Cookies-law

Cookies help us to bring you our services at overunity.com . If you use this website and our services you declare yourself okay with using cookies .More Infos here:
http://www.overunity.com/5553/privacy-policy/
If you do not agree with storing cookies, please leave this website now. Many thanks for your understanding.
Amazon Warehouse Deals ! Now even more Deep Discounts ! Check out these great prices on slightly used or just opened once only items.I always buy my gadgets via these great Warehouse deals ! Highly recommended ! Many thanks for supporting OverUnity.com this way.

FireMatch

FireMatch

CCKnife

CCKnife

CCTool

CCTool

Magpi Magazine

Magpi Magazine Free Rasberry Pi Magazine

Battery Recondition

Battery Recondition

Arduino

Ultracaps

YT Subscribe

Gravity Machines

Tesla-Ebook

Magnet Secrets

Lindemann Video

Navigation

Products

Statistics


  • *Total Posts: 493868
  • *Total Topics: 14514
  • *Online Today: 44
  • *Most Online: 103
(December 19, 2006, 11:27:19 PM)
  • *Users: 6
  • *Guests: 109
  • *Total: 115

Facebook

Author Topic: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency  (Read 122133 times)

Offline itsu

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1420
Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1050 on: April 18, 2017, 10:27:02 PM »
Another great clip like usual Itsu.  The subject of breaking up a square wave into the sum of a bunch of sine waves at different frequencies is a challenging topic to understand for people with no background in this subject matter.  The short answer is that one of the sine waves in the frequency spectrum of the square wave is at the resonant frequency of the coil, and it's only that particular frequency that makes the coil resonate.

And that is why when you are looking for resonance or just to see how a circuit responds to a frequency sweep, you never use a square wave.  Multiple different square wave frequencies will make an LC resonator like the TBP coil resonate at its resonant frequency.  That can cause errors where you think the "wrong" square wave frequency is telling you the resonant frequency of the device under test.

I agree, its a challenging topic, that like you said has to do with the fact that a square wave is made up of all kind of sine waves and will generate odd harmonics.

Itsu

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy


Offline itsu

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1420
Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1051 on: April 18, 2017, 10:28:32 PM »
How about this magic, MH: 

Here is a scopeshot of the TBF pancake coil (661 uH, FR = 273.2 kHz) being stimulated by a sine wave at the resonant frequency. The Blue trace is the source frequency,  the Yellow trace is the voltage across the current sensing resistor as used in the previous scopeshots connected as MH specified, and the Purple trace is the signal from a "pickup coil" (actually the monofilar pancake, it was the first thing handy to grab) suspended a couple of cm away from the TBF coil. Not connected (but share the common ground of course). It is clearly getting a voltage induced in it. But the current sensing resistor on the TBF coil is showing zero voltage across the resistor, which should mean no current flowing through it. Clearly, the TBF is still generating a magnetic field that alternates at its driven frequency, otherwise it could not induce a voltage in the pickup coil. Right? 

(Inspired by Gyula's questions, thanks!)


Here my results of that same setup (528uH, Fr = 320Khz).

Yellow the flatlined signal across the 10 Ohm resistor.
Blue the input signal from the FG
purple the signal across a coil dangeling 2cm in front of the TBP coil.

Detuning the frequency returns the yellow sine wave signal and leaves the both blue and purple signals the same.

Itsu

Offline Magluvin

  • Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5647
Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1052 on: April 18, 2017, 10:59:56 PM »

Here my results of that same setup (528uH, Fr = 320Khz).

Yellow the flatlined signal across the 10 Ohm resistor.
Blue the input signal from the FG
purple the signal across a coil dangeling 2cm in front of the TBP coil.

Detuning the frequency returns the yellow sine wave signal and leaves the both blue and purple signals the same.

Itsu

Nice work Its

So where do we go from there? The thread title is what it is.  Not being cynical, just is that it?  Or do we load the sec and see what we get. Or move the second coil right on top of the bifi and see what we get. Would be interesting if it is all just normal transformer action. But for me this is not what I think tesla was intending with his discovery, thats why I didnt include the resonance test in my list of 3 tests.  Here is why..

If you can measure the inductance, resitance and capacitance, does it jive with the result on the test equipment? Are we in the range of res freq calculated? If so, then this is not the way Tesla intended his discovery to be operated, for one reason only..... It doesnt show the 'neutralization of inductance" he describes. If the res freq situation were to show such we wouldnt have a resonant freq because the induction element would be lost. LC with no L. So it is good to show what you guys have shown, as it proves we need to look at it a different way in how we are to achieve his claimed effect. ;D I already knew that and thats why I claimed I wasnt looking for resonance effects earlier in the thead, of which may boot me out of the conversation. :o   But if it is teslas bifilar coil we are looking into, then we should continue on to see what else we can do with this coil in reference to Teslas claims. I believe it is in dc discharge is where we should be heading because I believe that is where we will see his claim come into effect and be able to fully charge the capacitance without influence of inductance and only impeded by resistance. And if someone answers my question on the last page, if they believe that all the pairs of turns are fully charged immediately, by measuring the potential between turns at the time of external input, then we can say good by to the resistance impedance also and the cap gets fully charged without delay. But I think resistance 'may' play a part, but we will see.

