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Author Topic: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency  (Read 56525 times)

Offline synchro1

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #45 on: March 24, 2017, 08:34:35 PM »
We don't know how that so called Tesla bifilar is connected. There's a strong chance it's hairpin not serial. Secondly, "The old scientist" meant to say "Inductance" and used the term "Resistance" by mistake, largely because he has English for a second language.

I'm explaining why my Tesla bifilar picked up twice the trombone clips in my video. No one ever offered an alternative explanation, nor has anyone ever been able to replicate the test.

"When you have a bifilar pair like this, you can measure the inductance of one of the coils, ignoring the other; call that value of inductance L.

Now, if the two coils are connected in series aiding configuration, the inductance will be 4*L.

If they are connected the other way, series opposing, the inductance of the combination will be very small".


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Offline synchro1

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #46 on: March 24, 2017, 09:51:26 PM »
MH & TK,

I just tested a biflar for inductance in Henries and resistance in Ohms. The inductance of each coil separately is 1.45 mh apiece or L. The inductance of the serial connected bifilar (Beginning of one coil wire to the end wire of the other) measured at 5.81 mh. That's four times the inductance of one individual coil. The inductance of the serial connection is 4 L. The inductance of the hairpin connection is equal to .725 mh or 1/2 L. Resistance of each coil separately is 2.5 Ohms or R. Serial and hairpin connections both equal 5 Ohms, or 2 R.

I can upload a definitive video and put an end to this controversy once and for all. Any more wise guy back talk from you two trolls?

The inductance of the hairpin (Beginning of one coil wire to the beginning of the other) is 1/2 the inductance of one individual coil. That equals 8 times the difference in inductance in Henries between the two alternative possible bifilar connections! An enormous difference. Hold the pickles!


Offline MileHigh

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #47 on: March 24, 2017, 10:50:55 PM »
The inductance of a coil is proportional to the square of the number of the turns.  A 100-turn coil will have four times the inductance of a 50-turn coil.

A 100-turn regular coil will have the same inductance as a series-bifilar coil consisting of 50 turns in series with 50 turns.  TK posted pictures of a regular coil and an equivalent series-bifilar coil connected to an inductance meter where the inductance meter shows the same number of Henries for each coil.

Offline synchro1

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #48 on: March 24, 2017, 11:02:48 PM »
The inductance of a coil is proportional to the square of the number of the turns.  A 100-turn coil will have four times the inductance of a 50-turn coil.

A 100-turn regular coil will have the same inductance as a series-bifilar coil consisting of 50 turns in series with 50 turns.  TK posted pictures of a regular coil and an equivalent series-bifilar coil connected to an inductance meter where the inductance meter shows the same number of Henries for each coil.

Milehigh,

Hey...Wind one and measure it for yourself as I just did then get back with your results. TK's inductance meter is "A Piece of Crap" China Palace back ally trash salvage midnight special!


Offline nelsonrochaa

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #49 on: March 24, 2017, 11:23:31 PM »
Milehigh,

Hey...Wind one and measure it for yourself as I just did then get back with your results.

Ahhh ! One of the best things i ear in that topic :)  Good shot synchro1 , sometimes someone need to say some trues , to some fellows that simple not show nothing all this years but only open so large their mouth to criticize the nice work of persons like TheOldScientist without even think they not contribute in nothing make that type of considerations . Seems they have special pleasure put dislike in videos and make bad considerations about valid works. Real sad see that type of behavior .

really sad


Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #49 on: March 24, 2017, 11:23:31 PM »
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Offline AlienGrey

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #50 on: March 24, 2017, 11:43:20 PM »
Ahhh ! One of the best things i ear in that topic :)  Good shot synchro1 , sometimes someone need to say some trues , to some fellows that simple not show nothing all this years but only open so large their mouth to criticize the nice work of persons like TheOldScientist without even think they not contribute in nothing make that type of considerations . Seems they have special pleasure put dislike in videos and make bad considerations about valid works. Real sad see that type of behavior .

really sad
Hi Nelson well it looks like we are on a learning curve here for through's coil winders who didn't know and the mothers who didn't teach manners and respect off other inner souls into there kids.


