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Author Topic: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency  (Read 163295 times)

Offline Grumage

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1185 on: April 24, 2017, 02:17:25 PM »
Well, thanks to Dog-One.....

This might just be the device to hit them with?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QiCD2LJjA-A

Cheers Grum.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy


Offline tinman

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1186 on: April 24, 2017, 03:10:29 PM »
Hey brad

"Maybe have a read of a few of erfinder's post's,and you will see that MHs aint so bad."

But since the other day he has cleaned it up and i reflected that here already. As far as Im concerned he is fine as maybe he does not divulge his way of using the coils, he does intrigue optimism that I want to see more of. If there is something more to try with this then that is what needs to come next, as tk is done, and you agree with MH now that there is nothing more to see. Thats not the brad I thought I knew. The Brad that comes up with out of the box ideas on things that captures everyones attn. Where did ya go?  Miss ya.


'I have read all of this thread,as it continue's,and all i see is MH stating what is obvious."

Lets agree that i did say when I first entered here that i believe that there is something other than the resonant freq that we need to look at. The title of the thread does not make a claim. It names a thread on the subject. So I may have to open a new thread to avoid the resonance issue being at the chopper.  And when I or Er say something that tries to point out that there are other things to try, MH pounces on that as if he knows all else above all others imaginations. BS man, bs.

Now if you call it quits and are finished as you have not found there to be any advantages to the bifi at resonance, only by redoing others experiments, I have to sigh.


"There is so much hipe over the BPC,and yet,no one to date has shown that there is anything wonderful about it.
Sure,we get the !erfinder's! continual rant's,on how wonderful it is,but he hasnt been able to back up his rambling's with a single thing of substance-as is the case in every thread he is in--the nothingness of everything."

MH says there is nothing more to try. Nothing. ER says there is.  MH puts together examples using false data, where the outcome always leans even more in his favor . Er has not provided falsities that anyone can point out so far. I have found the ER will let you know if you are going in the right direction, just that you have to ask the right questions. Im ok with that. If it all turns out bunk then you can say otherwise. Mh will daily press that there are no more directions to go. Like is that warming on you here?? You removed ERs post, but mh gets to run nelson off and just puke on every new thought that arrives. Let me ask you. Just because ER does not tell you much and considering what you have seen of his vids, would you absolutely agree with MH that he does not know how a coil works??? if so, you are scaring me now. Is the world flat? Does the earth rotate around the sun?? If not, got proof?  Well back when these discoveries, earth ball, sun is the center of solar system, there were those that argued it based on the tight box surrounding them, not an open mind to new possibilities.


"So far,the only thing i see that is great about it(the BPC),is the name behind it--Tesla."

So far that is all we have tried is resonance tests and some inductive coupling tests, of which there has to be more to diversify the tests. But thats fine if you agree with mh that there is no further to go. Im not in that lot.  Ive been on and off on the bifi. Im slow. It most likely takes me more time to 'write' this stuff than most let alone... I have a deeper view of it than I ever had as in the details that make it something much different than a single wire coil or even a typical LC. Ive stated my new views and have more to state, as i get time.


"Mag's,i trust in you,and so i ask you--do you,or have you found anything interesting about the BPC yet?,that dose not exist in an ordinary coil."

I listed a couple things earlier..

Test transformer action between windings

Test with pulsed input. Not square wave where it it on and then held to 0v, pulse and let it go, spark gap, quenched or not, or some other ideas that are out there.

Test for the possibility of the internal capacitance charging before the inductor allows current to flow.  If it charges, did current flow without the impedance of the inductance? etc

Those are not ridiculous ideas. Thats just 3 things and there are more.

Im working on the idea of the possibility of 3 different voltage levels possible due to the capacitance mod of the bifi. It is in the works as to how to go about testing for that.  Yeah it is just a theory so far, but that is what we need is new things to do, not there is nothing more to see. If thats what most all this has come to then the free energy was just an imaginary fad and is fading away.

Just because nothing so far has been found does not mean that it is not there as MH presses as a certainty day in and day out.