Mags

Offline synchro1

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3017
Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1053 on: April 18, 2017, 11:04:43 PM »
Nice work Its

So where do we go from there? The thread title is what it is.  Not being cynical, just is that it?  Or do we load the sec and see what we get. Or move the second coil right on top of the bifi and see what we get. Would be interesting if it is all just normal transformer action. But for me this is not what I think tesla was intending with his discovery, thats why I didnt include the resonance test in my list of 3 tests.  Here is why..

If you can measure the inductance, resitance and capacitance, does it jive with the result on the test equipment? Are we in the range of res freq calculated? If so, then this is not the way Tesla intended his discovery to be operated, for one reason only..... It doesnt show the 'neutralization of inductance" he describes. If the res freq situation were to show such we wouldnt have a resonant freq because the induction element would be lost. LC with no L. So it is good to show what you guys have shown, as it proves we need to look at it a different way in how were are to achieve his claimed effect. ;D I already knew that and thats why I claimed I wasnt looking for resonance effects earlier in the thead, of which may boot me out of the conversation. :o   But if it is teslas bifilar coil we are looking into, then we should continue on to see what else we can do with this coil in reference to Teslas claims. I believe it is in dc discharge is where we should be heading because I believe that is where we will see his claim come into effect and be able to fully charge the capacitance without influence of inductance and only impeded by resistance. And if someone answers my question on the last page, if they believe that all the pairs of turns are fully charged immediately, by measuring the potential between turns at the time of external input, then we can say good by to the resistance impedance also and the cap gets fully charged without delay. But I think resistance 'may' play a part, but we will see.

Mags

@Mags,

The coil goes past the cancellation phase and accrues "Negative Henries". This factor measures gain in the coil's magnetic field.

Offline Magluvin

  • Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5647
Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1054 on: April 18, 2017, 11:10:10 PM »
@Mags,

The coil goes past the cancellation phase and accrues "Negative Henries". This factor measures gain in the coil's magnetic field.

What does that all mean man?  That is like, who would understand that statement as a whole?

Mags

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1054 on: April 18, 2017, 11:10:10 PM »
Sponsored links:




Offline synchro1

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3017
Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1055 on: April 18, 2017, 11:19:42 PM »
What does that all mean man?  That is like, who would understand that statement as a whole?

Mags

The coil field increase factors directly into electrical power units that can be deducted from the input for an accurate COP. A negative Henry is the measure of the coil's magnetic field strength! Joseph Henry's formula of Inductance allows us to measure the field strength in units of negative inductance, and give that an equivalent value in electrical power units.

Offline synchro1

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3017
Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1056 on: April 18, 2017, 11:49:32 PM »
@Mags,

If you have an Inductance meter, try hooking it up to the coil while you run your frequency scan, and see at exactly what frequency the Inductance drops to zero. Any reading that appeared with a minus sign in front would indicate the presence of a magnetic field.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1056 on: April 18, 2017, 11:49:32 PM »
Sponsored links:




Offline TinselKoala

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13558
Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1057 on: April 19, 2017, 12:01:48 AM »
The coil field increase factors directly into electrical power units that can be deducted from the input for an accurate COP. A negative Henry is the measure of the coil's magnetic field strength! Joseph Henry's formula of Inductance allows us to measure the field strength in units of negative inductance, and give that an equivalent value in electrical power units.

I just love it when you refute your own nonsense yourself, with information you find when finally googling the terms you misuse so flagrantly.
Nowhere in those various equivalent expressions for the Henry does an expression for ELECTRICAL POWER exist. ELECTRICAL POWER is measured in WATTS, the units of which are Joules/second. You will note that I TOLD YOU several times earlier that the Henry can be expressed as Joules/ampere2, which DOES appear in that chain of equivalent expressions. If a "negative henry" is "equivalent" to "watt-hour" as you have repeatedly claimed.... since the watt-hour is an expression of ENERGY NOT POWER...  you once again are getting all tangled up with your own claims and the solid refutations from the material you yourself post.

Offline TinselKoala

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13558
Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1058 on: April 19, 2017, 12:08:16 AM »
@Mags,

If you have an Inductance meter, try hooking it up to the coil while you run your frequency scan, and see at exactly what frequency the Inductance drops to zero. Any reading that appeared with a minus sign in front would indicate the presence of a magnetic field.

And if you damage your delicate inductance meter by applying a voltage from your FG while doing this, I'm sure Synchro will happily pay for a replacement. Won't he?

The presence of an alternating magnetic field is indicated by the ability of the coil to induce an alternating voltage in a nearby coil... something that has been shown to occur throughout the frequency ranges scanned. Of course one needs to be able to interpret oscilloscope screens to see this fact.

