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Author Topic: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency  (Read 84475 times)

Offline MileHigh

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1185 on: April 22, 2017, 08:55:40 PM »
There is a reason that I posed the questions about this coil.  Here is the issue:  Threads that go on and on where people delude themselves into believing that they are accomplishing something or doing something significant or making headway into unknown territory.  So nobody stops and says, "What are we doing, what is the end game?"  People are petrified to ask the pretty self-evident questions.

Look at the nonsensical RomeroUK pulse motor.  He claimed his pick-up coils passing through FWBRs where regeneratively powering the motor.  A crazy frenzy ensued but not a single person asked him to scope the common output of all of the FWBRs that was supposedly self-powering the motor.  Then it was found that he was hot-wiring power into the common output of all of the FWBRs.  Look at the "resonant Joule Thief."  That went nowhere, it died.  I pointed out that resonance has absolutely nothing to do with a Joule Thief and the whole concept didn't even make sense.  Look at the ridiculous Bedini windmill pulse motor.  All these people at the conference were in awe at this big slowly rotating windmill.  I asked the questions, "What does it do?" and "What is it for?" and not a single person could answer.  The answer is that it did nothing and they tried to sell it and I think in the end they sold if for scrap metal.

So there is a perfectly valid reason to ask about the Tesla series bifilar pancake coil.  In the patent it clearly states that it is for power factor correction but apparently people want to ignore that.  It's the usual hunt for magic beans without even asking yourselves what this thing is for and what practical uses there are for it.  It takes you out of your Tesla ASMR buzz and asks you for real meaning and real substance.

You think you have some kind of "outside the box" answer?  Then go ahead and state what it is.

Right now all that we have are crickets chirping and the usual Tesla tingles.  The problem is that you can't do a single damn thing with crickets chirping or Tesla tingles.  And I am predicting with high confidence that there are not going to be any answers.  The bottom line is the patent is just a curiosity.  It may have looked interesting at the time, but nothing ever came of it.  It's just one of tens of millions of patents that went nowhere.

And the funny thing is I am sure that there are hard-core Tesla fanatics that are very offended by what I am saying because they think that the Tesla series bifilar pancake coil is the key to some magical free energy device if we only could figure it out.  And I know from experience that 95% of the hardcore Tesla fanatics don't even understand how a coil works.

So my questions stand, and I am not expecting them to be answered in this thread.  And that means my answers to the questions are the true answers.  And the smart ones would then simply move on and get past the fetish over this patent.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy


Offline Erfinder

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1186 on: April 22, 2017, 08:57:39 PM »
Right. Nice depiction in characters. So we have the series caps from input to input but, we have the advantage of the unique increase in plate to plate voltage as compared to a single wire coil.  And what if we were able to operate the coil a certain way, is there a way to apply input then take it away and see that half input voltage charge times the number of turns , or as you correctly say, plates? 100v in, 50v between plates times 100 turns. 5kv.  I really cant see that anyone would think it cant be as I say. Im just goin with what Im seein in my jelly ball above my neck. Maybe your direction with it is different. But thanks for that nice contribution. ;) It all shows that the bifi is a different monster in possibly more than one way. We continue on.

Mags


We were informed of the relation that self induction has to capacity and frequency.  When we try to comprehend what is "possibly" being suggested, taking into consideration all that we have in the form of information on the subject, we "can" understand that the capacity is distributed.  We knew that already.....right?  Here's the slap in the face....I am not referring to what we know!  I've said over and over again that we should not concern ourselves with parasitic and proximity capacity values.  I suggest we identify and utilize the real capacity of the circuit, this fell on infertile ground.  Piggybacking what you think you know is more...lol.....



Offline MileHigh

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1187 on: April 22, 2017, 09:11:28 PM »

To me what does not make sense is you think that i don't know what is the difference between a transformer with iron core and ferrite core .
Are you trying to ridicule me? Hope not because seems to me very poor attempt on your part, and if you don't want answer what i ask it's ok to me, but don't fall in the ridicule of try teach something so basic like you did about the transformers theme .
Get some sun man .

