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Author Topic: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency  (Read 91013 times)

Offline Erfinder

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1140 on: April 21, 2017, 09:42:35 PM »

Erfinder makes lots of claims but will not reveal anything.


and there isn't a damn thing you can do about it....

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy


Offline Erfinder

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1141 on: April 21, 2017, 09:49:58 PM »
Well i for one,have found nothing special about it-yet,other than the lower resonant frequency.

You won't find anything special about it because you lack the capacity.


[/size]
Erfinder will talk lot's,but never tell you anything other than riddles-it's the way he has always been.

Brad


and there ain't a damn thing you can do about it.........  You've  shown what......how many dead ends....more than me that's right....not sure if one should be proud of that...


Offline partzman

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1142 on: April 21, 2017, 10:00:05 PM »
Just like deja vu all over again.

I showed how when the bifilar coil self-resonates, the amount of energy stored in the LC resonator relative to the continuous resistive power burn is negligible.

I was the impetus for the frequency sweep, and the surprise so far is that we have only seen parallel resonance and not series resonance like the patent states.

Erfinder makes lots of claims but will not reveal anything.

Magluvin is going to do some future testing but will not reveal what it is all about.

And of course I ask the questions that many won't ask or they are afraid to ask because of the special flavour of political correctness around here:  What is the Tesla series bifilar pancake coil good for?  What can you do with it?  I have asked similar questions about other issues that nobody dare speak in the past.

Before this thread gets totally out of hand, I would like to propose at least one answer to MH's question above.  The TBC could be modeled as a symmetrical transmission line wherein each wire of the bifilar pair contains lumped inductors and the distributed capacitance between this bifilar pair are lumped capacitances connected between the lumped inductors.  I've attached a schematic to represent this. 

If this is correct, it might explain how when at a certain frequency no current appears to flow thru the TBC but yet induction can be detected with a separate sense coil in proximity.  IOW, the TBC is still inductively active when it appears not to be.  Possible applications to free energy, well, I guess that is up to us to figure out!

PM 

Offline itsu

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1143 on: April 21, 2017, 10:14:49 PM »
Hi Itsu,

I think you would need to make the pancake's self resonant frequency a little bit tunable by connecting a max 100 pF variable cap in parallel with it first and then approach the pickup coil near to it with its own variable cap. 
The detuning factor mutually affecting both coils resonances is the distance between them i.e. coupling between them. Any time you change the distance, you would have to retune both coils, this means you need coils to be tunable to both directions, up and down.   I do not think a  max 100  pF extra cap across the pancake would influence meaningfully any other properties of it other than its self resonant frequency.
The so called critical coupling would bring the most favorable response between the coils like in band pass filter cases.

Addition: I think any time there is a double peak created in the response then overcoupling is happening, this means you need to increase the distance between the two coils and retune their variable capacitors a little. 

Gyula

I made a similar TBP coil like the one i already had and which has similar specifications (1.4 Ohm each coil, 130uH each coil etc.)
With a fairly great distance between them, i can tune them (using a 45 - 450pF variable capacitor on the driven TCP coil) to resonate around
the same frequency.
When narrowing the gap between the TBP coils we see the resonance points getting split due to overcoupling, see screenshot below.

Yellow is the driven TBP coil being sweeped between 200 and 400 Khz.
Purple is the pickup TBP coil at the same resonance frequency.
Blue is the FG sweep signal.

Video here:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2iXfDTRQKZ0

Regards Itsu 


Offline itsu

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1144 on: April 21, 2017, 10:21:52 PM »
Haven't followed this (my own) thread anymore. But as it is mine, here is a related post:

I made some more coils. I earlier used bifilar coils to be pulsed. I now tried single wire coils:

I connected the two single wire pancake coil in series, to my IGBT pulse driver.
The IGBT became extremely hot (much hotter than with a pulsed bifilar coil).
I guess this is because of the back emf produced, by the pulsed coils.
To avoid it, i should use a diode and a resistor in parallel with the coil, to burn the energy of the back emf.

So, I guess I will be making another bifilar pancake coil, to pulse in series.

isnt it funny, that the bifilar coil doesnt produce this troublesome back emf?

Telsa in his patent states, the back emf of a normal single wire coil, can be fixed with capacitance... but how?

I must say... these bifilar coils have their advantage (the IGBT stays cool)


Hi Evo,

that would be great, but could you perhaps show some scope shots of your IGBT drain in both situations (Bifilar coil versus single wire coils)?

Thanks,  Itsu

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1144 on: April 21, 2017, 10:21:52 PM »
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Offline synchro1

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1145 on: April 22, 2017, 12:01:42 AM »
Re: what is the physical meaning of "Negative Inductance"?

"The most fundamental reason is that the electric energy stored in this element is more than the magnetic energy stored. Circuit designers interpret it as a capacitor".

Here's what I gathered: Increased inductor field strength creates a reluctance to changing current, but some current that fails to pass is stored in the inductor along with the magnetic field. Now, this is referred to as "Positive Capacitance" except the frequency reactance is reversed. The amount of positive capacitance in an inductor of charged magnetic field strength is measured in 'Negative Henries" of inductance, and has to be proportional to the intensity of the flux field.

Offline gyulasun

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1146 on: April 22, 2017, 12:58:31 AM »
Hi Itsu,

To refine this tuning procedure, both coils would need to be paralleled with a variable capacitor
and first both of these capacitors would need to be set to a half capacitance value (half opened capacitors).
This way you could tune any of the coils either above or below of the frequency established by
the half opened capacitors, and this then could help finding the best coupling where the response
has a single peak at the common resonance frequency for both coils.  Both LC circuits mutually detune
each other as they are coupled i.e. getting closer to each other hence the need to either increase or
decrease the individual coil resonancies and this can be done by opening or closing the capacitors.

But this tuning you nicely show in the video may also be enough already to test the load of a LED or
any other load connected to the pick-up coil how it influences the small current consumption of the
main TBP at the paralel resonance - this was the original goal for tuning the pick-up coil to be resonant
with the main TBP coil.

Thanks
Gyula

I made a similar TBP coil like the one i already had and which has similar specifications (1.4 Ohm each coil,
130uH each coil etc.)
With a fairly great distance between them, i can tune them (using a 45 - 450pF variable capacitor on the
driven TCP coil) to resonate around the same frequency.
When narrowing the gap between the TBP coils we see the resonance points getting split due to
overcoupling, see screenshot below.

Yellow is the driven TBP coil being sweeped between 200 and 400 Khz.
Purple is the pickup TBP coil at the same resonance frequency.
Blue is the FG sweep signal.

Video here:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2iXfDTRQKZ0

Regards Itsu

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1146 on: April 22, 2017, 12:58:31 AM »
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Offline Magluvin

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1147 on: April 22, 2017, 01:23:14 AM »
Hi Itsu,

To refine this tuning procedure, both coils would need to be paralleled with a variable capacitor
and first both of these capacitors would need to be set to a half capacitance value (half opened capacitors).
This way you could tune any of the coils either above or below of the frequency established by
the half opened capacitors, and this then could help finding the best coupling where the response
has a single peak at the common resonance frequency for both coils.  Both LC circuits mutually detune
each other as they are coupled i.e. getting closer to each other hence the need to either increase or
decrease the individual coil resonancies and this can be done by opening or closing the capacitors.

But this tuning you nicely show in the video may also be enough already to test the load of a LED or
any other load connected to the pick-up coil how it influences the small current consumption of the
main TBP at the paralel resonance - this was the original goal for tuning the pick-up coil to be resonant
with the main TBP coil.

Thanks
Gyula

I was thinking on the tuning. If the coils are wound as neatly as possible and one coil res at one freq and the other at a say higher freq, then one could try unraveling the lower freq coil just a tiny bit at a time, where that would lower both capacitance and inductance thus raising the freq to equal the other coil.  No?

Mags

Offline gyulasun

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1148 on: April 22, 2017, 01:43:06 AM »
Yes, Mags  removing a few turns can also be a solution for fine tuning.  Especially in case when someone
has no variable capacitor in his junk box.  Tuning is surely easier by variable capacitors or trimmers though.

Gyula

Offline Magluvin

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1149 on: April 22, 2017, 01:53:16 AM »
Before this thread gets totally out of hand, I would like to propose at least one answer to MH's question above.  The TBC could be modeled as a symmetrical transmission line wherein each wire of the bifilar pair contains lumped inductors and the distributed capacitance between this bifilar pair are lumped capacitances connected between the lumped inductors.  I've attached a schematic to represent this. 

If this is correct, it might explain how when at a certain frequency no current appears to flow thru the TBC but yet induction can be detected with a separate sense coil in proximity.  IOW, the TBC is still inductively active when it appears not to be.  Possible applications to free energy, well, I guess that is up to us to figure out!

PM

Looking at your depiction it looks correct, where you could expand on that and show tiny caps between turns every so often on the turns.  My thoughts looking at this would seem to show that the caps have to be charged through the inductor windings, not in parallel where the input sees the cap at each end directly and the same with the inductor, where in a series lc it would seem a closer relationship where the cap has to get its charge through the inductor. I know that the coils have been showing parallel attributes of what happens with the input at resonance, but I still see the series version when looking at the schematic as do I see the one in my head. lol  Anyway...

Like if it were a single wire coil, the capacitances are all in series from end to end and do a direct connect at each end of the input, of which would emulate the parallel.  But if we look at the bifi, we have a very similar situation with all the tiny capacitances in series from end to end with the input, where the input would charge them in divisions of series caps and they would end with a fraction of the input, but that string is reconfigured in another way also, where say the first tiny cap in place at the beginning of the windings is only connected to the input on one side and the other end of the tiny cap is connected half way through the coil, thus for the larger charge to take effect it has to be electrically through the inductor to do so, thus my series impression.  So the bifi is an odd thing where the caps between each turn ARE all in series from end to the and connect to the input at either end directly just like the single wire coil AND the higher voltage developed in the caps has to go through the inductor.  So I think perhaps there are and can be dissimilarities when saying that a simple 2 component lc can do all the things a bifi can do. Maybe most have not given it any wild and crazy ideas beyond just testing and using a simple lc.