Furthermore, the inductance of coils we are testing never "drops to zero" and this is clearly indicated by the results of the frequency scans.

Offline TinselKoala

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13558
Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1059 on: April 19, 2017, 12:17:22 AM »
TK

Are you able to power a small load(E.G an LED) from a pickup coil(secondary) placed on top of the BPC,without it effecting this zero voltage across your CVR.?


Brad

No, when powering a LED load at the TBF's resonant frequency the CVR voltage trace does not quite "flatline" any more, it indicates about half a milliamp at flattest. This is with just enough amplitude of the signal input to the TBF to produce a slight glow in the LED. Of course if I go off the resonant frequency I can get a lot more power to drive the LED much more brightly from the pickup coil, especially if I go to the pickup coil's own resonant frequency, as the previous frequency scans show. The CVR trace grows then too. 

Here's a scopeshot of the "flattest" CVR line while powering a slightly glowing LED from the pickup coil. Yellow=CVR trace, with the current value shown being a little smaller than actual because the scope thinks I'm using a 10 ohm CVR but actually I'm using 9.4 ohms. Blue = across LED and pickup coil.


Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1059 on: April 19, 2017, 12:17:22 AM »
Sponsored links:




Offline Magluvin

  • Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5647
Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1060 on: April 19, 2017, 12:42:53 AM »
No, when powering a LED load at the TBF's resonant frequency the CVR voltage trace does not quite "flatline" any more, it indicates about half a milliamp at flattest. This is with just enough amplitude of the signal input to the TBF to produce a slight glow in the LED. Of course if I go off the resonant frequency I can get a lot more power to drive the LED much more brightly from the pickup coil, especially if I go to the pickup coil's own resonant frequency, as the previous frequency scans show. The CVR trace grows then too. 

Here's a scopeshot of the "flattest" CVR line while powering a slightly glowing LED from the pickup coil. Yellow=CVR trace, with the current value shown being a little smaller than actual because the scope thinks I'm using a 10 ohm CVR but actually I'm using 9.4 ohms. Blue = across LED and pickup coil.

So in your first paragraph you are saying you get more induced into the secondary by not being at resonance with the input than if you are at resonance? That was the statement before especially with a freq of the sec res freq.


Are the bumps showing the 'off res freq' you are using?

Mags

Offline Magluvin

  • Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5647
Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1061 on: April 19, 2017, 03:50:15 AM »
So in your first paragraph you are saying you get more induced into the secondary by not being at resonance with the input than if you are at resonance? That was the statement before especially with a freq of the sec res freq.


Mags

Hmm, well i just have to see for myself with my setup.  I just dont get that. 

Will see.

Mags

Offline TinselKoala

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13558
Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1062 on: April 19, 2017, 04:23:17 AM »
So in your first paragraph you are saying you get more induced into the secondary by not being at resonance with the input than if you are at resonance? That was the statement before especially with a freq of the sec res freq.

Yes. Take a look again at the frequency scan attached below. You can see that the most voltage induced in the "secondary" happens at its own resonant frequency (great purple peaks at about 1.24 MHz) not at the resonant frequency of the TBF "primary" (the frequency of the "notch" in the CVR yellow trace at 273.2 kHz).

Quote


Are the bumps showing the 'off res freq' you are using?

Mags

That scopeshot was taken at the resonant frequency of the TBF "primary" (look at top right for the frequency counter measurement) which is where the CVR trace flatlines under no load condition. I think the bumps in the Blue trace are the "secondary" trying to resonate at its own frequency of about 1.24 MHz, a bit over 4 times the primary resonant frequency. Because of the way I had the LED oriented polarity wise, the LED is turning on at the flat bottom of the Blue trace and the top parts with the bumps are when the LED is reverse-biased and not lit. I think.


Offline TinselKoala

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13558
Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1063 on: April 19, 2017, 04:46:53 AM »
I would just like to point out something here.

The Henry, denoted by H, is a scalar quantity and is the measure of inductance in the SI system.

On the other hand, H is a vector quantity that denotes the magnetizing field strength, and is not named after Joseph Henry and is not a measure of inductance. Its common units are Amperes/Meter. It is most certainly NOT equivalent to H, the Henry, the measure of inductance. The symbol "H" was assigned to this quantity in about 1850 by Lord Kelvin, who apparently picked the letters B and H at random.

Furthermore, there is a difference between the "negative" of a quantity and the "inverse" of a quantity.

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/magnetic/magfield.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetic_field

Offline MileHigh

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7617
Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1064 on: April 19, 2017, 06:36:53 AM »
To help understand this stuff, I am going to take a crack at a mechanical version of the parallel LC circuit acting as an infinite impedance at resonance.  However, next posting because this page has the wide sickness.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1064 on: April 19, 2017, 06:36:53 AM »

 

Share this topic to your favourite Social and Bookmark site

Please SHARE this topic at: