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Author Topic: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency  (Read 112342 times)

Offline Magluvin

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1035 on: April 17, 2017, 11:29:12 PM »
Off course that can not be correct, but still my hall sensor detects opposite fields when skimming the surface of the disk from left to right or top to bottom.

I think how MH have explained it is correct.

Itsu

Well if you face the hall inline with the fields as he has shown you should have higher flux readings than you have observed because the hall is still facing left and right when you bring it around the outer edge. So in my example imagine starting at the top where it says North in your drawing and as you move to the left toward the outer edge of the coil, the hall should be rotated as you move it so that by the time you are at the outer edge the hall will have turned 90deg, and then another 90deg once it is on the South marked side below.  If you can, try it and see if the outer edge is stronger than if it was with the hall the way you did it before. Just for giggles.

I will be doing the same tests but as I have described

Mags

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy


Offline Magluvin

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1036 on: April 17, 2017, 11:33:06 PM »
Yes, it is, and if you do the test I recommended, scanning all around the edge of the coil with the hall sensor in the plane of the coil, you will see no opposite fields, the lines will always go through the sensor in the same direction.

Well if he faces the hall around the edge, the hall face will be 90 out from the flux and read neutral, as long as it is kept steady, no?  Shouldnt the face of the hall be perpendicular to the face of the coil on the outer edge??

Mags


Offline TinselKoala

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1037 on: April 18, 2017, 12:21:20 AM »
Well if he faces the hall around the edge, the hall face will be 90 out from the flux and read neutral, as long as it is kept steady, no?  Shouldnt the face of the hall be perpendicular to the face of the coil on the outer edge??

Mags

Perhaps you are misunderstanding me or I am not being sufficiently clear. In my face-on drawing, the lines of flux around the disk edge will be straight up or down (into or out of the plane of the "paper") depending on the current direction. The Hall sensor should be held in the plane of the disk,  not at right angles to it.

Just like in your picture, except scan around the edge, remaining flat in the disk plane, instead of scanning along the _lines_ along the radius of the disk.

Offline tinman

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1038 on: April 18, 2017, 10:14:25 AM »
Itsu:

Nice to see that you did the frequency sweep and got similar results to TK.  It makes you ponder the Tesla patent where the statement is that the bifilar pancake coil is modeled as a series LC circuit.  Perhaps with larger "industrial scale" coils they start to look like series LC circuits and not parallel LC circuits at the main self-resonant frequency.

With respect to your magnetic field diagram, the more your shape deviates away from something regular like a conventional bar magnet, the less useful the concepts of "North" and "South" are.  The real essence of the magnetic field is to determine its direction and "follow the loop" so you know where it's going.  Knowing the magnitude is nice also but perhaps of secondary importance.

Please see the attached diagram showing the magnetic field around a pancake coil.  As you can see, you had your Hall sensor in the wrong orientation or plane, in order to track where it was going and follow the loop of the magnetic field.  Sure you can nominally say that over the top of the center axis of the coil is "North" and under the bottom of the center axis of the coil is "South" also.

If you look down on a flat pancake coil along the axis of the coil, as you can imagine the magnetic field on the top half of the coil will look like radial spokes of a wheel going from say the center towards the outer edge, and the magnetic field below the coil will look like radial spokes of a wheel going from the outer edge towards the center.

MileHigh

I have asked this question many time's,and never got an answer--so i'll ask again
What are the arrow suppose to show?--what is flowing out one end of a PM,and into the other?
If nothing,then why the arrows?.


My two cent's worth
The arrows are wrong,and misguiding/misleading,and cause only confusion to most that look at magnetic field's,and see these arrows.
Most take this as some sort of flow direction,which is wrong.


Brad


Offline tinman

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1039 on: April 18, 2017, 10:23:22 AM »
Very nice result on the frequency scan. Your coil's parameters are very similar to mine, and that's great as our results can be more easily compared.
 
See MH's drawings for how the field "circulates" around the windings and thus around the whole disk, like a big torus or donut in space. With a big enough disk the lines would actually be parallel to the disk surface over much of the disk, only becoming orthogonal at the edge and at the hole.


But what about the results I posted earlier where I show that there is still plenty of induction, hence plenty of alternating magnetic field,  going on even when the current sensing resistor voltage indicates no voltage across the resistor?

I also posted on that effect,where the voltage across the sniffer/pickup coil,was in phase with the voltage across the bifilar coil,and not the current through it.

Brad

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1039 on: April 18, 2017, 10:23:22 AM »
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Offline tinman

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1040 on: April 18, 2017, 10:26:14 AM »


But what about the results I posted earlier where I show that there is still plenty of induction, hence plenty of alternating magnetic field,  going on even when the current sensing resistor voltage indicates no voltage across the resistor?

TK

Are you able to power a small load(E.G an LED) from a pickup coil(secondary) placed on top of the BPC,without it effecting this zero voltage across your CVR.?


