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Author Topic: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency  (Read 163204 times)

Offline Magluvin

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1110 on: April 22, 2017, 02:31:19 AM »
Looking at your depiction it looks correct, where you could expand on that and show tiny caps between turns every so often on the turns.  My thoughts looking at this would seem to show that the caps have to be charged through the inductor windings, not in parallel where the input sees the cap at each end directly and the same with the inductor, where in a series lc it would seem a closer relationship where the cap has to get its charge through the inductor. I know that the coils have been showing parallel attributes of what happens with the input at resonance, but I still see the series version when looking at the schematic as do I see the one in my head. lol  Anyway...

Like if it were a single wire coil, the capacitances are all in series from end to end and do a direct connect at each end of the input, of which would emulate the parallel.  But if we look at the bifi, we have a very similar situation with all the tiny capacitances in series from end to end with the input, where the input would charge them in divisions of series caps and they would end with a fraction of the input, but that string is reconfigured in another way also, where say the first tiny cap in place at the beginning of the windings is only connected to the input on one side and the other end of the tiny cap is connected half way through the coil, thus for the larger charge to take effect it has to be electrically through the inductor to do so, thus my series impression.  So the bifi is an odd thing where the caps between each turn ARE all in series from end to the and connect to the input at either end directly just like the single wire coil AND the higher voltage developed in the caps has to go through the inductor.  So I think perhaps there are and can be dissimilarities when saying that a simple 2 component lc can do all the things a bifi can do. Maybe most have not given it any wild and crazy ideas beyond just testing and using a simple lc.

Mags

Lol, a lot of these so called nutty ideas come to me as I write here at times. So here goes nuthin....


Thinking about what I just wrote has me thinking that your schematic may need fixing a bit. Follow me here...

In a single layer rod coil, we have the tiny caps connected between adjacent turns turns(and let me know if I need to do a 3d representation of my vision) where when it is all done we can see that all over we have strings of caps from input on the left and input on the right. Those in themselves are a series connection between input connections. So that is like a parallel lc and all in series like that the total voltage of all in series should be equal to the input, leaving tiny percentages of the input in each. So the capacitance of a standard coil ends up with tiny affect on the inductor(unless you want to work at those freq with such coil). 

So in the bifi if we start placing the same tiny caps between adjacent turns in the end we still have the same series strings from input connection to input connection. The exact same if the coils were wound identical.  But we also have this alternation of turns which kinda makes things different. We have a separate arrangement that connects the caps differently 'through' the coil, that luckily through resistance we have voltage division in the windings that allows the caps to take on half of the input voltage across the board.  So in the bifi we have basically 2 capacitances to deal with .

Im hoping you are getting this Parts as Ive heard you have put this stuff though the ringer for some time and should be familiar with what im getting at.

Sooo, for the new wild and crazy thought.....

If the series strings of capacitors all across the coil, no matter how the coils are connected bifi or standard, we have to agree that there is a series capacitance across the input in spite of the coils other properties, then what happens to that series capacitance when all those tiny caps get charged to half the input voltage and are yet all in series with the input??????     Think on that for a moment or as long as it takes.  It just may very well be the big deal here..

Im feeling a 3d coming on to help dispose any conflict with what im saying.   If we can charge the caps to half the input, then there are all these series caps that would add together to a higher voltage than the input. Not saying it is happening and is usable as we are fiddling, but there may be a way to take advantage of that.

Hey, Im just bangin on the outside of the box. Seems logical. 

Thanks for replying to MH and inspiring that thought.  ;)

Mags

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy


Offline tinman

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1111 on: April 22, 2017, 03:49:56 AM »



 You've  shown what......how many dead ends....more than me that's right....not sure if one should be proud of that...

Fact is Erfinder,you have not shown any thing,and most here are starting to see that.

Your riddle's have become a bore to most--it's getting old now.

Brad

Offline Dog-One

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1112 on: April 22, 2017, 08:13:53 AM »
If I want to show someone something I contact them and show them.

Roger that.  And it usually takes months to digest it all.    ;)

Offline webby1

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1113 on: April 22, 2017, 10:12:56 AM »
Just wondering,,

How does the bifi coil oscillate,, as in,, does the electric capacitance change into the magnetic capacitance and then back???

How is the current stopped and started?  where does it go?

If you supply a large electric pulse with no real current can you then take the conversion out as a lot of current with lower electric potential?

Could you supply a very short high voltage pulse and then slow the time of conversion into current so that the current conversion takes a much longer time period?

It is kind of interesting that you have one single device that can exhibit and use voltage storage and magnetic storage,, even if it is only for a short time.

Offline webby1

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1114 on: April 22, 2017, 10:27:24 AM »
I read some time ago about a couple of people that wondered what would happen if the on pulse time was shorter than the relaxation time for a conductor.  They ran there tests using a very large spool of coax,, long enough so that they could use inexpensive parts to control the pulse time.

One of the things I remember from there exploits was that they used less energy when they had a diode connecting the coax ends,, maybe burn up the trapped energy??? not sure about that but the diode reduced there input.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1114 on: April 22, 2017, 10:27:24 AM »
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Offline nelsonrochaa

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1115 on: April 22, 2017, 11:12:26 AM »


And of course I ask the questions that many won't ask or they are afraid to ask because of the special flavour of political correctness around here:  What is the Tesla series bifilar pancake coil good for?  What can you do with it?  I have asked similar questions about other issues that nobody dare speak in the past.
I think it has already been indicated, some of the applications of pancake bifilar, you are only try put "sand in the gears" nothing more .
You can try to test in a practical way, in your laboratory of work, instead of continuing to regret that they do not answer you in relation to your doubts, on the pancake bifilar.
See how a bifilar pancake coil could be used to do nice work in transfering power  :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aEZSCNHDYJs


Offline padova

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1116 on: April 22, 2017, 11:30:18 AM »
You are wright Nelson,
less talking and/or complaining and more actual work. Way to go. :)

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1116 on: April 22, 2017, 11:30:18 AM »
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Offline nelsonrochaa

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1117 on: April 22, 2017, 11:43:16 AM »
You are wright Nelson,
less talking and/or complaining and more actual work. Way to go. :)

Full agree !

More work and less talk and corrosive speech . ;)

Nelson Rocha

Offline synchro1

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1118 on: April 22, 2017, 12:48:13 PM »


The inductor's "B" field, or magnetic field, stores a tiny "H' field, or electric charge. This charge is measured by our inductance meters and is converted into "Negative Henries".

The question remains: Is the tiny "H" field in direct proportion to the coil's magnetic field strength? I maintain it is and can prove it.

Offline MileHigh

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1119 on: April 22, 2017, 01:29:51 PM »
I think it has already been indicated, some of the applications of pancake bifilar, you are only try put "sand in the gears" nothing more .
You can try to test in a practical way, in your laboratory of work, instead of continuing to regret that they do not answer you in relation to your doubts, on the pancake bifilar.
See how a bifilar pancake coil could be used to do nice work in transfering power  :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aEZSCNHDYJs

No, unfortunately that is not an answer to my questions.  You can use an ordinary transformer to transfer power and it will be superior in performance to a bifilar pancake coil and it will be cheaper.  So I don't care that you can transfer power with a Tesla series bifilar pancake coil, it's meaningless.

So my questions are still 100% valid:  What is the Tesla series bifilar pancake coil good for?  What can you do with it?

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1119 on: April 22, 2017, 01:29:51 PM »
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Offline nelsonrochaa

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1120 on: April 22, 2017, 01:38:31 PM »
No, unfortunately that is not an answer to my questions.  You can use an ordinary transformer to transfer power and it will be superior in performance to a bifilar pancake coil and it will be cheaper.  So I don't care that you can transfer power with a Tesla series bifilar pancake coil, it's meaningless.

So my questions are still 100% valid:  What is the Tesla series bifilar pancake coil good for?  What can you do with it?

Normal transformer is less expensive then a pancake coil ? i don't think so ... only the core will increase the final price of transformer in relation to pancake coil just like their losses.

A ordinary transformer will transfer power and it will be superior in performance ?
I don't think so too . Test it and after you could talk more Assertively.

What is meaningless is your certainties sometimes .
Have a nice day
 
Nelson Rocha

Offline MileHigh

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1121 on: April 22, 2017, 01:53:02 PM »
Normal transformer is less expensive then a pancake coil ? i don't think so ... only the core will increase the final price of transformer in relation to pancake coil just like their losses.