Nelson Rocha

No, I had every reason to believe that you did not think about the issues I discussed.  You have not shown any practical use for a Tesla series bifilar pancake coil because using it to make a transformer for power transfer is not realistic and there are better ways to do that.

Offline Erfinder

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1188 on: April 22, 2017, 09:12:00 PM »
There is a reason that I posed the questions about this coil.  Here is the issue:  Threads that go on and on where people delude themselves into believing that they are accomplishing something or doing something significant or making headway into unknown territory.  So nobody stops and says, "What are we doing, what is the end game?"  People are petrified to ask the pretty self-evident questions.

Look at the nonsensical RomeroUK pulse motor. He claimed his pick-up coils passing through FWBRs where regeneratively powering the motor.  A crazy frenzy ensued but not a single person asked him to scope the common output of all of the FWBRs that was supposedly self-powering the motor.  Then it was found that he was hot-wiring power into the common output of all of the FWBRs.  Look at the "resonant Joule Thief."  That went nowhere, it died.  I pointed out that resonance has absolutely nothing to do with a Joule Thief and the whole concept didn't even make sense.  Look at the ridiculous Bedini windmill pulse motor.  All these people at the conference were in awe at this big slowly rotating windmill.  I asked the questions, "What does it do?" and "What is it for?" and not a single person could answer.  The answer is that it did nothing and they tried to sell it and I think in the end they sold if for scrap metal.

So there is a perfectly valid reason to ask about the Tesla series bifilar pancake coil.  In the patent it clearly states that it is for power factor correction but apparently people want to ignore that.  It's the usual hunt for magic beans without even asking yourselves what this thing is for and what practical uses there are for it.  It takes you out of your Tesla ASMR buzz and asks you for real meaning and real substance.

You think you have some kind of "outside the box" answer?  Then go ahead and state what it is.

Right now all that we have are crickets chirping and the usual Tesla tingles.  The problem is that you can't do a single damn thing with crickets chirping or Tesla tingles.  And I am predicting with high confidence that there are not going to be any answers.  The bottom line is the patent is just a curiosity.  It may have looked interesting at the time, but nothing ever came of it.  It's just one of tens of millions of patents that went nowhere.

And the funny thing is I am sure that there are hard-core Tesla fanatics that are very offended by what I am saying because they think that the Tesla series bifilar pancake coil is the key to some magical free energy device if we only could figure it out.  And I know from experience that 95% of the hardcore Tesla fanatics don't even understand how a coil works.

So my questions stand, and I am not expecting them to be answered in this thread.  And that means my answers to the questions are the true answers.  And the smart ones would then simply move on and get past the fetish over this patent.


You bash before you comprehend.....all public discussion stops and you claim a victory....you have no idea...you might want to revisit, on second thought...they don't make glasses strong enough to correct your piss poor eyesight.....


Offline webby1

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1189 on: April 22, 2017, 09:28:54 PM »

You thought I was finished?  I wasn't finished, I like giving folk time to think about what's being suggested, I don't deal in facts, be careful when dealing in facts, they usually bite you in the ass, removing huge chunks of flesh....


Are conductors really conductors.....not a question....what are they conducting when they are supposedly conducting....not a question....They behave more like insulators when.....WTF am I suggesting...not a question...


The coil is both inductor and capacitor, simultaneous-sequentially.  The same applies to that whose activity is restricted to  the area between the socalled guide.

Nope,, I did not think you were finished.


Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1189 on: April 22, 2017, 09:28:54 PM »
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Offline webby1

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1190 on: April 22, 2017, 09:34:50 PM »
So my questions stand, and I am not expecting them to be answered in this thread.  And that means my answers to the questions are the true answers.  And the smart ones would then simply move on and get past the fetish over this patent.

False.

Just because you do not get the answer YOU want does not make YOU right.

That also only makes your answers only an answer,, not the one and only answer.

If you have not noticed it really is not so much about the patent,, it is about the coil and what happens with that coil OTHER than what the standard view expects.

Offline MileHigh

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1191 on: April 22, 2017, 09:36:07 PM »

You bash before you comprehend.....all public discussion stops and you claim a victory....you have no idea...you might want to revisit, on second thought...they don't make glasses strong enough to correct your piss poor eyesight.....