Offline MileHigh

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #51 on: March 24, 2017, 11:47:09 PM »
Ahhh ! One of the best things i ear in that topic :)  Good shot synchro1 , sometimes someone need to say some trues , to some fellows that simple not show nothing all this years but only open so large their mouth to criticize the nice work of persons like TheOldScientist without even think they not contribute in nothing make that type of considerations . Seems they have special pleasure put dislike in videos and make bad considerations about valid works. Real sad see that type of behavior .

really sad

No Nelson, that was a fair criticism of TheOldScienist.  I take no pleasure in it, but it is a service to people that may not know for themselves.  If you want to buy a car and you know nothing about cars you get your friend that knows about cars to help you make a purchase.  This makes sense, correct?  The same thing applies here.  Like it or not, TheOldScientist's clip is a bad clip.  When you excite a coil with sine waves, the response from the coil should be sine waves.  This is FACT, and clearly there was a MAJOR PROBLEM in TheOldScientist's clip and he did not even mention it.  So you need to understand and acknowledge this.  No person's work is free from critique and I have looked at many of TheOldScientist's clips and I have not been impressed by most of them.

Back to coils.  Why is the inductance of a coil proportional to the square of the number of turns?  I did the experiment a long time ago, and I am not going to do it today.

You can also use your intellect to answer the question and actually understand WHY, and not just accept it as another "rule."  This clip answers the questions HOW and WHY:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z85J5eW1C1A

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #51 on: March 24, 2017, 11:47:09 PM »
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Offline gyulasun

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #52 on: March 25, 2017, 12:32:18 AM »
synchro1,

If you have a bifilar coil and you measured 1.45mH for any one of the windings out of the two and then you measure 5.81mH for the two windings in series connection as you wrote then there is nothing wrong: you are correct with this.

The problem is not this but as follows:
if you make a single wire coil with the same amount of wire you used for the two bifilar windings  i.e. the DC resistance of this single wire coil would be also 5 Ohm (same wire length and same wire OD like the two windings together have in the bifilar) and the mechanical sizes such as the diameter and the length of this coil would be nicely comparable to that of your bifilar coil,
then what L inductance do you think you would measure for this single wire coil?

Because this is the real question here to answer, right?

The answer is you would measure pretty close to the 5.81mH L value. 

I built two such coils, one with a single wire from say 10m long piece of wire, label it as coil A and then I made a bifilar coil from 2 x 5m long wires guided in parallel and connected the two wires in series as you wrote, label this as coil B. I measured very nearly identical L inductances for coil A and coil B. Back then this comparison was done not only by me but Magluvin and TinselKoala: we demonstrated this and you continuously criticised all 3 of us, often with rude words. Three persons separately cannot have crappy L meters.  :o

Remember what you wrote in your post #33 above:

"Tesla bifilar coils have twice the inductance of single wire coils of the same gauge and copper weight" 

why I quoted this (though the first part of it is not correct) is that it shows you are aware of the condition: the single wire coil should have the same copper weight as the two windings have in the bifilar coil, hence this should mean the length of the wire used for the single wire coil and the added length of the two windings in the bifilar coil should be equal and of the same wire gauge. 

Please demonstrate the measured L inductance of your single wire coil wound with the conditions above.
It is fine you tested your bifilar coil inductance for the individual windings and for their series connection. This latter nicely justifies that if you double the number of turns you get 4 times the inductance, right?


Gyula

Offline nelsonrochaa

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #53 on: March 25, 2017, 01:04:44 AM »
No Nelson, that was a fair criticism of TheOldScienist.  I take no pleasure in it, but it is a service to people that may not know for themselves.  If you want to buy a car and you know nothing about cars you get your friend that knows about cars to help you make a purchase.  This makes sense, correct?  The same thing applies here.  Like it or not, TheOldScientist's clip is a bad clip.  When you excite a coil with sine waves, the response from the coil should be sine waves.  This is FACT, and clearly there was a MAJOR PROBLEM in TheOldScientist's clip and he did not even mention it.  So you need to understand and acknowledge this.  No person's work is free from critique and I have looked at many of TheOldScientist's clips and I have not been impressed by most of them.

Back to coils.  Why is the inductance of a coil proportional to the square of the number of turns?  I did the experiment a long time ago, and I am not going to do it today.

You can also use your intellect to answer the question and actually understand WHY, and not just accept it as another "rule."  This clip answers the questions HOW and WHY:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z85J5eW1C1A

MH Solenoids coils and pancake coils have different behavior because their self induction are different , so you simple can not compare in the same perspective when measure a solenoid normal coil or bifilar pancake coil .
About you saying  TheOldScientist's are feeding the coils with a sine wave how you have so sure about that ? Could be a square wave and is for sure . He talk about the resonance frequency coil , and to me is clear that if we feed a pancake bifilar coil  even with a square wave when is in resonance frequency , the output will be a sine wave even ljagged scope traces like you say .
like you told   "Sorry, but I personally have very low confidence in TheOldScientist" i feel exactly the same in relation to you .
What is depreciate is you say He is free energy clickbait when he share some of the best videos explanation that you could find in youtube .
Maybe because comments like yours he close the channel only to a particular subscribers this is clickbait ? I think not .
There you have a jagged scope feed by a square wave .
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J1wMalWqa7o

Offline skycollection 1

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #54 on: March 25, 2017, 01:33:53 AM »
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uiLgM3EkQBE
With this bifilar pancake coil i can charge the 12 v battery without magnet rotor, can you describe this experiment...?