A ordinary transformer will transfer power and it will be superior in performance ?
I don't think so too . Test it and after you could talk more Assertively.

What is meaningless is your certainties sometimes .
Have a nice day
 
Nelson Rocha

There are billions of transformers manufactured every year for power transfer applications and they are not manufacturing Tesla series bifilar pancake coils, are they?

You feel free to define a power application for a transformer and then compare the best conventional transformer suited to the application with the best TBP coil suited to the application and compare efficiency and cost and there is no chance that the TBP coil will outperform the conventional transformer.

Just look at the geometry of a TBP coil with very small-diameter inner turns inside of larger-diameter outer turns.  The small-diameter turns will give you a weaker, poorer coupling as compared to the larger-diameter turns.  Plus there is flux cancellation between the turns of a TBP coil.  These are all aspects of the device telling you that it will function poorly as a transformer.  You are supposed to be able to look at cases like this and apply your knowledge.

I am absolutely certain that there are better, more cost-effective solutions for power transfer than TBP coils.

Offline nelsonrochaa

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1122 on: April 22, 2017, 02:42:40 PM »

You feel free to define a power application for a transformer and then compare the best conventional transformer suited to the application with the best TBP coil suited to the application and compare efficiency and cost and there is no chance that the TBP coil will outperform the conventional transformer.

Just look at the geometry of a TBP coil with very small-diameter inner turns inside of larger-diameter outer turns.  The small-diameter turns will give you a weaker, poorer coupling as compared to the larger-diameter turns.  Plus there is flux cancellation between the turns of a TBP coil.  These are all aspects of the device telling you that it will function poorly as a transformer.  You are supposed to be able to look at cases like this and apply your knowledge.

I am absolutely certain that there are better, more cost-effective solutions for power transfer than TBP coils.

"There are billions of transformers manufactured every year for power transfer applications and they are not manufacturing Tesla series bifilar pancake coils, are they?"

Yes it is true , almost transformers are not designed in a bifilar pancake coils, But is this something new? Everybody now that fact, About the reasons to continue use normal transformers ... I'm not so sure anymore if the reason to their use, is their advantage  in relation to other alternatives. Imagine that all the transformers in industries did not need to use iron core . How could this could hypothetical change all industrial and financial  reality and lobby ?
Is the question ...


Nelson Rocha
 



Offline AlienGrey

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1123 on: April 22, 2017, 04:02:38 PM »
"There are billions of transformers manufactured every year for power transfer applications and they are not manufacturing Tesla series bifilar pancake coils, are they?"

Yes it is true , almost transformers are not designed in a bifilar pancake coils, But is this something new? Everybody now that fact, About the reasons to continue use normal transformers ... I'm not so sure anymore if the reason to their use, is their advantage  in relation to other alternatives. Imagine that all the transformers in industries did not need to use iron core . How could this could hypothetical change all industrial and financial  reality and lobby ?
Is the question ...


Nelson Rocha
Nelson Hi yes it's said to be the ion in the transformer you mention, i'm not sur 'E & I' laminations are so good, 'UU' type would return much more, and give me the no free meal exists joke, the nefalines have been having them since the beginning of time.

Talking about pancake coils would there be any 'special' wire length or frequency where a return is greatest ? 

Offline AlienGrey

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1124 on: April 22, 2017, 04:08:12 PM »
There are billions of transformers manufactured every year for power transfer applications and they are not manufacturing Tesla series bifilar pancake coils, are they?

You feel free to define a power application for a transformer and then compare the best conventional transformer suited to the application with the best TBP coil suited to the application and compare efficiency and cost and there is no chance that the TBP coil will outperform the conventional transformer.

Just look at the geometry of a TBP coil with very small-diameter inner turns inside of larger-diameter outer turns.  The small-diameter turns will give you a weaker, poorer coupling as compared to the larger-diameter turns.  Plus there is flux cancellation between the turns of a TBP coil.  These are all aspects of the device telling you that it will function poorly as a transformer.  You are supposed to be able to look at cases like this and apply your knowledge.

I am absolutely certain that there are better, more cost-effective solutions for power transfer than TBP coils.
It's not 'Energy transfer we need, all that's available commercially and available from the 'grid', but it's never going to be 'free' ;)

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1124 on: April 22, 2017, 04:08:12 PM »

 

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