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Author Topic: Is The Iron-Core Of An Electromagnet Overunity ?  (Read 1514 times)

Offline guest1289

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Is The Iron-Core Of An Electromagnet Overunity ?
« on: February 22, 2017, 08:02:36 PM »
    I had to correct the title of this thread, and also clarify/correct some errors I made when I posted the previous one.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnet
Quote
A core can increase the magnetic field to thousands of times the strength of the field of the coil alone

   The quote above from wikipedia  seems to indicate it is overunity.

   But I remember seeing this subject discussed on another thread here( I can't find that thread at the moment ) in very recent months,    and they mentioned that the  'iron-core'  'concentrates' the field of the electric-coil,  they described a particular  electromagnet as having no range at all,  in other words it would only attract something to it, if the object to be attracted was actually  already touching the  electromagnet,  but I think the other main factor is how much surface area needs to already be touching between the electromagnet  and the object it is trying to attract,  before it will effectively attract it

      However, I thought that the  iron-cores in electromagnets actually function by having all their atoms/electrons  lined up in one  particular-direction by the field of the electric-coil,  so that if it is true to say that   "A core can increase the magnetic field to thousands of times the strength of the field of the coil alone"  then that may be the  best,  or  only( I don't know )  example of energy-amplification  via  geometric means,  that I know of.
     (  so there  must  reach a stage in the  iron-core,  where sufficient atoms/electrons have been lined up in one-particular  direction,   that there is then sufficient atoms/electrons lined up in  that-particular direction to force all the rest of the atoms/electrons in the  iron-core  to line up in  that-particular  direction  )

   Also
   -  What actually happens if you run a wire-loop from one side of the "iron-core" of the electromagnet to the other side of the "iron-core" ,  surely there is no impressive current produced.
         
  Also
   -  This also made me wonder about people's attempted overunity designs consisting of coils( air-cores ) inducing current in other coils( air-cores ), to make overunity-generators, 
        Is it possible that the coils( air-cores, secondary-coils ) being induced,  are functioning like  the    'iron-cores'  of  electromagnets "A core can increase the magnetic field to thousands of times the strength of the field of the coil alone" ,  that because of the  'correct' specifications'  of these  Secondary-Coils/Induced-Coils( wire-thickness, diameters, I don't know ),  that they are able to achieve a greater output than the input of the  primary-coils( air-cores ).
          (  And yes, I realize that often in these designs,  they are often going for the resonance-effect,  but who knows if the resonance effect could be connected( or mistaken for ) to the iron-core effect and how,  you could probably come up with 10 different theories )

       This is a subject I know nothing about.

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Offline forest

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Re: Is The Iron-Core Of An Electromagnet Overunity ?
« Reply #1 on: February 23, 2017, 05:28:48 PM »
Congratulations ! You have found it! The overunity is magnetic field, because magnetic field is the source of energy. If you concentrate or enlarge or magnify magnetic field by any way , you find overunity (no, not so easy, you have to know how to tap it)


Offline guest1289

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Re: Is The Iron-Core Of An Electromagnet Overunity ?
« Reply #2 on: March 05, 2017, 06:04:11 PM »
Regardless of  electromagnets( with iron-cores ) powered by very-small batteries,  that can attract surprisingly very heavy weights.

I am not totally sure if  electromagnets( with iron-cores ), actually produce overunty  ?
-  They need input-current
-  Everything I read and common sense says that the strength of an electromagnet( with an iron-core ) seems directly proportional to the  input-current.
   Maybe if you unraveled the wire making up the electric-coil of an  electromagnet,  and then use some sort of viewer to measure all of the  magnetic-field/electromagnetic-field-? of that wire,  in order to determine if just the  electric-wire  by itself could  theoretically  produce  a  magnetic-field/electromagnetic-field-?  just as strong as the one it induces in an  'iron-core'.

However, 
 - I have also read that the  coil  of an electromagnet( with an iron-core ) has to be supplied with  'enough'  input power to overcome the  'resistance' of the  'iron-core' ,  before that  'iron-core'  will emit any  magnetic-field. 
       The stage at which it reaches overunity ?
       ( I assume anyone attempting to build a free-energy generator,  should never supply the coil  with more power than it needs to overcome the  'resistance' of the  'iron-core',  otherwise  'inefficiency' could be a factor )
  __________________

If An  Electromagnet  Produces  Overunity,   Then,   Can  A  Temporary-Magnet( made of an Iron-Core being induced by a  Permanent-Magnet/non-electric magnet),   Also  Produce  Overunity ?

An  Electric-Coil  Can Turn An  Iron-Core  Into A  'Temporary-Magnet',  And,  A  Permanent-Magnet  Can Also Turn An  Iron-Core  Into A  'Temporary-Magnet',  But  Is There A  Difference.