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #54 on: March 25, 2017, 01:33:53 AM »
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Offline MileHigh

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #55 on: March 25, 2017, 04:38:04 AM »
MH Solenoids coils and pancake coils have different behavior because their self induction are different , so you simple can not compare in the same perspective when measure a solenoid normal coil or bifilar pancake coil .
About you saying  TheOldScientist's are feeding the coils with a sine wave how you have so sure about that ? Could be a square wave and is for sure . He talk about the resonance frequency coil , and to me is clear that if we feed a pancake bifilar coil  even with a square wave when is in resonance frequency , the output will be a sine wave even ljagged scope traces like you say .
like you told   "Sorry, but I personally have very low confidence in TheOldScientist" i feel exactly the same in relation to you .
What is depreciate is you say He is free energy clickbait when he share some of the best videos explanation that you could find in youtube .
Maybe because comments like yours he close the channel only to a particular subscribers this is clickbait ? I think not .
There you have a jagged scope feed by a square wave .
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J1wMalWqa7o

On a fundamental level, solenoid coils and pancake coils are not different.  Their behaviour is fundamentally the same.  There will be observable differences between different solenoid coils and different pancake coils in terms of resonant frequencies and the shape of the magnetic fields around the coils and other parameters, but these are best defined as characteristics and not as real differences.  It's important for experimenters to realize this.  You are suggesting that they can't be compared and their behaviour is different.  What specifically are you talking about?

For TheOldScientist, when you look for a self-resonant frequency for a coil, you must use sine waves and if your scope trace is not displaying a sine wave something is wrong.  If you don't know why you have to use a sine wave you can discuss this with your friends on the forum.  He made a mistake with respect to his resistance reading.  What have you become if you can't even state that someone made a mistake making a resistance measurement?  If you understand how wire resistance works, how could you come to any other possible conclusion?

What you want to do is get past being upset about what I said about the TheOldScientist clip and instead understand why I said what I said and appreciate it and understand it.  My comments were true, valid comments.  If he did the clip differently and did a great job then I would have said that he did a great job.

Offline synchro1

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #56 on: March 25, 2017, 07:16:37 AM »
synchro1,

If you have a bifilar coil and you measured 1.45mH for any one of the windings out of the two and then you measure 5.81mH for the two windings in series connection as you wrote then there is nothing wrong: you are correct with this.

The problem is not this but as follows:
if you make a single wire coil with the same amount of wire you used for the two bifilar windings  i.e. the DC resistance of this single wire coil would be also 5 Ohm (same wire length and same wire OD like the two windings together have in the bifilar) and the mechanical sizes such as the diameter and the length of this coil would be nicely comparable to that of your bifilar coil,
then what L inductance do you think you would measure for this single wire coil?

Because this is the real question here to answer, right?

The answer is you would measure pretty close to the 5.81mH L value. 

I built two such coils, one with a single wire from say 10m long piece of wire, label it as coil A and then I made a bifilar coil from 2 x 5m long wires guided in parallel and connected the two wires in series as you wrote, label this as coil B. I measured very nearly identical L inductances for coil A and coil B. Back then this comparison was done not only by me but Magluvin and TinselKoala: we demonstrated this and you continuously criticised all 3 of us, often with rude words. Three persons separately cannot have crappy L meters.  :o

Remember what you wrote in your post #33 above:

"Tesla bifilar coils have twice the inductance of single wire coils of the same gauge and copper weight" 

why I quoted this (though the first part of it is not correct) is that it shows you are aware of the condition: the single wire coil should have the same copper weight as the two windings have in the bifilar coil, hence this should mean the length of the wire used for the single wire coil and the added length of the two windings in the bifilar coil should be equal and of the same wire gauge. 

Please demonstrate the measured L inductance of your single wire coil wound with the conditions above.
It is fine you tested your bifilar coil inductance for the individual windings and for their series connection. This latter nicely justifies that if you double the number of turns you get 4 times the inductance, right?


