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Author Topic: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency  (Read 84486 times)

Offline MileHigh

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1065 on: April 19, 2017, 06:36:53 AM »
To help understand this stuff, I am going to take a crack at a mechanical version of the parallel LC circuit acting as an infinite impedance at resonance.  However, next posting because this page has the wide sickness.

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Offline MileHigh

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1066 on: April 19, 2017, 06:37:51 AM »
Are we on a new page?   Okay a fresh start on a new page.

We know the parallel LC resonator acts like an infinite impedance at resonance.  That means no power flows trough it, and therefore it is a no load device.

Imagine a large vertical spring on the floor with a heavy weight on top of it.   When you push down on the weight and let go the system resonates up and down at it's natural frequency.

Let's suppose the natural frequency is quite low, say two cycles per second.  Now imagine a person siting next to the resonating weight and spring system.  Imagine his coordination is very good and his hand is over the weight and moving up and down in perfect sync with the oscillating weight.

So, what do you see?  It _looks_ like the person is making the weight resonate up and down, but it's a fake-out.  The person is not applying any pressure on the weight at all, the system is self-resonating.  The person is not doing any work at all.

The person's oscillating arm is the function generator set on sine wave.  To be specific the _velocity_ of the person's hand is in the form of a sine wave which is like the voltage, and if he had to apply pressure to the weight, that would be the current.

Now, let's make one concession to the real world because we know that the resonant system will decay over time if you don't put some mechanical power into it.  Let's ignore air friction and focus on the spring as a lossy spring.  The spring will heat up just like the proverbial bending of the coat hanger and that friction will dampen the resonant oscillation.

So in the "real world" as the person's hand follows the up and down sine wave motion of the weight, every now and then he applies just the tiniest amount of pressure to the weight to ensure that the resonance remains at the same amplitude.

So when the person puts just a little touch of mechanical power in the resonating spring and weight system to keep the amplitude stable and compensate for the resistive looses in the spring, likewise the function generator puts a little touch of electrical power into the parallel LC resonator to compensate for the resistive losses in the inductor.

That gives you a basic idea of what is talking place.  However, it really needs work to get it 100% bang on and I am not going there.  Likewise I am not going to delve into a mechanical equivalent of a series LC resonator.

The big takeaway is this "no power flow/no load" condition all only works at the resonant frequency where the excitation (moving hand) is a perfect sine wave.  If you deviate from that set of conditions it simply doesn't work.


Offline synchro1

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1067 on: April 19, 2017, 01:13:14 PM »
I just love it when you refute your own nonsense yourself, with information you find when finally googling the terms you misuse so flagrantly.
Nowhere in those various equivalent expressions for the Henry does an expression for ELECTRICAL POWER exist. ELECTRICAL POWER is measured in WATTS, the units of which are Joules/second. You will note that I TOLD YOU several times earlier that the Henry can be expressed as Joules/ampere2, which DOES appear in that chain of equivalent expressions. If a "negative henry" is "equivalent" to "watt-hour" as you have repeatedly claimed.... since the watt-hour is an expression of ENERGY NOT POWER...  you once again are getting all tangled up with your own claims and the solid refutations from the material you yourself post.

@Tinselkoala.

What do you call an ampere second at one volt? Joseph Henry defines the H as The amount of inductance (Coiled wire) it would require to generate one volt by varying a current by one ampere per second across the inductor.

Definition of Watt Hour:

"A Watt Hour is a measure of electrical energy equivalent to a power consumption of one watt for one hour".

You falsely state that a "Watt Hour" is energy but not power, when the truth is it's equal to power!

You twist the other very valuable word to cause the kind of Gnomic mischief you're notorious for? Who can find a negative when it's past zero? Coupled with compulsive adolescent insults and abuse, snickering to yourself, through your schlag covered face.

Offline synchro1

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1068 on: April 19, 2017, 01:35:07 PM »
Times up: The ampere second at one volt is a "Watt Second". A watt second times seconds and minutes (60)x(60)= 3600 watt seconds=One "Watt Hour". That's equal to a consumption of one Watt for one hour. A "Watt Hour" equals 3600 Coulombs.

Electrical power input to an induction coil generates a magnetic field. The field force measured in a coil of 1 Henry with one watt hour of power stored in it's magnetic field equals 1 Tesla of magnetic flux density.