Brad

Offline itsu

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1041 on: April 18, 2017, 10:38:04 AM »
Yes, it is, and if you do the test I recommended, scanning all around the edge of the coil with the hall sensor in the plane of the coil, you will see no opposite fields, the lines will always go through the sensor in the same direction.

TK,   Mags,


its not that easy to scan the coil like you mention as the probe connected to the hall and the disk shape of the coil prevents easy access around the wires.
 
I will try later today, but i do not expect nice results, perhaps Mag's will be able to better show his results.


Itsu

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1041 on: April 18, 2017, 10:38:04 AM »
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Offline itsu

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1042 on: April 18, 2017, 10:45:46 AM »

Quote
Quote from: MileHigh on April 16, 2017, 04:07:28 PM<blockquote>Yes it's a strange question because it was a discussion about Magluvin's mistaken belief that "since a series bifilar coil can look like the wire resistance only, then I can pulse a series bifilar coil and get an instant magnetic field without having to energize the inductor."  It wasn't about the bandwidth-limited square wave excitation that you see in Conrad's clip.
</blockquote>


Hi MileHigh,

Well, it is true that Conrad's function generator happened to produce a distorted square wave instead of a beefy brick wall wave form at the 4 MHz frequency involved but nevertheless it was already far from a sine wave, close to "imitate" a switching waveform, do not you think?

For me, this is not an explanation,  and I do not think what Magluvin wrote is a mistaken belief, I agree with him.

Obviously, the claims have to be proved by measurements and hopefully it is taking place in this thread.

Gyula


going back to this part in the thread for a moment, as i tried a similar setup as in Conrads video to show the resonance, especially when driving with a square wave signal.
As my TBP coil has a much lower resonance frequency (307KHz compared to Conrads 8.5MHz) i had to change the 1pF cap (was blocking my signal) to 10pF.

The video here:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oeHswSGwneg&t=196s

It shows various square wave signals when driving the TBP coil and the influence it has on the resonance frequency.


Itsu

Offline MileHigh

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1043 on: April 18, 2017, 05:51:46 PM »
TK,   Mags,

its not that easy to scan the coil like you mention as the probe connected to the hall and the disk shape of the coil prevents easy access around the wires.
 
I will try later today, but i do not expect nice results, perhaps Mag's will be able to better show his results.

Itsu

In looking at your "TBP coil resonance 1" clip I can see how you have access to the left and right sides of the coil sitting in the CD case with your Hall sensor so you can do the measurement there.  You don't have to scan around the full 360 degrees of the edge of the coil.  The whole thing is symmetrical so there is no need to make more than a single measurement.

Offline MileHigh

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1044 on: April 18, 2017, 06:02:36 PM »
going back to this part in the thread for a moment, as i tried a similar setup as in Conrads video to show the resonance, especially when driving with a square wave signal.
As my TBP coil has a much lower resonance frequency (307KHz compared to Conrads 8.5MHz) i had to change the 1pF cap (was blocking my signal) to 10pF.

The video here:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oeHswSGwneg&t=196s

It shows various square wave signals when driving the TBP coil and the influence it has on the resonance frequency.

Itsu

Another great clip like usual Itsu.  The subject of breaking up a square wave into the sum of a bunch of sine waves at different frequencies is a challenging topic to understand for people with no background in this subject matter.  The short answer is that one of the sine waves in the frequency spectrum of the square wave is at the resonant frequency of the coil, and it's only that particular frequency that makes the coil resonate.

And that is why when you are looking for resonance or just to see how a circuit responds to a frequency sweep, you never use a square wave.  Multiple different square wave frequencies will make an LC resonator like the TBP coil resonate at its resonant frequency.  That can cause errors where you think the "wrong" square wave frequency is telling you the resonant frequency of the device under test.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1044 on: April 18, 2017, 06:02:36 PM »
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Offline Magluvin

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1045 on: April 18, 2017, 07:16:18 PM »
In looking at your "TBP coil resonance 1" clip I can see how you have access to the left and right sides of the coil sitting in the CD case with your Hall sensor so you can do the measurement there.  You don't have to scan around the full 360 degrees of the edge of the coil.  The whole thing is symmetrical so there is no need to make more than a single measurement.

Agreed.  I was just thinking if he has the face of the hall on the same plain as the coil throughout the go around, then it is not showing the actual flux density at the edges as compared to the flat areas, though it does explain the red and blue differences as he went around as we have taken notice of.

Mags

Offline Magluvin

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1046 on: April 18, 2017, 08:51:08 PM »
Ok. I just had someone ask me about what I have said and I should clear that up.....

When I said there may be an instantaneous mag field when we apply input to the bifi due to neutralizing self inductance as tesla describes, I should have included the resistance that would be part of that RC time in the statement of which would kill the use of the word instantaneous.