"I know we have an even potential voltage difference between turns-unlike other coils,but what dose that do,that sets it apart from any other coil?"

I see the fact that the capacitance IS in the coil as a different thing than having a separate cap and coil of an lc..  It operates as a parallel, but would seem to be series also if we look at it electrically, the cap can only charge through the body of the coil. How does the greater charge difference between turns affect the induction, and like I said earlier, the ones that claim E field is how induction works, wouldnt one think that the field between turns of a bifi and a normal coil to possibly have a huge effect on that idea, yet it doesnt show so far?

I dont believe that the capacitance is literally increased as much as the fact that the wiring arrangement helps provide a much higher voltage level compared to a single wire coil making that capacitance capable of higher capacity because of the augmented voltage differences for each. 

There is always more to do. So maybe we make a new thread that looks beyond resonance, or we can just keep on going here.


"You know i have two identical coils(one a BPC,and the other a single wound coil),in that they have the same amount of wire,the same kind of wire,and the same physical size.
The only thing i have found different between the two,is the BPC has a lower resonant frequency-by about 26.5KHz. Other than that,they both perform the same in every way i have tested them."

I had posted a thing to try. Did TK do this already?....

Im under the impression that the bifi has a couple different capacitances and that the bifi has the augmented voltage between turns, but it also has the same capacitance between turns between end to end of the coil. So I think the bifi of the same dimensions and wire can also resonate at the same freq as the single wire coil. if so does the augmented voltage between turns also occur if it does ring up in that range? Will it be able to couple better to the single wire coil? Anything there?  Who knows? MH??  He tries to crush imagination prospects. I do not agree with that attitude at all.

Otto used to tune his coils by slightly adjusting the length of the wires, like nip a bit off at a time till it is in tune.  Where an unravel a bit at a time can do it also.


Things to do, things to do.

I gota git.

Mags

I will reply to the highlighted in your post.

I asked Er politely to refrain from using foul language,and he refused to do so.
So,the only posts i removed of Er's,was the ones that contained the profanities i asked him not to use.

If MH uses such language,then i will remove those posts as well.

My question to you.
We have many-many very smart people on this planet,who deal with, design,and implement efficient energy storage and transfer systems for a living.
If the BPC outperformed any other type of coil/inductor,in any type of application,then why do we not have them in every day devices-or even top end devices for that matter.
In fact,is there any marketed device today,that uses a BPC in it?

Second
As far as energy storage go's,i can guarantee as standard solenoid coil with a core,will store more energy,and give back more energy,for a lower energy input,than any BPC.

Why !ATM! do i agree with MH ?
Well that is very easy to answer.
First-through my own testing,i have found nothing about the BPC,that is better in any way than a normal single wound coil.

Second-there are so many here,who keep on about how great a thing the BPC is,and give those that believe that there is nothing special about it-a hard time-->,but not one(not one) person here,has been able to show anything that makes the BPC a cut above the rest-not one thing.

As you know,i have two coils that are identical in every way,except one is a BPC,and the other is a single wound coil.
To date,with all the different types of tests i have carried out with these coil's,i have not found one single test,where the BPC outperformed the single wound coil.

So that is why i agree with MH ATM,as i do have two identical coil's,and i can and have run !side by side ! tests with these coil,and the results speak for them self.

How many others here,have two such coil's,that are identical in every way,except one is a BPC,and the other a single wound coil,and have done side by side comparison tests?.

If there is some one who dose,and has found something that the BPC leads the way in,then share it here with us,so as the rest of us can have a look for our selves.


Brad

Offline tinman

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1187 on: April 24, 2017, 03:12:48 PM »
>:(  there are so many people there with many useful tools around and why nobody just check the magnetic field of bifilar pancake coil at resonant frequency ?

I have done just that,and the BPC has no advantage over my single wound coil,of the same size,same wire,and same length of wire.


Brad

Offline tinman

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1188 on: April 24, 2017, 03:38:08 PM »
Still not seeing it yet?

Have you checked this thread?

Observe the pancake coil carefully.  Do you see any core?  Where do you suppose the energy
(or whatever you would like to refer to it as) is being stored?