Offline synchro1

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1069 on: April 19, 2017, 02:16:34 PM »
@Tinselkoala,

You need to start with the "Magnetic Coulomb" law:

"In physics, the magnetic Coulomb law is the magnetic equivalent of the electric Coulomb law".

"The magnitude of the electrostatic force of attraction between two point charges is directly proportional to the product of the magnitudes of charges and inversely proportional to the square of the distance between them".

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1069 on: April 19, 2017, 02:16:34 PM »
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Offline synchro1

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1070 on: April 19, 2017, 02:38:09 PM »
@Tinselkoala,

Ponder on this:

"The unit for magnetic reluctance is inverse henry, H−1".

"Magnetic reluctance, or magnetic resistance, is a concept used in the analysis of magnetic circuits. It is analogous to resistance in an electrical circuit, but rather than dissipating electric energy it stores magnetic energy".

Offline nelsonrochaa

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1071 on: April 19, 2017, 02:49:25 PM »
@Tinselkoala.

What do you call an ampere second at one volt? Joseph Henry defines the H as The amount of inductance (Coiled wire) it would require to generate one volt by varying a current by one ampere per second across the inductor.

Definition of Watt Hour:

"A Watt Hour is a measure of electrical energy equivalent to a power consumption of one watt for one hour".

You falsely state that a "Watt Hour" is energy but not power, when the truth is it's equal to power!

You twist the other very valuable word to cause the kind of Gnomic mischief you're notorious for? Who can find a negative when it's past zero? Coupled with compulsive adolescent insults and abuse, snickering to yourself, through your schlag covered face.


I think that exist a misunderstood or a fault of communication about this subject . Watt and Wh have different definitions .

A watt (W) is a unit of power, and power is the rate at which energy (joules) is produced or consumed in a second .

A watt-hour (Wh) is a unit of energy; it’s a way to measure the amount of work performed or generated  in one hour
 joules X time 3600S =Wh   

watt-hours measure amounts of energy for the specific period of time of one hour, and watts measure rates of power at a moment in time.

Just to clarify

Nelson Rocha

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1071 on: April 19, 2017, 02:49:25 PM »
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Offline synchro1

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1072 on: April 19, 2017, 02:59:49 PM »
@nelsonrochaa,

Thanks for the clarification. Consider this:


"Ørsted discovered the connection between magnetism and electric current when a magnetic field produced by a current-carrying copper bar deflected a magnetised needle during a lecture demonstration".


"In the CGS system, the unit of the H-field is the oersted and the unit of the B‑field is the gauss. In the SI system, the unit ampere per meter (A/m), which is equivalent to newton/weber, is used for the H‑field and the unit of tesla is used for the B‑field".

"H is measured in units of amperes per meter (symbol: A⋅m−1 or A/m) in the SI. B is measured in teslas (symbol: T)".


This is what you need to understand: The H field is an electrical equivalent and the B field a magnetic one.

Offline synchro1

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1073 on: April 19, 2017, 03:18:05 PM »
Coulomb's "Law of magnetics" helped couple the "Oersted" as a measure of electrical current H field, with the Gauss B field, a measure of magnetic strength. This is the base equivalency unit of Joseph Henries formula.

Offline Magluvin

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1074 on: April 19, 2017, 03:26:51 PM »

I think that exist a misunderstood or a fault of communication about this subject . Watt and Wh have different definitions .

A watt (W) is a unit of power, and power is the rate at which energy (joules) is produced or consumed in a second .

A watt-hour (Wh) is a unit of energy; it’s a way to measure the amount of work performed or generated  in one hour
 joules X time 3600S =Wh   

watt-hours measure amounts of energy for the specific period of time of one hour, and watts measure rates of power at a moment in time.

Just to clarify

Nelson Rocha

Hey nelson

From your description it would seem they are the same as in a measurement in time, where one is over the period of an hour but the other is over the period of 1 second.

Like there may be special reasoning for using one or the other where the Wh there may be many ups and downs and it gives us an average use over the hour time period and the W would more than likely be a more consistent power usage over the period of 1 sec. But it seems more like the same measurement, just one is kilograms and the other is just grams in analogy to time as in hour and 1 sec where they both are just scaled for sake of making numbers smaller like 1Mw or saying 1,000,000w.  or having to say 1/60 of an hour instead of 1 sec.