Gyula

Gyula,

Please take a very close look at Gotoluc's "Self running coil #15":

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N8BehANEVUo


Offline synchro1

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #57 on: March 25, 2017, 08:53:44 AM »
Gyula,

I just wound a single wire coil of the same gauge on an identical bobbin and measured the Ohms and Inductance. The test results show that you're right as regards the air core coils. I could only fit 4 Ohms worth of wire on the bobbin. The inductance was 4.3 mh. The serial bifilar at 5 Ohms delivered  5.81 mh. The ratio is pretty close at 1.162 mh per Ohm for the serial bifilar and 1.05 mh per Ohm for the single wire coil. There's clearly no where near the 100% difference Gotoluc measures with his ferrite toroid coils. nor the twice the magnetic strength my iron nail core serial bifilar demonstrated. The sloppy lash wrap of my single wire coil accounts for the slightly lower inductance to Ohms ratio. I concede that TK's measurements are correct and that his meter is functional.

It appears the ferrite core plays a critical role in the doubling of inductance with this Tesla bifilar connection. Maybe TK can run a ferrite core into his bore holes and make comparison measurements for us to help.

Offline nelsonrochaa

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #58 on: March 25, 2017, 09:29:42 AM »
On a fundamental level, solenoid coils and pancake coils are not different.  Their behaviour is fundamentally the same.  There will be observable differences between different solenoid coils and different pancake coils in terms of resonant frequencies and the shape of the magnetic fields around the coils and other parameters, but these are best defined as characteristics and not as real differences.  It's important for experimenters to realize this.  You are suggesting that they can't be compared and their behaviour is different.  What specifically are you talking about?

For TheOldScientist, when you look for a self-resonant frequency for a coil, you must use sine waves and if your scope trace is not displaying a sine wave something is wrong.  If you don't know why you have to use a sine wave you can discuss this with your friends on the forum.  He made a mistake with respect to his resistance reading.  What have you become if you can't even state that someone made a mistake making a resistance measurement?  If you understand how wire resistance works, how could you come to any other possible conclusion?

What you want to do is get past being upset about what I said about the TheOldScientist clip and instead understand why I said what I said and appreciate it and understand it.  My comments were true, valid comments.  If he did the clip differently and did a great job then I would have said that he did a great job.

No MH is not my intention become upset about what you said, i just give a opinion in the same coin like when you answer in that mode , but you have the right of don't like their videos or from others for sure  .

About i say that solenoid coils and pancake coils are different i maintain what i said .

A bifilar pancake coil is capable of holding more charge than a single wound coil and that is known .
When this coils are operated at resonance, the distributed capacitance on the bifilar  overcome the counter electromotive force that normal is find in conventional coils .
Seems i really don't know what is resistance need to learn again , but seems to,  that you talk about this particular subject of bifilar pancake coils without any practical experience, but just by heart or based in what you hear.

The topic is "The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency "    and i tell you that is possible match their resonance coil with a square wave where the output will become a sinus wave , and myself are exactly discuss on that perspective .

 Did Tesla use a sine wave to feed that type coils ?  i think not  :) you invented the flat pancake coil ?

It's important for experimenters to realize that they simple can not assume something only because persons like you are not able to view more deeply some of aspects of bifilar pancake coil that are denied .
But persons like you that use the sentence  " carved in stone" to justify something without testing ,for sure will take their stubbornness to their grave stone too.

I already say to you in other occasion but i will repeat myself :
fool is the one who thinks already knows everything closing the "window" to learn and improve their wisdom.

Have a nice day MH

 



Offline synchro1

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #59 on: March 25, 2017, 10:22:22 AM »
I wrapped a high perm ferrite rod of 1000, with a bifilar coil, shocked the coil and measured a steady rise in Ohmic coil resistance over 24 hours. A "Mag Amp" effect. I concluded that the bifilar resonance was magnetizing the ferrite core free of charge. This was the theory I used to explain the "Impulse Magnetization" of the iorn nail. I spent a long time explaining this effect in my earlier threads.

I called the "Tesla Coil Builder" bifilar test a parlor trick, because as I revealed, the nails alone without the coils attached to the battery, differed in permanent magnet strength by a factor of 2.

I "Impulse Shocked" both nail core coils, then they sat over night. I noticed the difference the following day, and set about trying to explain the effect. I proposed the electron alignment theory that explains how the bifilar ferrite core resonance actually transmutes the core into a higher isotope. This effect has nothing what-so-ever to do with the kind of power supply to the coil TK is imagining.

This effect is the "Magic" of the bifilar, and Gotoluc's double inductance measurements and self running coil effect tie into it. "Evostars" demonstrates conclusively in his video tests, that the magnetic field of the series bifilar coil in resonance is "Outside the Coil"!

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #59 on: March 25, 2017, 10:22:22 AM »

 

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