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Author Topic: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency  (Read 154549 times)

Offline synchro1

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1035 on: April 19, 2017, 02:16:34 PM »
@Tinselkoala,

You need to start with the "Magnetic Coulomb" law:

"In physics, the magnetic Coulomb law is the magnetic equivalent of the electric Coulomb law".

"The magnitude of the electrostatic force of attraction between two point charges is directly proportional to the product of the magnitudes of charges and inversely proportional to the square of the distance between them".

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Offline synchro1

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1036 on: April 19, 2017, 02:38:09 PM »
@Tinselkoala,

Ponder on this:

"The unit for magnetic reluctance is inverse henry, H−1".

"Magnetic reluctance, or magnetic resistance, is a concept used in the analysis of magnetic circuits. It is analogous to resistance in an electrical circuit, but rather than dissipating electric energy it stores magnetic energy".

Offline nelsonrochaa

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1037 on: April 19, 2017, 02:49:25 PM »
@Tinselkoala.

What do you call an ampere second at one volt? Joseph Henry defines the H as The amount of inductance (Coiled wire) it would require to generate one volt by varying a current by one ampere per second across the inductor.

Definition of Watt Hour:

"A Watt Hour is a measure of electrical energy equivalent to a power consumption of one watt for one hour".

You falsely state that a "Watt Hour" is energy but not power, when the truth is it's equal to power!

You twist the other very valuable word to cause the kind of Gnomic mischief you're notorious for? Who can find a negative when it's past zero? Coupled with compulsive adolescent insults and abuse, snickering to yourself, through your schlag covered face.


I think that exist a misunderstood or a fault of communication about this subject . Watt and Wh have different definitions .

A watt (W) is a unit of power, and power is the rate at which energy (joules) is produced or consumed in a second .

A watt-hour (Wh) is a unit of energy; it’s a way to measure the amount of work performed or generated  in one hour
 joules X time 3600S =Wh   

watt-hours measure amounts of energy for the specific period of time of one hour, and watts measure rates of power at a moment in time.

Just to clarify

Nelson Rocha

Offline synchro1

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1038 on: April 19, 2017, 02:59:49 PM »
@nelsonrochaa,

Thanks for the clarification. Consider this:


"Ørsted discovered the connection between magnetism and electric current when a magnetic field produced by a current-carrying copper bar deflected a magnetised needle during a lecture demonstration".


"In the CGS system, the unit of the H-field is the oersted and the unit of the B‑field is the gauss. In the SI system, the unit ampere per meter (A/m), which is equivalent to newton/weber, is used for the H‑field and the unit of tesla is used for the B‑field".

"H is measured in units of amperes per meter (symbol: A⋅m−1 or A/m) in the SI. B is measured in teslas (symbol: T)".


This is what you need to understand: The H field is an electrical equivalent and the B field a magnetic one.

Offline synchro1

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1039 on: April 19, 2017, 03:18:05 PM »
Coulomb's "Law of magnetics" helped couple the "Oersted" as a measure of electrical current H field, with the Gauss B field, a measure of magnetic strength. This is the base equivalency unit of Joseph Henries formula.

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1039 on: April 19, 2017, 03:18:05 PM »
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Offline Magluvin

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1040 on: April 19, 2017, 03:26:51 PM »

I think that exist a misunderstood or a fault of communication about this subject . Watt and Wh have different definitions .

A watt (W) is a unit of power, and power is the rate at which energy (joules) is produced or consumed in a second .

A watt-hour (Wh) is a unit of energy; it’s a way to measure the amount of work performed or generated  in one hour
 joules X time 3600S =Wh   

watt-hours measure amounts of energy for the specific period of time of one hour, and watts measure rates of power at a moment in time.

Just to clarify

Nelson Rocha

Hey nelson

From your description it would seem they are the same as in a measurement in time, where one is over the period of an hour but the other is over the period of 1 second.

Like there may be special reasoning for using one or the other where the Wh there may be many ups and downs and it gives us an average use over the hour time period and the W would more than likely be a more consistent power usage over the period of 1 sec. But it seems more like the same measurement, just one is kilograms and the other is just grams in analogy to time as in hour and 1 sec where they both are just scaled for sake of making numbers smaller like 1Mw or saying 1,000,000w.  or having to say 1/60 of an hour instead of 1 sec.

So it seems you could interchange the Wh and W in some formula just the ref to time of each would be the end result.

Mags

Offline synchro1

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1041 on: April 19, 2017, 03:31:37 PM »
Hey nelson

From your description it would seem they are the same as in a measurement in time, where one is over the period of an hour but the other is over the period of 1 second.

Like there may be special reasoning for using one or the other where the Wh there may be many ups and downs and it gives us an average use over the hour time period and the W would more than likely be a more consistent power usage over the period of 1 sec. But it seems more like the same measurement, just one is kilograms and the other is just grams in analogy to time as in hour and 1 sec where they both are just scaled for sake of making numbers smaller like 1Mw or saying 1,000,000w.  or having to say 1/60 of an hour instead of 1 sec.

So it seems you could interchange the Wh and W in some formula just the ref to time of each would be the end result.

Mags

@Mags,

Exactly! Same SI units.

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1041 on: April 19, 2017, 03:31:37 PM »
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Offline webby1

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1042 on: April 19, 2017, 03:40:51 PM »

So it seems you could interchange the Wh and W in some formula just the ref to time of each would be the end result.

Mags

How would you choose to denote the energy exchange in a single cycle as compared to many cycles?

If I have 1V @ 1A for a single cycle is that the same as for 1000 cycles?