So it seems you could interchange the Wh and W in some formula just the ref to time of each would be the end result.

Mags

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1074 on: April 19, 2017, 03:26:51 PM »
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Offline synchro1

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1075 on: April 19, 2017, 03:31:37 PM »
Hey nelson

From your description it would seem they are the same as in a measurement in time, where one is over the period of an hour but the other is over the period of 1 second.

Like there may be special reasoning for using one or the other where the Wh there may be many ups and downs and it gives us an average use over the hour time period and the W would more than likely be a more consistent power usage over the period of 1 sec. But it seems more like the same measurement, just one is kilograms and the other is just grams in analogy to time as in hour and 1 sec where they both are just scaled for sake of making numbers smaller like 1Mw or saying 1,000,000w.  or having to say 1/60 of an hour instead of 1 sec.

So it seems you could interchange the Wh and W in some formula just the ref to time of each would be the end result.

Mags

@Mags,

Exactly! Same SI units.

Offline webby1

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1076 on: April 19, 2017, 03:40:51 PM »

So it seems you could interchange the Wh and W in some formula just the ref to time of each would be the end result.

Mags

How would you choose to denote the energy exchange in a single cycle as compared to many cycles?

If I have 1V @ 1A for a single cycle is that the same as for 1000 cycles?

If that single  cycle takes 1 second,, or if the 1000 cycles take 1 second,, how would you compare them?


Offline synchro1

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1077 on: April 19, 2017, 03:44:43 PM »
                                                          1 Gauss ≒ 1 Oersted.

  Factor that into your "Dervish Account"!

Offline Magluvin

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1078 on: April 19, 2017, 03:57:35 PM »
How would you choose to denote the energy exchange in a single cycle as compared to many cycles?

If I have 1V @ 1A for a single cycle is that the same as for 1000 cycles?

If that single  cycle takes 1 second,, or if the 1000 cycles take 1 second,, how would you compare them?

I was just interpreting what I think Nelson was saying. watt is a watt, and the difference between the Wh and W according to nelson they are the same just read over different periods of time. So it is like saying that the Kg is not the same as mg in a way.

I suppose you would have to average them out. Id say as long as you have at least 1 full ac cycle that the average should equate to that fraction of an hour if it were measured in 1 sec. If in 1 sec you only measured 1/4 wave of the ac cycle, that would not give an accurate depiction of power used over a longer period of time. Thus the Wh? 

Mags


Offline itsu

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1079 on: April 19, 2017, 04:07:11 PM »

Quote
Quote from: tinman on April 18, 2017, 10:26:14 AM

TK

Are you able to power a small load(E.G an LED) from a pickup coil(secondary) placed on top of the BPC,without it effecting this zero voltage across your CVR.?

Brad


No, when powering a LED load at the TBF's resonant frequency the CVR voltage trace does not quite "flatline" any more, it indicates about half a milliamp at flattest. This is with just enough amplitude of the signal input to the TBF to produce a slight glow in the LED. Of course if I go off the resonant frequency I can get a lot more power to drive the LED much more brightly from the pickup coil, especially if I go to the pickup coil's own resonant frequency, as the previous frequency scans show. The CVR trace grows then too. 

Here's a scopeshot of the "flattest" CVR line while powering a slightly glowing LED from the pickup coil. Yellow=CVR trace, with the current value shown being a little smaller than actual because the scope thinks I'm using a 10 ohm CVR but actually I'm using 9.4 ohms. Blue = across LED and pickup coil.

Trying that too shows that my led on the pickup coil does not light up when at the resonance frequency (313KHz) of the TBP coil.
When shifting the frequency to the pickup coil resonance frequency (2.5Mhz), it does light up the led.

Adding a 3nF cap parallel to the pickup coil / led lowers the resonance frequency to 313Khz which is where the TBP coil resonance frequency was
and now does light up the led brightly on 313Khz.

However, the resonance frequency of the TBP coil now has shifted to 389Khz, so no more flatlined current / resonance at 313Khz.

Its like pressing a balloon, it gives way, but expands somewhere else.

Itsu

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1079 on: April 19, 2017, 04:07:11 PM »

 

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