But that is not to say that if Tesla is correct that we could not get a much faster charge to the capacitance if the resistance is very low and the self inductance delay of currents were neutralized.  The neutralization of self inductance claim is what we should be looking at as it is the claim.  Im under the strong assumption that the neutralization is in effect when we first introduce dc current to the coil, not at resonance.  If it were at resonance, then we wouldnt have resonance because the self inductance is said to be neutralized due to the capacity magnifying effect of the particular winding scheme. We need L and C for resonance. If one is not there then no ringy dingy. So when is it that the self inductance is neutralized as he claims? It must be at initial input or pulse that Tesla is thinking of.

Thinking deeper, if the claim is true, how does the coils capacitance neutralize the self induction? Does it happen due to charges developing between turns, and those charges affect the self induction between turns? Like some guys here that say it is not flux cutting that causes induction, but it is E field, sooo, where is their beef with that idea??? ;) ;D

Like say if the capacitance of the bifi coil or even a regular coil of the same where we had a V meter between every turn, a meter that magically did not affect the circuit in any way, and the coils were 100t and we apply 100v, how long after the input is applied should we see max voltage between each turn pair? Is it instantaineous that every meter would read the same voltage division between each turn? Instantaneous? Or would resistance produce a delay in full charge for each segment vs the time the input was applied? And then further, if the resistance was the only opposition to each turn pair reaching max fraction of the input, and then current begins to flow as self inductance allows, would this not be a no brainer?  Lets say we only read the 2 adjacent turns just in the middle of the coil, when we apply input, will we read 1v between the 2 turns immediately? Or would one say out of the blue that the voltage between those 2 turns wont reach 1v until max current and mag field??? I dont think so.

So the charge in the capacity between turns happens before current is affected by the inductance, and to say there is no current to charge the capacity would be wrong in my opinion, and experience.  Lets say I could wind a coil as we have done with 1uf of capacitance, would current have to flow to charge that capacitance?
If not, then have we charged that capacitance for free and if we disconnect the input at the moment the charge is there, no current happened, then the thing has been energized for free? ???   Na, Im thinking current flowed till the capacity is fully charged and then the self induction stops further flow and slowly lets current reach peak as we know it from there on..

Thats my story samson simpson.  ;)   Think on that.




In a normal coil, there just may be the same effect but it is sooo tiny that if we dont look for it closely we may not notice, as the capacity in the normal coil will have only a tiny fraction of the input applied and further more, the actual capacitance is tiny. But as I said before that tiny capacitance becomes less insignificant when the potential of that same tiny capacity is at a much greater level. So the initial bump that may be there when measuring a normal coil when we first apply dc is most likely tiny as said before and very short lived. But it just might be there. Just a theory based on Teslas claim.  But Im thinking that the bifi will have a bigger more noticeable bump. Im thinking on how to look at that. Would it be a pulse train that the scope will sync to or just a one shot input and can I get my scope to react to the one shot and hold. anyway....


I see the bifi as a series LC for the soul reason of if it were parallel then the cap would accept the input and not through the coil, but a series LC would. And a regular series LC has no way of neutralizing the self inductance. So Tesla says that the coils internal capacitance is responsible for the neutralization of the self inductance.

Mags


Offline Magluvin

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1047 on: April 18, 2017, 09:55:19 PM »
If we have a 10,000 turn bifilar inductor, it should be pretty high in inductance. It should take longer for current from dc to get to max than most coils we have experienced.

How long would it take when we apply 100v dc for the capacitance to charge to 50v between each turn, based on what criteria would one need to make that determination?

Mags

Offline Magluvin

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1048 on: April 18, 2017, 10:07:54 PM »
If we have a 10,000 turn bifilar inductor, it should be pretty high in inductance. It should take longer for current from dc to get to max than most coils we have experienced.

How long would it take when we apply 100v dc for the capacitance to charge to 50v between each turn, based on what criteria would one need to make that determination?

Mags

Taking that a bit deeper, if we compared the time it took for the inductor to allow max current from initial input, as to the time it took the capacity to be fully charged to 50v after initial input, could we say that the inductance had any influence on the time it took for the capacity to reach 50v??? ??? ;)

Weird to think about aint it? ;D

Mags


Offline itsu

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Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1049 on: April 18, 2017, 10:26:18 PM »
In looking at your "TBP coil resonance 1" clip I can see how you have access to the left and right sides of the coil sitting in the CD case with your Hall sensor so you can do the measurement there.  You don't have to scan around the full 360 degrees of the edge of the coil.  The whole thing is symmetrical so there is no need to make more than a single measurement.

I redid my hall sensor measurements, including the edges like mentioned by TK.

Allthough the edges show a minimum negative signal, its all around the coil as far as i could see, so no flipping over.
I used a speaker magnet to compare the results and there we see the same effect that when skimming the magnet/coil
from left to right with the hall sensor at 90° we do see a flip over of the signal on the scope.

Anyway, i think it is all explainable with the field line drawing MH put up earlier.


Video here:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2dxMgjbR90o


Regards Itsu

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency
« Reply #1049 on: April 18, 2017, 10:26:18 PM »

 

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