You have run out of gas Erfinder, it's just a joke at this point in time.  My eyesight is way better than yours and I understood that fake pulse motor.  Who says public discussion stops?  Stop paying the butt-hurt guy that whines all the time.  This thread is an open canvas for you to share something.  However, you are the little boy that cried wolf all the time and there is no substance.  Why is the sky blue?  There is a real answer to that question, and not some endless series of proddings to get your audience to think outside of the box.  What is blue?  What does it mean to see?  Are we really "seeing" or is it just nerve impulses firing?  Is it really blue, bla bla bla.

The canvas is open for you to actually say something of substance.

Something like this:  No matter what your excitation of the coil or what frequencies you use or what waveform you use, the coil is a passive energy storage device where energy is mostly stored in the magnetic field and some of the energy can potentially be stored in an electric field.  Some energy is also lost through resistance.  For all practical intents and purposes, the coil is just a rag doll that you excite and then observe how it responds.  You can shake the rag doll, spin the rag doll, or hit the rag doll, and in the final analysis it will always be a passive rag doll.

The canvas is open for you.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1191 on: April 22, 2017, 09:36:07 PM »
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Offline MileHigh

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1192 on: April 22, 2017, 09:37:47 PM »
If you have not noticed it really is not so much about the patent,, it is about the coil and what happens with that coil OTHER than what the standard view expects.

And we are still waiting for the tiniest little smidgen of evidence that that is even remotely true.

Offline nelsonrochaa

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1193 on: April 22, 2017, 09:43:55 PM »
No, I had every reason to believe that you did not think about the issues I discussed.  You have not shown any practical use for a Tesla series bifilar pancake coil because using it to make a transformer for power transfer is not realistic and there are better ways to do that.

What you mean when you say that is not a realistic approach make a transformer to power transfer ?
Did you already try it ? Did you know any report where that was tested to you have sure about that ?
Point me please , because i will like read to compare with what i observed .

thanks

Offline MileHigh

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1194 on: April 22, 2017, 10:02:51 PM »
What you mean when you say that is not a realistic approach make a transformer to power transfer ?
Did you already try it ? Did you know any report where that was tested to you have sure about that ?
Point me please , because i will like read to compare with what i observed .

thanks

You basically said, "No there is a good use for a Tesla series bifilar pancake coil for power transfer, take a look at my video clip."

In your clip you make a light bulb light, and you make a motor run.  Big deal, that means nothing.  You didn't prove anything, you just made an anecdotal demonstration with no measurements and no analysis of the data.

I will simply repeat to you that a Tesla series bifilar pancake coil does not demonstrate any advantage for transformer power coupling and there are far better ways to couple power using a transformer.  There are literally thousands of different models of transformers manufactured in the billions by hundreds of companies every year. 

Sorry, the fact that you can make a light bulb light up means nothing.  The burden would be on *you* to present data that this coil does this function in a better way than any other solution. 

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1194 on: April 22, 2017, 10:02:51 PM »
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Offline nelsonrochaa

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1195 on: April 22, 2017, 10:18:15 PM »
You basically said, "No there is a good use for a Tesla series bifilar pancake coil for power transfer, take a look at my video clip."

In your clip you make a light bulb light, and you make a motor run.  Big deal, that means nothing.  You didn't prove anything, you just made an anecdotal demonstration with no measurements and no analysis of the data.

I will simply repeat to you that a Tesla series bifilar pancake coil does not demonstrate any advantage for transformer power coupling and there are far better ways to couple power using a transformer.  There are literally thousands of different models of transformers manufactured in the billions by hundreds of companies every year. 

Sorry, the fact that you can make a light bulb light up means nothing.  The burden would be on *you* to present data that this coil does this function in a better way than any other solution.