Capacity my friend, think about what that must be.  Try substituting the word "capacity" for
"ability to __________".

Hint:  Jack fills in the blank in this post.

I do not think high capacitance in a coil is a good thing.
What happens when you do a cap to cap transfer of the stored energy?--yes,you loose half of that energy. So who's to say that the same is not going to happen with the energy stored by capacitance within the BPC ?
You are far better to store the energy by way of a magnetic field,where the only loss is ohmic

Quote
pulling-energy-from-the-ambient-energy-field-using-a-coil-capacitor

This is voodoo talk,and been doing the rounds as long as i can remember.
Where is there a video and evidence,showing this !ambient! energy being pulled into the system?.

You know me--im all ear's,and ready to build anything that some one want me to try out--like that over expensive,over modified,time consuming joule thief- called the parametric oscillator.

There are(i believe) two !out of the box! free energy supplies that are yet to be looked deeply into.
1-Permanent magnet's-->millions of microscopic engines running 24/7,for 100s of year's,keeping the permanent magnetic field up and running.

2-Water-->2 parts fuel,and 1 part oxidizer,where the fuel happens to be hydrogen. What happens when we split the hydrogen atom ?

Anyway,as you know,i have the two identical coils,where one is a BPC,and the other is a single wound coil.
If you have something you would like me to try,in regards the the BPC,then i am ready to go.


Brad

Online synchro1

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1189 on: April 24, 2017, 04:00:58 PM »
Tesla states that the series bifilar pancake coil generates 250,000 times the electrical potential as the single wire coil of equal turns. He goes on to state that it's the elevated charge storage that cancels the self inductance at any input current or frequency; Hence, as evostars points out, the bifilar "Never Generates Any Flyback"!

The biflar coil generates a stronger magnetic field than the single wire coil when it's pulsed, as I've been pointing out for over eight years.

Pulsing the iron nail core through the single wire coil, first produces a "Positive" current, then when the current's interrupted, a "Negative Current" pulse follows. This cancels the "Impulse Magnetization" effect.

The series bifilar doesn't generate a negative "Cancellation Pulse".

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1189 on: April 24, 2017, 04:00:58 PM »
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Offline webby1

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1190 on: April 24, 2017, 04:57:54 PM »
I do not think high capacitance in a coil is a good thing.
What happens when you do a cap to cap transfer of the stored energy?--yes,you loose half of that energy.

You only loose it if you let it get lost.

Quote
So who's to say that the same is not going to happen with the energy stored by capacitance within the BPC ?
You are far better to store the energy by way of a magnetic field,where the only loss is ohmic

Brad

What if the transfer is not a dump?
What if you are not "storing" the energy?

Offline tinman

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1191 on: April 24, 2017, 05:22:07 PM »
You only loose it if you let it get lost.

What if the transfer is not a dump?
What if you are not "storing" the energy?

What dose a capacitor do?-stores energy.
If you do not want to store energy,then why do you need a high capacitance value in the coil?


Brad

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1191 on: April 24, 2017, 05:22:07 PM »
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Offline partzman

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1192 on: April 24, 2017, 05:30:23 PM »
FWIW, attached is a sim of a TBP coil modeled as a cross coupled symmetrical transmission line which hopefully will answer some questions about the uniqueness of this device.  This sim was based on parameters supplied by TK and are as follows- individual winding inductances are 172uH and 176uH, the series connected inductance is 680uH, capacitance between windings is 2.8nf, and the DCR is 3.9 ohms.  When the sim and TK's TBP bench results were compared, they were within ~1.5%.

TBP_1A shows the plot sweep from ~50kHz to 1.25MHz and as can be seen there are 2 dips and 1 peak in Vout across the 1 ohm sense resistor.  There is also a trace showing the sum of the all the currents in the odd inductors L1-L23 over time representing one winding of the TBP and the other line is identical but not shown for clarity.  Also, the 10v peak input voltage Vin from the generator is divided by 100 for plot clarity.

TBP_2A shows an expanded view of the first dip in output voltage/current in Vout across/thru R1.  The frequency is ~277kHz, Vout is ~561uv rms, while the total current in the odd L's is ~140ma rms.  This shows the apparent output current to ground of the TBP to be nearly zero while there is still induction in both windings which would be detectable with a separate sense coil in proximity.