If that single  cycle takes 1 second,, or if the 1000 cycles take 1 second,, how would you compare them?

Offline synchro1

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1043 on: April 19, 2017, 03:44:43 PM »
                                                          1 Gauss ≒ 1 Oersted.

  Factor that into your "Dervish Account"!

Offline Magluvin

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1044 on: April 19, 2017, 03:57:35 PM »
How would you choose to denote the energy exchange in a single cycle as compared to many cycles?

If I have 1V @ 1A for a single cycle is that the same as for 1000 cycles?

If that single  cycle takes 1 second,, or if the 1000 cycles take 1 second,, how would you compare them?

I was just interpreting what I think Nelson was saying. watt is a watt, and the difference between the Wh and W according to nelson they are the same just read over different periods of time. So it is like saying that the Kg is not the same as mg in a way.

I suppose you would have to average them out. Id say as long as you have at least 1 full ac cycle that the average should equate to that fraction of an hour if it were measured in 1 sec. If in 1 sec you only measured 1/4 wave of the ac cycle, that would not give an accurate depiction of power used over a longer period of time. Thus the Wh? 

Mags

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1044 on: April 19, 2017, 03:57:35 PM »
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Offline itsu

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1045 on: April 19, 2017, 04:07:11 PM »

Quote
Quote from: tinman on April 18, 2017, 10:26:14 AM

TK

Are you able to power a small load(E.G an LED) from a pickup coil(secondary) placed on top of the BPC,without it effecting this zero voltage across your CVR.?

Brad


No, when powering a LED load at the TBF's resonant frequency the CVR voltage trace does not quite "flatline" any more, it indicates about half a milliamp at flattest. This is with just enough amplitude of the signal input to the TBF to produce a slight glow in the LED. Of course if I go off the resonant frequency I can get a lot more power to drive the LED much more brightly from the pickup coil, especially if I go to the pickup coil's own resonant frequency, as the previous frequency scans show. The CVR trace grows then too. 

Here's a scopeshot of the "flattest" CVR line while powering a slightly glowing LED from the pickup coil. Yellow=CVR trace, with the current value shown being a little smaller than actual because the scope thinks I'm using a 10 ohm CVR but actually I'm using 9.4 ohms. Blue = across LED and pickup coil.

Trying that too shows that my led on the pickup coil does not light up when at the resonance frequency (313KHz) of the TBP coil.
When shifting the frequency to the pickup coil resonance frequency (2.5Mhz), it does light up the led.

Adding a 3nF cap parallel to the pickup coil / led lowers the resonance frequency to 313Khz which is where the TBP coil resonance frequency was
and now does light up the led brightly on 313Khz.

However, the resonance frequency of the TBP coil now has shifted to 389Khz, so no more flatlined current / resonance at 313Khz.

Its like pressing a balloon, it gives way, but expands somewhere else.

Itsu

Offline webby1

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1046 on: April 19, 2017, 04:09:11 PM »
Or if that full cycle is in 0.001seconds.

Energy and power,, energy you could say is 1 cycle,, power is how many of those cycles you have per second or hour.

They may be sort of the same unit but they are not saying the exact same thing,, potential to do work and how much work is done,, I could vacuum the floors today <= potential,, I vacuumed the floors today <=work done  :)

Offline synchro1

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1047 on: April 19, 2017, 04:11:13 PM »
   Ampere = Coulomb / second

If a coulomb is a gauss, the magnetic field of the wire can be figured out in a flash.

Offline Magluvin

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1048 on: April 19, 2017, 04:20:25 PM »
Or if that full cycle is in 0.001seconds.

Energy and power,, energy you could say is 1 cycle,, power is how many of those cycles you have per second or hour.

They may be sort of the same unit but they are not saying the exact same thing,, potential to do work and how much work is done,, I could vacuum the floors today <= potential,, I vacuumed the floors today <=work done  :)

Ok, cool.

Mags

Offline Magluvin

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1049 on: April 19, 2017, 04:25:29 PM »

No, when powering a LED load at the TBF's resonant frequency the CVR voltage trace does not quite "flatline" any more, it indicates about half a milliamp at flattest. This is with just enough amplitude of the signal input to the TBF to produce a slight glow in the LED. Of course if I go off the resonant frequency I can get a lot more power to drive the LED much more brightly from the pickup coil, especially if I go to the pickup coil's own resonant frequency, as the previous frequency scans show. The CVR trace grows then too. 

Here's a scopeshot of the "flattest" CVR line while powering a slightly glowing LED from the pickup coil. Yellow=CVR trace, with the current value shown being a little smaller than actual because the scope thinks I'm using a 10 ohm CVR but actually I'm using 9.4 ohms. Blue = across LED and pickup coil.


Trying that too shows that my led on the pickup coil does not light up when at the resonance frequency (313KHz) of the TBP coil.
When shifting the frequency to the pickup coil resonance frequency (2.5Mhz), it does light up the led.

Adding a 3nF cap parallel to the pickup coil / led lowers the resonance frequency to 313Khz which is where the TBP coil resonance frequency was
and now does light up the led brightly on 313Khz.

However, the resonance frequency of the TBP coil now has shifted to 389Khz, so no more flatlined current / resonance at 313Khz.

Its like pressing a balloon, it gives way, but expands somewhere else.

Itsu

Well i believe you guys. It just seems odd that at resonance the initial scope shot showing unloaded regular coil as producing the highest output, yet loaded it is not the case and reacts oppositely, it seems.

Soo what if we have identically tuned tbf? I have 1 more roll of the flat 14ga. Gunna wind that up.

Mags

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1049 on: April 19, 2017, 04:25:29 PM »

 

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