I basically make a anecdotal demonstration with no measurements and no analysis with a incandescent  light a 100W 230v bulb with a input of 30v and less 2 amp .  I understand how inefficient that is , and anecdotal i could become myself . :)
Please ignore that  , i don't have any intention to confuse your head with anecdotal ideas lol

Nelson Rocha


 

Offline MileHigh

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1196 on: April 22, 2017, 10:27:48 PM »

I basically make a anecdotal demonstration with no measurements and no analysis with a incandescent  light a 100W 230v bulb with a input of 30v and less 2 amp .  I understand how inefficient that is , and anecdotal i could become myself . :)
Please ignore that  , i don't have any intention to confuse your head with anecdotal ideas lol

Nelson Rocha

Oh, 30 volts x 2 amps = 60 watts, and you made a 100-watt 230-volt light bulb light up?  It sounds amazing.

Did you actually measure the voltage and current through the light bulb?  It's tricky considering that the resistance of the filament varies with temperature.

On this forum, we have seen this countless times before, and it means nothing.  I am going to ignore it, as will everyone else with a basic understanding of these issues.


Offline nelsonrochaa

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1197 on: April 22, 2017, 10:32:57 PM »
Oh, 30 volts x 2 amps = 60 watts, and you made a 100-watt 230-volt light bulb light up?  It sounds amazing.

Did you actually measure the voltage and current through the light bulb?  It's tricky considering that the resistance of the filament varies with temperature.

On this forum, we have seen this countless times before, and it means nothing.  I am going to ignore it, as will everyone else with a basic understanding of these issues.

Yes just ignore it in that way you head will not get any "junk" by me . Way you systematically try talk not only by you by the others  ?
Did you think others are not able to decide what is good or not ?  seems not .


 Nelson Rocha

PS- See MH , i not only light neon in one hand ;)



Offline itsu

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1198 on: April 22, 2017, 11:02:51 PM »
Hi Itsu,

To refine this tuning procedure, both coils would need to be paralleled with a variable capacitor
and first both of these capacitors would need to be set to a half capacitance value (half opened capacitors).
This way you could tune any of the coils either above or below of the frequency established by
the half opened capacitors, and this then could help finding the best coupling where the response
has a single peak at the common resonance frequency for both coils.  Both LC circuits mutually detune
each other as they are coupled i.e. getting closer to each other hence the need to either increase or
decrease the individual coil resonancies and this can be done by opening or closing the capacitors.

But this tuning you nicely show in the video may also be enough already to test the load of a LED or
any other load connected to the pick-up coil how it influences the small current consumption of the
main TBP at the paralel resonance - this was the original goal for tuning the pick-up coil to be resonant
with the main TBP coil.

Thanks
Gyula

Gyula,

i did some further tests like you mentioned and put a variable cap across each TBP coil.
Even when 90° turned away and quite a distance away, i see the pickup coil picking up the signal where both coils are on the same resonance frequency.

Approaching the driven coil with the pickup coil shows the split in resonance of both coils which increases more and more untill they are touching each other.
The both resonance points in each coil are a 500KHz away now.

Next i reversed the pickup coil and did an approach again showing that at some point the pickup signal disappears (15cm away from the driven coil).
When further approaching, the signal reappears and the splits in resonance frequency happens again like before.

Finally i went over to a single resonance freqeuncy (no sweeping) to show the phase difference between the both coils signals.
They are either 180° out of phase or when the pickup coils gets reversed in phase.

Video here:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AQEJ08TRNkU


Regards Itsu


Offline gyulasun

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1199 on: April 23, 2017, 12:39:11 AM »
Hi Itsu,

Probably the big size (volume) of the variable capacitors and the wiring associated with it establishes inherent (capacitive) coupling by default between the two tuned circuits.
Small sized variable capacitors like the ones used in AM pocket radio receivers might behave more favorably. Sorry. 
The unwanted coupling is what I think may now be happening but you maybe cannot remedy this easily and maybe there is no need to do so. 

Regarding the LED is not lit: maybe using a normal load resistor (across the pick up coil) from 10 to say 200 Ohm (just guessing) or a low current wheat lamp would also indicate whether its presence reflect back to the primary coil when the latter is the measurement setup in series with the 10 Ohm. 

Thanks for the video and for doing these tests.   
Gyula

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1199 on: April 23, 2017, 12:39:11 AM »

 

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