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Author Topic: Simple Experiment: Extraction of Energy from Permanent Magnets  (Read 15048 times)

Offline MileHigh

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Re: Simple Experiment: Extraction of Energy from Permanent Magnets
« Reply #30 on: March 15, 2017, 07:15:25 PM »
Quote of quote:

Chances are the pulse energy will be smaller for the case of the large magnet.

So by that statement milehigh does support the deconstruction of the law of energy conservation, basicly saying what I said: the stronger the PM, the lower the coils consumption. Really surprising to hear that from Milehigh.

Thanks everybody for your interest and contributions.

No, you are coming to an incorrect conclusion.  See my previous post to Carroll.  You are failing to look at this experiment as an exercise in analyzing power or energy transfer dynamics in a system as you change one variable.  It is somewhat akin to impedance matching.  With the stronger magnet the system is more amenable to taking the supplied power from the pulse circuit and turning it into kinetic energy.  In essence, you have a more efficient motor with a more powerful magnet.  "Efficiency" means looking at waste heat energy versus useful output energy.  All discussions pertaining to issues like this that don't discuss waste heat energy and account for it are failing discussions.  What is the extreme limit?  If there is no magnet in place and you pulse the coil then it does not move and 100% of the pulser energy becomes waste heat energy.  Presumably, if you start from a very weak magnet and slowly increase the strength of the magnet the coil will get more and more kinetic energy from the pulser.  So you start with 0% efficiency with respect to kinetic energy as a percentage of pulser energy and that efficiency presumably increases as the magnet gets stronger.  Is there some limit to this because of other effects not being accounted for?  Perhaps there is, I don't know.

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Offline MileHigh

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Re: Simple Experiment: Extraction of Energy from Permanent Magnets
« Reply #31 on: March 15, 2017, 07:26:30 PM »
If a coil has zero resistance then once switched off (at correct time) you should be able collect back most of the input from the Inductive discharge.
The free lunch comes from the magnetic field created by the coil during its on time.

Taken from your quote above "I am almost shocked that I have never seen someone do it around here by optical means"

What do you think I did here? : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-zdfBbDarQw

To think I've just posted a link to this a few posts back.

Luc

Quote
If a coil has zero resistance then once switched off (at correct time) you should be able collect back most of the input from the Inductive discharge.
The free lunch comes from the magnetic field created by the coil during its on time.

I don't understand what you are saying.

Quote
What do you think I did here? : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-zdfBbDarQw

There is no optical speed measurement in the clip, "Mostly Magnet Motor Super build test 3."

Quote
To think I've just posted a link to this a few posts back.

Don't even start with the attitude, switch it off right now.  Beyond that, I haven't watched your clips for the past three or four years.


Offline dieter

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Re: Simple Experiment: Extraction of Energy from Permanent Magnets
« Reply #32 on: March 15, 2017, 07:33:31 PM »
@Zephir, by Dynamo (the farraday disc, homopolar) you mean the Magneto.
However, in conventional direct PM Generators the Lenz drag works against the input force. In a magnet motor the Lenz drag works against the PM, but can be weaker due to the recursive decay.


Speaking of which, there is only one recursion of induction, as the magnet will not mirror the secondary field.


In any way, I'd like to remind you of the essence of induction: when a field of an external magnet decreases in strength (because it's moving away) then the coil will attract the magnet (Lenz Drag).


But currently the pulse current does repell. So the induced current is opposite the pulsed current, increasing the resistance, decreasing the potential diffrence in voltage, heck, may even charge the battery.


And even so, the stronger magnet is repelled further away. In fact if a stronger magnet flies faster, the pulse may be shorter as well.


Sometimes these things are like glitches.

Offline dieter

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Re: Simple Experiment: Extraction of Energy from Permanent Magnets
« Reply #33 on: March 15, 2017, 08:02:24 PM »
Btw, Zephir, quote:


"The stronger magnet also induces stronger back electromotive force within the coil. That is, you would need to use higher voltage at the input for to achieve the same increase of current.."


That is true, but even with a lower current flowing, the stronger magnet still flies further away. And that's exactly the point. Less input, more output.


Offline gotoluc

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Re: Simple Experiment: Extraction of Energy from Permanent Magnets
« Reply #34 on: March 15, 2017, 09:07:20 PM »
I don't understand what you are saying.
MileHigh

I see!... anyone else having a problem understanding my quote below?

If a coil has zero resistance then once switched off (at correct time) you should be able collect back most of the input from the Inductive discharge.
The free lunch comes from the magnetic field created by the coil during its on time.
Luc



There is no optical speed measurement in the clip, "Mostly Magnet Motor Super build test 3."
MileHigh

That's correct!  no speed measurement in that clip.
The clip is about the part you wrote (bold) below.

I am almost shocked that I have never seen someone do it around here by optical means.  (Or you can flip the whole experiment on its side and measure the maximum height the pulsed coil jumps against gravity).
MileHigh

Don't even start with the attitude, switch it off right now.  Beyond that, I haven't watched your clips for the past three or four years.
MileHigh

Come on MH

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Simple Experiment: Extraction of Energy from Permanent Magnets
« Reply #34 on: March 15, 2017, 09:07:20 PM »
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Offline SkyWatcher123

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Re: Simple Experiment: Extraction of Energy from Permanent Magnets
« Reply #35 on: March 15, 2017, 09:10:00 PM »
Hi all, Hi dieter, this is all that matters,"That is true, but even with a lower current flowing, the stronger magnet still flies further away. And that's exactly the point. Less input, more output."
Some can spin a web of confusion and by the end of the day, it can be the size of an encyclopedia, ignore those, they only try to impede the development of something different.
They will try and get one to bury ones nose in books and equations and soon, we forget all about that stronger magnet flying further away and we try to defend what's in a book.
Hope you get my points here, as they are very important to avoid the webs.
I've built an air coil motor in the past, with neo magnet rotors on each side of thin coils.
With one coil powered by a given voltage input, watts input was say for example, 10 watts at a given rpm.
I could easily feel the shaft power with my hand and it was not much to speak of.
By adding more coils in series and raising the voltage at each step and maintaining the same rpm and wattage input, the shaft power increased dramatically, barely able to hold the shaft by hand without burning my fingers.
I also imagine this can be done by series/parallel coil arrangements, to lessen the need to raise the voltage too high and we could still keep the same rpm and wattage input, while raising observable shaft power to great levels.
You see, something simple can only be hidden, if it is over complicated by subterfuge.
peace love light

Offline MileHigh

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Re: Simple Experiment: Extraction of Energy from Permanent Magnets
« Reply #36 on: March 15, 2017, 09:36:48 PM »
That's correct!  no speed measurement in that clip.
The clip is about the part you wrote (bold) below.

Here is what I said, "Measuring velocity is such a critical measurement that I am almost shocked that I have never seen someone do it around here by optical means."

For some strange reason, you are making a very clumsy attempt at bait-and-switch.  I sat through your clip for eight minutes looking for an optical speed measurement and there was none.  Your English skills are impeccable, go back and read the earlier postings and you should be baffled also.

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Re: Simple Experiment: Extraction of Energy from Permanent Magnets
« Reply #36 on: March 15, 2017, 09:36:48 PM »
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Offline dieter

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Re: Simple Experiment: Extraction of Energy from Permanent Magnets
« Reply #37 on: March 15, 2017, 09:45:58 PM »
Indeed, we should get some "Hoffman-Lenses" to demask those Agent-Smithes, telling us to forget and get back into row with the other cattle ^^


Coils in series is also very promesing. In a coil, current flows only when it is loaded. As they say the current is following the voltage. What is then loaded can be regained in the collapsing field.


Whether huge PMs or huge coils, this makes the rotor heavy, but that's ok, see it as a flywheel.

Offline MileHigh

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Re: Simple Experiment: Extraction of Energy from Permanent Magnets
« Reply #38 on: March 15, 2017, 09:46:17 PM »
Hi all, Hi dieter, this is all that matters,"That is true, but even with a lower current flowing, the stronger magnet still flies further away. And that's exactly the point. Less input, more output."
Some can spin a web of confusion and by the end of the day, it can be the size of an encyclopedia, ignore those, they only try to impede the development of something different.
They will try and get one to bury ones nose in books and equations and soon, we forget all about that stronger magnet flying further away and we try to defend what's in a book.
Hope you get my points here, as they are very important to avoid the webs.

The above is nonsense talk.  Don't be a zombie on autopilot and try to suggest that what I am saying is wrong.  What is absolutely wrong is to not even consider waste heat energy on a web forum that is all about doing experiments and understanding energy issues.

Here is the simple fact:  You get more output because your changed the configuration from lots of waste heat and small output to less waste heat and larger output.  You are on an energy forum, are you suggesting that you can't understand this simple concept?