Mags

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1149 on: April 22, 2017, 01:53:16 AM »
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Offline Magluvin

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1150 on: April 22, 2017, 02:31:19 AM »
Looking at your depiction it looks correct, where you could expand on that and show tiny caps between turns every so often on the turns.  My thoughts looking at this would seem to show that the caps have to be charged through the inductor windings, not in parallel where the input sees the cap at each end directly and the same with the inductor, where in a series lc it would seem a closer relationship where the cap has to get its charge through the inductor. I know that the coils have been showing parallel attributes of what happens with the input at resonance, but I still see the series version when looking at the schematic as do I see the one in my head. lol  Anyway...

Like if it were a single wire coil, the capacitances are all in series from end to end and do a direct connect at each end of the input, of which would emulate the parallel.  But if we look at the bifi, we have a very similar situation with all the tiny capacitances in series from end to end with the input, where the input would charge them in divisions of series caps and they would end with a fraction of the input, but that string is reconfigured in another way also, where say the first tiny cap in place at the beginning of the windings is only connected to the input on one side and the other end of the tiny cap is connected half way through the coil, thus for the larger charge to take effect it has to be electrically through the inductor to do so, thus my series impression.  So the bifi is an odd thing where the caps between each turn ARE all in series from end to the and connect to the input at either end directly just like the single wire coil AND the higher voltage developed in the caps has to go through the inductor.  So I think perhaps there are and can be dissimilarities when saying that a simple 2 component lc can do all the things a bifi can do. Maybe most have not given it any wild and crazy ideas beyond just testing and using a simple lc.

Mags

Lol, a lot of these so called nutty ideas come to me as I write here at times. So here goes nuthin....


Thinking about what I just wrote has me thinking that your schematic may need fixing a bit. Follow me here...

In a single layer rod coil, we have the tiny caps connected between adjacent turns turns(and let me know if I need to do a 3d representation of my vision) where when it is all done we can see that all over we have strings of caps from input on the left and input on the right. Those in themselves are a series connection between input connections. So that is like a parallel lc and all in series like that the total voltage of all in series should be equal to the input, leaving tiny percentages of the input in each. So the capacitance of a standard coil ends up with tiny affect on the inductor(unless you want to work at those freq with such coil). 

So in the bifi if we start placing the same tiny caps between adjacent turns in the end we still have the same series strings from input connection to input connection. The exact same if the coils were wound identical.  But we also have this alternation of turns which kinda makes things different. We have a separate arrangement that connects the caps differently 'through' the coil, that luckily through resistance we have voltage division in the windings that allows the caps to take on half of the input voltage across the board.  So in the bifi we have basically 2 capacitances to deal with .

Im hoping you are getting this Parts as Ive heard you have put this stuff though the ringer for some time and should be familiar with what im getting at.

Sooo, for the new wild and crazy thought.....

If the series strings of capacitors all across the coil, no matter how the coils are connected bifi or standard, we have to agree that there is a series capacitance across the input in spite of the coils other properties, then what happens to that series capacitance when all those tiny caps get charged to half the input voltage and are yet all in series with the input??????     Think on that for a moment or as long as it takes.  It just may very well be the big deal here..

Im feeling a 3d coming on to help dispose any conflict with what im saying.   If we can charge the caps to half the input, then there are all these series caps that would add together to a higher voltage than the input. Not saying it is happening and is usable as we are fiddling, but there may be a way to take advantage of that.

Hey, Im just bangin on the outside of the box. Seems logical. 

Thanks for replying to MH and inspiring that thought.  ;)

Mags

Offline tinman

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1151 on: April 22, 2017, 03:49:56 AM »



 You've  shown what......how many dead ends....more than me that's right....not sure if one should be proud of that...

Fact is Erfinder,you have not shown any thing,and most here are starting to see that.

Your riddle's have become a bore to most--it's getting old now.

Brad


Offline Erfinder

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1152 on: April 22, 2017, 07:57:52 AM »
Fact is Erfinder,you have not shown any thing,and most here are starting to see that.

Your riddle's have become a bore to most--it's getting old now.

Brad


Fact is, I don't have to show anyone anything, and this is true for anyone.  If I want to show someone something I contact them and show them.  Fact is I don't speak in riddles, only the ignorant think I do.

Offline Dog-One

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1153 on: April 22, 2017, 08:13:53 AM »
If I want to show someone something I contact them and show them.

Roger that.  And it usually takes months to digest it all.    ;)


Offline Erfinder

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1154 on: April 22, 2017, 09:44:00 AM »
Roger that.  And it usually takes months to digest it all.    ;)


We must do it again, got somthing you might want to try with your ongoing water fuel research......it relates to what Jack is discussing in that PDF he provided.  I am sure you can appreciate the relation that effort has to this particular subject of bifilar coils.  I have been working along these lines for years, and apply these principles in pulse motor-generators (what I think the Meyers alternator was...)


Regards

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1154 on: April 22, 2017, 09:44:00 AM »

 

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