TBP_3A shows an expanded view of the 1st peak in output current at 505kHz plus the levels of output voltage and the odd L's winding current.

Regards,

PM

Edit: Added 'cross coupled'.

Online ramset

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1193 on: April 24, 2017, 05:37:36 PM »
Partzman

It is unfortunate that TK is one of the Builders who has left this forum

issues with member Synchro and most recently This Fellow Zephir's
TOS violations.


Offline webby1

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1194 on: April 24, 2017, 05:56:15 PM »
What dose a capacitor do?-stores energy.
If you do not want to store energy,then why do you need a high capacitance value in the coil?


Brad

It can "store" energy as well as it can "transfer" energy.

I was playing with multi-plate caps,, well,, you can charge up one set of plates and another set of plates within that cap can also get "charged" up.

Does it not make a little bit of sense that if you charge the dielectric that a plate or two might respond and react to the change in the dielectric?

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1194 on: April 24, 2017, 05:56:15 PM »
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Offline webby1

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1195 on: April 24, 2017, 05:59:23 PM »
FWIW, attached is a sim of a TBP coil modeled as a cross coupled symmetrical transmission line which hopefully will answer some questions about the uniqueness of this device.

Could you put that in newbie terms?

I think you are saying that almost no current flow and yet there is still an induction transfer?

Offline webby1

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1196 on: April 24, 2017, 07:50:07 PM »
I see natural events all around that are upon themselves a constant change,, and thus no change.  Interfere with this and you make a change.

The caution was on the out-gasses that might be produced,, I did not consider what other things may come about from using an open system as such.

Offline partzman

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1197 on: April 24, 2017, 07:55:07 PM »
Could you put that in newbie terms?

I think you are saying that almost no current flow and yet there is still an induction transfer?

There is current flow within the TBP that is recirculating and creating induction in the windings, but little current exits the circuit at the frequency shown in the example.  This circulating current is the result of energy transfer between the winding inductances and the distributed capacitance between windings.  The small current in the sense resistor on the output represents the losses in the TBP such as the DC resistance of the windings and other parasitics.   

The internal induction of the TBP can be sensed with an external coil and if the coil is loaded, the current in the output sense resistor to ground will increase as energy is drawn from the transmission line or TBP.

PM

Offline webby1

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1198 on: April 24, 2017, 09:20:30 PM »
Thanks partzman,, I appreciate the translation :)

Offline evostars

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1199 on: April 24, 2017, 09:41:16 PM »
FWIW, attached is a sim of a TBP coil modeled as a cross coupled symmetrical transmission line which hopefully will answer some questions about the uniqueness of this device.  This sim was based on parameters supplied by TK and are as follows- individual winding inductances are 172uH and 176uH, the series connected inductance is 680uH, capacitance between windings is 2.8nf, and the DCR is 3.9 ohms.  When the sim and TK's TBP bench results were compared, they were within ~1.5%.

TBP_1A shows the plot sweep from ~50kHz to 1.25MHz and as can be seen there are 2 dips and 1 peak in Vout across the 1 ohm sense resistor.  There is also a trace showing the sum of the all the currents in the odd inductors L1-L23 over time representing one winding of the TBP and the other line is identical but not shown for clarity.  Also, the 10v peak input voltage Vin from the generator is divided by 100 for plot clarity.

TBP_2A shows an expanded view of the first dip in output voltage/current in Vout across/thru R1.  The frequency is ~277kHz, Vout is ~561uv rms, while the total current in the odd L's is ~140ma rms.  This shows the apparent output current to ground of the TBP to be nearly zero while there is still induction in both windings which would be detectable with a separate sense coil in proximity.

TBP_3A shows an expanded view of the 1st peak in output current at 505kHz plus the levels of output voltage and the odd L's winding current.

Regards,

PM

Edit: Added 'cross coupled'.
Thanks  alot, for the great info!

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1199 on: April 24, 2017, 09:41:16 PM »

 

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