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New Battery systems => Other new battery systems => Topic started by: sm0ky2 on February 24, 2017, 05:16:20 PM

Title: Leedskalnin's Perpetual Motion Holder in Electic form
Post by: sm0ky2 on February 24, 2017, 05:16:20 PM
after years of experimentation using magnetism in perpetual loops


Passing these currents through non-magnetic materials
and even inductive materials


It stands to reason the possibility of developing a perpetual
'Electric current' or rather a perpetual magnetic current through
an inductive material loop.


How is this possible?
As we know, placing an insulator or inductor in a perpetual magnetic
current for extended periods of time, imparts a degree of magnetism
to these non magnetic materials.


If an inductive loop be made of a material altered in this way
and a perpetual magnetic current then be established
We should expect to see a perpetual inductive force.
Or a Permanent Electric Holder. (PEH)





Title: Re: Leedskalnin's Perpetual Motion Holder in Electic form
Post by: webby1 on February 24, 2017, 08:19:42 PM
A little confused here,,

I take it that you are not talking about the dielectric between the plates of a capacitor or how that works,, but rather something different?
Title: Re: Leedskalnin's Perpetual Motion Holder in Electic form
Post by: sm0ky2 on February 25, 2017, 04:24:33 PM
A little confused here,,

I take it that you are not talking about the dielectric between the plates of a capacitor or how that works,, but rather something different?


I mean quite literally, an electric modality of the PMH


What is a PMH?  This is a continuous electromagnetic
flux loop, established as the magnetic propagation of current
through a loop of ferrous material.
It was first presented by Ed Leedskalnin- builder of Coral Castle.
Described in his book: Magnetic Currents
In this book are a series of electric and magnetic experiments
that display effects not understood by modern theory.


One of these experiments is the Perpetual Motion Holder (PMH).
Essentially the original device was a "u shaped" piece of
ferromagnetic material with a bar that can connect the two ends.
Opposite (attracting) coils are placed such that the N faces one end,
S faces the other.


An electric current of low potential is then pulsed through these coils,
This establishes a current which is almost entirely converted to the
magnetic domain by the ferrite. When this occurs the metal bar across
the ends will lock into place, like the 'keeper' of a horseshoe magnet.
Forever
Or until the magnetic lock is broken.  When broken, the collapsing
magnetic current will induce a pulse of electricity back through the
coils.
This can be minutes or years later in time.


Since then thousands of experiments have been shared, and repeated,
Giving rise to new shapes and forms of 'loops' to experiment with.


My thoughts are that, if we can eternally flux a magnetic current
We should be able to set up the same scenario electrically.



Title: Re: Leedskalnin's Perpetual Motion Holder in Electic form
Post by: shylo on February 25, 2017, 05:14:08 PM
I think that is what I'm trying to do.
I have four sets of coils , I use one set at a time for rotation , the other three for generating.
They all take turns ,either generating or motoring.
The magnetic field produced in the motoring coils, affects the generating coils.
I'm finding 90 degrees apart for motoring seems to work.
But still looking
artv
Title: Re: Leedskalnin's Perpetual Motion Holder in Electic form
Post by: sm0ky2 on February 25, 2017, 07:35:09 PM
Thanks artv


This is a good read with some accompanying videos
It gives one scientists perspective of the effects.


http://www.leedskalnin.com/leedskalninsperpetualmotionholder.html (http://www.leedskalnin.com/leedskalninsperpetualmotionholder.html)


Just stumbled upon this today
Title: Re: Leedskalnin's Perpetual Motion Holder in Electic form
Post by: sm0ky2 on February 25, 2017, 07:48:30 PM
Like if our coils themselves formed a loop
Toroid or whatever
And we used the magnetic air-core instead of metal


The effect seems not to care about the magnetic impedance
once the loop has been established



Title: Re: Leedskalnin's Perpetual Motion Holder in Electic form
Post by: pomodoro on February 26, 2017, 01:12:18 AM
Doubtv  there is anything OU in this. I discovered years ago that it works well without the special  winding. A normal solenoid type winding does the job. In the end I figured out that all I was making was a type of permanent magnet when the keeper was put on. The energy you normally get back when the field collapsed is stored as a magnetic field. Then, then you physically apply work in forcing the keeper off, you kill the magnetic field and you get back the energy through the could.  In other words, energy is stored in a magnetic field for a long time and the same energy is released later on when you collapse the field, except that the action of pulling the keeper off costs you extra work.
Title: Re: Leedskalnin's Perpetual Motion Holder in Electic form
Post by: pomodoro on February 26, 2017, 01:15:10 AM

Doubtv  there is anything OU in this. I discovered years ago that it works well without the special  winding. A normal solenoid type winding does the job. In the end I figured out that all I was making was a type of permanent magnet when the keeper was put on. The energy you normally get back when the field collapsed is stored as a magnetic field. Then, then you physically apply work in forcing the keeper off, you kill the magnetic field and you get back the energy through the coil In other words, energy is stored in a magnetic field for a long time and the same energy is released later on when you collapse the field, except that the action of pulling the keeper off costs you extra work.  It is rather special how the keeper needs to be put on after the current is applied, someone who studied magnets field probably has an answer. I did not take any readings of power in/out.
Title: Re: Leedskalnin's Perpetual Motion Holder in Electic form
Post by: tinman on February 26, 2017, 08:34:25 AM
So,dose the PMH show us a magnetic mono field?

I mean,if there exists a magnetic field within the core,until the loop is broken,then where is north,and where is south(so to speak)-where dose each pole start,and where do they finish ?.

If we know the magnetic field exists within the core,but there is no two pole's--is this not a mono magnetic field?.


Brad
Title: Re: Leedskalnin's Perpetual Motion Holder in Electic form
Post by: gyulasun on February 26, 2017, 12:13:22 PM
Hi Brad,

I think the same question could be asked in connection with a normal toroidal core: we wind say a full single layer coil on it and then we input DC current to the coil (making sure to avoid core saturation). Where are the poles in the closed toroidal core? 
Albeit not as straitforward comparison to a toroidal core case, what happens to the poles when we close the two prongs of a normal horse shoe magnet with a soft iron keeper? (Magnetic field strength strongly gets reduced outside around the original prongs.)

I would not consider the magnetic field in such cases a mono magnetic field, I would call it a closed magnetic field, the magnetic field strength may be uniformly distributed volume-wise inside a toridal core.  And the magnetic N or S poles could not be distinguished from each other in this case by a field polarity meter.  OF course, any assymetry in winding, cross section of the core etc may let some magnetic field leak out what could already be sensed by very sensitive sensors, both strength and pole orientation wise.

Gyula
Title: Re: Leedskalnin's Perpetual Motion Holder in Electic form
Post by: tinman on February 26, 2017, 02:09:18 PM
Hi Brad,

I think the same question could be asked in connection with a normal toroidal core: we wind say a full single layer coil on it and then we input DC current to the coil (making sure to avoid core saturation). Where are the poles in the closed toroidal core? 
Albeit not as straitforward comparison to a toroidal core case, what happens to the poles when we close the two prongs of a normal horse shoe magnet with a soft iron keeper? (Magnetic field strength strongly gets reduced outside around the original prongs.)

I would not consider the magnetic field in such cases a mono magnetic field, I would call it a closed magnetic field, the magnetic field strength may be uniformly distributed volume-wise inside a toridal core.  And the magnetic N or S poles could not be distinguished from each other in this case by a field polarity meter.  OF course, any assymetry in winding, cross section of the core etc may let some magnetic field leak out what could already be sensed by very sensitive sensors, both strength and pole orientation wise.

Gyula

So ,when we pulse a coil that is rapped around a toroid core,the magnetic field continues to exist within that core until we reverse pulse the coil-at which time the magnetic field is now !!spinning!!? in the opposite direction around the toroid core for all time,or until such time as we pulse it once again,with the opposite polarity.

Even though we cannot measure a voltage from the coil,due to the magnetic field not changing in time,we know that the magnetic field still exist within the core-even when you short the two ends of the coil.

So ,not only are we trying to build a new electric field around the coil when we switch polarity,but also trying the reverse the magnetic field that exists within the core it self.

Also,if the fields cannot be distinguished from one another,how can it not be one field?-a magnetic field without a north and south(as we have termed it). It's much like mixing red paint with yellow paint at a 1:1 ratio--we then have only orange paint.


Brad
Title: Re: Leedskalnin's Perpetual Motion Holder in Electic form
Post by: gyulasun on February 26, 2017, 02:28:35 PM
see answers below
Title: Re: Leedskalnin's Perpetual Motion Holder in Electic form
Post by: gyulasun on February 26, 2017, 09:35:53 PM
So, when we pulse a coil that is wrapped around a toroid core, the magnetic field continues to exist within that core

I believe it depends on the remanent magnetic properties of a particular toroid core. I think also that in case the 'perpetual motion holder' is made of solid iron, the several Amper input current involved behaves just like a normal magnetization process takes place to make a permanent magnet from a magnetizable material: it organizes the magnetic domains.
Here are two videos you may or may not have seen and I think these tests are a good example how this phenomena depends on the magnetic properties of the different cores:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SHbQXnXK6Xc (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SHbQXnXK6Xc)  Part 1 (9 minute long)   
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BsN2sr3U0PY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BsN2sr3U0PY)    Part 2 (2 minute long)

Quote
until we reverse pulse the coil -at which time the magnetic field is now !!spinning!!? in the opposite direction around the toroid core for all time, or until such time as we pulse it once again, with the opposite polarity.

I do not know whether the field or whatever inside is 'spinning' or not, I think a reverse pulse would rearrange the direction of the magnetic domains and the field would also be maintained like in the earlier polarity case.

Quote
Even though we cannot measure a voltage from the coil, due to the magnetic field not changing in time, we know that the magnetic field still exist within the core -even when you short the two ends of the coil.

Well, a test done at and from video time 4:00 in Part 1 of the above link shows the behaviour of two core types in this respect.

Quote
So, not only are we trying to build a new electric field around the coil when we switch polarity, but also trying the reverse the magnetic field that exists within the core itself.

Yes, when we reverse the direction of the input current we invariably flip the magnetic polarity exerted onto the core too.

Quote
Also, if the fields cannot be distinguished from one another, how can it not be one field? -a magnetic field without a north and south (as we have termed it). It's much like mixing red paint with yellow paint at a 1:1 ratio--we then have only orange paint.

 Let me suggest the following thought experiment: suppose we are able to move a tiny compass inside a toroidal core on which a coil is biased with DC current (or we could move a tiny compass inside a perpetual motion holder).

Suppose we position the compass inside the toroid core at 12 o'clock and it shows say North to the right and shows South to the left of the 12 i.e. the compass would set in tangentially to the core circle at 12 o'clock. I think when we would move the tiny compass say in the cw direction within the core body, the compass would always show a leading North as it would move ahead in cw direction, it would never turn direction so that a leading South would never come somewhere within the core during this cw direction movement. We could perform any full circle in cw, we would always have a leading North indicated on the tiny compass.
When we would reverse the input current direction, only then would our tiny compass change direction.

This is how I see this. Of course I am sure I cannot answer several things which may crop up with this topic.

Gyula
Title: Re: Leedskalnin's Perpetual Motion Holder in Electic form
Post by: gyulasun on February 26, 2017, 09:43:23 PM
double post, deleted
Title: Re: Leedskalnin's Perpetual Motion Holder in Electic form
Post by: Searcher1o1 on February 27, 2017, 12:17:04 AM
So if the magnetic field continues to circulate the electric field never collapses.
 
Evidently a ferrous core cant be used in a dc pulsed system.

Went down the same road about a month ago.

Russ left a pmh hanging for two years and when he broke the magnetic field the electric field collapsed and lit leds.

Was the TPU air core or maybe a single strand of wire.
Title: Re: Leedskalnin's Perpetual Motion Holder in Electic form
Post by: Searcher1o1 on February 27, 2017, 12:35:09 AM
Tesla gave us a gift that is overlooked, the rotary switch, a simple wheel with magnets passing reed switches will allow numerous coils to be pulsed in numerous configurations.
Just some ideas to ponder  :)
Title: Re: Leedskalnin's Perpetual Motion Holder in Electic form
Post by: dieter on February 28, 2017, 11:31:00 PM
A closed Magnetic Fluxpath, caused by a coil, will store its magnetic field until the coil is allowed to have current flow. But as the field is static, no current will flow, unless you kickstart it o one or another direction.


Same with transformers. Stack 2 on eachother, touch with battery, they stick together.


Ed had some more important discoveries, that I recently understood. However.
Title: Re: Leedskalnin's Perpetual Motion Holder in Electic form
Post by: Cherryman on February 28, 2017, 11:38:59 PM
...


Ed had some more important discoveries, that I recently understood. However.


I second that Sir,


For me: 


Charge travels on the outside
Enclosing an (electromagnet) from the outside strengthens the directed magnetic field


Ed was a wise man

Title: Re: Leedskalnin's Perpetual Motion Holder in Electic form
Post by: shylo on March 01, 2017, 12:45:44 AM
"Charge travels on the outside" Yes ,
"Enclosing an (electromagnet) from the outside strengthens the directed magnetic field", No, it concentrates it to the center.
It reduces it's influence on the surrounding area.
Don't try to stop doing it from what it, wants to do , try and use that to influence what you want to happen.
artv
 
Title: Re: Leedskalnin's Perpetual Motion Holder in Electic form
Post by: shylo on March 01, 2017, 11:45:25 PM
hang some magnets on strings,
spin one. now approach it with another magnet on a string,see what happens.
get 2 spinning then add a third,
it can probably go on forever, I don't know.
Does anybody really know?
artv
Title: Re: Leedskalnin's Perpetual Motion Holder in Electic form
Post by: Cherryman on March 02, 2017, 12:40:08 AM
Shylo, that reminds me reminds me of the good ol' Jonny Davro.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XuVtKYfSDI8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XuVtKYfSDI8)
Title: Re: Leedskalnin's Perpetual Motion Holder in Electic form
Post by: sm0ky2 on March 17, 2017, 12:26:49 AM
The raw and unfiltered truth


https://www.jstor.org/stable/108001?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents (https://www.jstor.org/stable/108001?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents)

Title: Re: Leedskalnin's Perpetual Motion Holder in Electic form
Post by: pomodoro on March 17, 2017, 01:08:37 AM
The raw and unfiltered truth


https://www.jstor.org/stable/108001?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents (https://www.jstor.org/stable/108001?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents)


Well done! This looks to be the original discovery , well before leedskalin. 
Title: Re: Leedskalnin's Perpetual Motion Holder in Electic form
Post by: sm0ky2 on March 17, 2017, 06:11:19 AM

Well done! This looks to be the original discovery , well before leedskalin.


Yes. It appears so. I haven't finished reading it yet but all the info seems to be there
No psychobabble
Still looking for the complete original source, this was an excerpt in a publication.
1830's or something
Title: Re: Leedskalnin's Perpetual Motion Holder in Electic form
Post by: pomodoro on March 17, 2017, 09:07:17 AM
I think that is the complete artice.

Watkins also published a book called
A Popular Sketch of Electro-magnetism, Or Electro-dynamics

found on google books, I haven't had time to read that one.
Title: Re: Leedskalnin's Perpetual Motion Holder in Electic form
Post by: sm0ky2 on March 17, 2017, 04:58:40 PM
That site has many articles of the royal society journals
And as sad as the fact is......


All of the experiments found in Ed's book
"Magnetic Current"
Can be found in articles published in the royal society of London
From 1826-1854


He read these articles and compiled a list of strange effects not
commonly talked about in science.
When seen in perspective and contextual detail, we find that
Ed Leedskalnin was full of a bunch of Hooplah.


That being said, his work does present these phenomena in a way
that the common man can perform himself.
Although presented in a pseudoscientific manner, that distracts from
the true knowledge.


I therefore recommend that all followers of Ed. L.:
 Take the time to read through the royal society journals.
In fact, everyone should do so, as they contain original writings
From some of the greats, like Faraday,
And brilliant minds we never hear about in history.
Title: Re: Leedskalnin's Perpetual Motion Holder in Electic form
Post by: sm0ky2 on March 17, 2017, 05:19:17 PM
Back to the topic


The royal society article describes a method of locking the PMH
Using a permanent magnet rather than electric current.
This proves that the effect is not solely electrical in nature.
But can be purely magnetic.


We know through galvanic degradation that there exists
electrical potentials within the metal. but we have no
point of reference to measure their magnitude.


We know that the magnetic field is inverted or contracted.
The release of which, causes a field expansion, rather than a
field collapse.
This is conceptually the inverse of a field collapse, when the
magnetic circuit is broken.


Due to the interrelated nature of the magnetic and electric
components of electromagnetism - it stands to reason that
a circuit of electrical nature can be made to perform this action.


I propose that an electrical conductor of paramagnetic material
be fashioned internally to the center of the pmh
To act as a 'wire' placed in parallel path of the magnetic current.
Around this shall be placed a copper wire of very thin, coated or insulated
coils, of several turns.
This cored coil then be inserted into a groove in the middle of the
PMH material.
Holes be drilled or grooved so as to exit the copper wires from the device.


When magnetized or "locked", the PMH as well as the core of the electric coil
will conduct a perpetual magnetic current.
And if there is any fluctuation or change in magnetism internally
We should be able to detect it on the coil.
Such a test, if successful, would warrant construction of a very large PMH



Title: Re: Leedskalnin's Perpetual Motion Holder in Electic form
Post by: pomodoro on March 18, 2017, 11:20:35 AM
Isn't it the alignment of electron spins that causes ferromagnetism?  Its not a perpetual current
Title: Re: Leedskalnin's Perpetual Motion Holder in Electic form
Post by: Searcher1o1 on March 18, 2017, 05:55:58 PM
If you wound coils on a toroid coil form like the pmh and pulsed them with dc would you get transformer action between the coils.
Would it be femf


Title: Re: Leedskalnin's Perpetual Motion Holder in Electic form
Post by: pix on March 18, 2017, 06:18:23 PM

There is no mystery in Leedskalnin's Perpetual Motion Holder.
It exploits simple phenomena of soft magnetic materials HYSTERESIS.
Soft iron once magnetized  it keeps domains aligned, and as it is in closed loop - this magnetism keeps the steel bar attached to "U" bar.
You need to insert some energy to destroy domains aligment and align them in opposite side.
That's why every transformer has energy loses due to hysteresis.


Regards,
Pix