Plus I actually outline an experiment for you to do to prove to yourself with measurements that no extra energy is coming from the stronger magnet and the apparent "extra energy" comes from the fact that you reduced your waste heat and increased your useful output.  Anybody with a DSO and a ruler and a scale can do this experiment and prove if for themselves.

Don't tell me that I am "spinning a web of confusion" and that you can't master these very simple concepts.  I don't believe it, you can master these very simple concepts.

Offline gotoluc

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Re: Simple Experiment: Extraction of Energy from Permanent Magnets
« Reply #39 on: March 15, 2017, 09:46:33 PM »
Dear SkyWatcher

I hope you trust me and my real physical experiments I have done in the recent past.

My post on page 1 (link below) contains the explanation and real tests to explain why this effect Dieter has put forward will not achieve OU
http://overunity.com/17178/simple-experiment-extraction-of-energy-from-permanent-magnets/msg501793/#msg501793[/font][/size]

If Dieter does not believe my independent test results he will have to build the correct test device to measure the travel distance (weight) of the coil against gravity with a fixed (measured) Joule energy discharge to the coil and compare it to the distance conventional theory says it can travel.

Only then the claim of this topic "Extraction of Energy from Permanent Magnets" can be correct.

Without these measurements there is no use arguing what is correct.

I would be the first one to embrace such a thing but since I have already done the tests and measurement in the past I'm not going backwards.

Kind regards

Luc

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Re: Simple Experiment: Extraction of Energy from Permanent Magnets
« Reply #39 on: March 15, 2017, 09:46:33 PM »
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Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Simple Experiment: Extraction of Energy from Permanent Magnets
« Reply #40 on: March 15, 2017, 09:52:25 PM »
Quote from: MH
Measuring velocity is such a critical measurement that I am almost shocked that I have never seen someone do it around here by optical means.
So soon we forget, eh? I've done optical speed measurements in at least three different experimental contexts that I've reported on this forum.

Offline MileHigh

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Re: Simple Experiment: Extraction of Energy from Permanent Magnets
« Reply #41 on: March 15, 2017, 09:55:29 PM »
Indeed, we should get some "Hoffman-Lenses" to demask those Agent-Smithes, telling us to forget and get back into row with the other cattle ^^

You can also master the very simple concept of "when I pulse a coil, how much of the provided electrical energy becomes waste heat energy and how much of the provided electrical energy becomes useful output."  You are on an energy forum where you are supposed to try to understand how energy actually works and do experiments to confirm or deny hypotheses.

This is basic stuff that anybody should be able to understand and if you have a DSO, a ruler, and a scale you can do the experiment for yourself and prove it to yourself.  Make the magical transformation from a sheep into energy brainiac!


Offline gotoluc

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Re: Simple Experiment: Extraction of Energy from Permanent Magnets
« Reply #42 on: March 15, 2017, 09:56:12 PM »
Here is what I said, "Measuring velocity is such a critical measurement that I am almost shocked that I have never seen someone do it around here by optical means."

Yes but here is what you also wrote

I am almost shocked that I have never seen someone do it around here by optical means.  (Or you can flip the whole experiment on its side and measure the maximum height the pulsed coil jumps against gravity.
MileHigh

So I was going by your Or (option) comment

Are you saying you didn't write that?

Luc

Offline MileHigh

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Re: Simple Experiment: Extraction of Energy from Permanent Magnets
« Reply #43 on: March 15, 2017, 09:57:26 PM »
So soon we forget, eh? I've done optical speed measurements in at least three different experimental contexts that I've reported on this forum.

Sorry, but I have been an extremely light reader around here for years so your work was not noticed by me.


Offline MileHigh

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Re: Simple Experiment: Extraction of Energy from Permanent Magnets
« Reply #44 on: March 15, 2017, 10:09:37 PM »
Yes but here is what you also wrote

So I was going by your Or (option) comment

Are you saying you did not write that?

Luc

This is what you said:

Quote
Taken from your quote above "I am almost shocked that I have never seen someone do it around here by optical means"

And then you link to your clip.  Is there any optical velocity measurement in your clip?

Enough Luc, go reread everything and I know you will understand it perfectly well.  If you are trolling me then shame on you.  I posted an experiment to advance the understanding for everybody so they could prove to themselves that "a bigger magnet is not 'adding energy.'"  That is the topic of discussion.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2017, 03:13:02 AM by MileHigh »

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Re: Simple Experiment: Extraction of Energy from Permanent Magnets
« Reply #44 on: March 15, 2017, 10:09:37 PM »

 

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