The  'electromagnetic-field'  emitted by the wire which makes up the coil  of an Electromagnet,  is actually rotating,  it is not a  static  magnetic-field  like that of a  Permanent-Magnet. 
     The  'electromagnetic-field'  emitted by the coil of  the  Electromagnet   contains an  'Electric-Field' which  'may'  or may not be rotating,    and that  'Electric-Field'  'may'  or may not be rotating along a different,  or identical axis,  to that of the  magnetic-field  being emitted.
     ( Can / should,    that  'Electric-Field' be viewed  completely separately to the  Magnetic-Field/Electromagnetic-field?  being emitted  ?  )
     This  rotating  'electromagnetic-field'  is  precisely the reason why  Faraday's first electric-motor worked,  and why that motor can not function just by using  permanent-magnets  alone. 

  So,  is  the 'Electric-field'  which  'may'  or may not be rotating,  causing/generating a magnetic-field in the  iron-core,  or rather,  an  'additional'  magnetic-field  in the  iron-core ?

   
Quote
I have read that the  coil  of an electromagnet( with an iron-core ) has to be supplied with  'enough'  input power to overcome the  'resistance' of the  'iron-core' ,  before that  'iron-core'  will emit any  magnetic-field.

       The  Temporary-Magnet( made of an Iron-Core )  Being Induced By A   Permanent-Magnet( Non-Electric )  'Equivalent' of  "has to be supplied with  'enough'  input power to overcome the  'resistance' of the  'iron-core"  ,   would be to slowly push a  'Permanent-Magnet' toward an 'Iron-Core' and see at what distance it can turn the  'Iron-Core' into a  Temporary-Magnet.
  __________________

  The Following Is An Alternate Theory I Made,  Which I Assume Has No Validity.

  Although This Theory Can Relate To Electromagnets Being Powered By Smooth / Steady Current Like That From Chemical-Batteries,  admittedly,  it more strongly relates to the emission of electromagnetic-fields  from  electrical-conductors,  and to electrical-resistance.

    That theory is that  the  'electromagnetic-field'  emitted by electric-wires,  and what we call electrical-resistance ( the heat from  electric-heating-elements in stoves, and light from old light-bulb-filaments ),  is  actually generated  by  electromagnetic-eddies  occurring inside of the  electric-wire/conductors,   'BECAUSE',   all the power sources we use,   including  'Chemical-Batteries,   are actually producing power at a   frequency which is not  smooth-enough/steady-enough  to  prevent that  power  from  causing  microscopic electromagnetic-eddies  inside of the  electric-wire/conductors.

   The main reason I came up with this  theory  is because I  can not find 'anywhere',  any mention of what is the  'Frequency' of the power given by  'Chemical-Batteries',  in other words,   where on those  charts/diagrams of the electromagnetic-spectrum( which go from radio-waves to light-waves and higher etc ),  is the 'Frequency' of the power given by  'Chemical-Batteries'.
   (  Of course I would assume that 'Chemical-Batteries' have no frequency, that it is just completely  smooth/steady  power,   but is that actually true,  what if you had a battery containing such a  small amount of liquid( say 50 or 100 atoms of battery fluid ),  then could you start detecting a frequency            )

   (  So this could mean that  electromagnetic-eddies  are  generated in the 'iron-core' of an electromagnet,  which may make it a  stronger  'Temporary-Magnet'  than a   'Temporary-Magnet' which is just being induced by a  permanent-magnet( non-electric).
       However,  what if even  permanent-magnets  have a frequency,   For-Example,  a  permanent-magnet  made of only  5-atoms,  but even in that example,  I cannot see why it would have any type of frequency,  but of course thats something I know nothing about. )

Offline dieter

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Re: Is The Iron-Core Of An Electromagnet Overunity ?
« Reply #3 on: March 05, 2017, 06:40:41 PM »
The iron core is passive and only helps to focus the field of the coil. It does that by offering high permeability to the surroundings. In AC induction this helps to guide a polarity flip and its flux change trough the entire space between core and the theoretical coreless field. It reduces stray fields and increases efficiency.


In a dc magnet utilizing Leedskalnins PMH there are more aspects to it, but I yet don't see any overunity features.



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Re: Is The Iron-Core Of An Electromagnet Overunity ?
« Reply #4 on: March 05, 2017, 06:48:52 PM »
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Offline guest1289

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Re: Is The Iron-Core Of An Electromagnet Overunity ?
« Reply #5 on: March 05, 2017, 07:41:08 PM »
Quote
The iron core is passive and only helps to focus the field of the coil.

  That sounds more believable than overunity
   ( although I still believe there  'may'   have been some overunity-generators that worked in the past and present, that used   'iron-cores',   but who really knows what the source of their overunity was / is )

   If the  motor/device you posted is designed to utilize the energy of  electromagnetic-eddies,  instead of working against them,  that is exactly what  erfinder 's  device must do,  because that is what he repeatedly states,  he posted a video in the last week or two, 
     basically I think his device must be generating as much  electromagnetic-eddies  as possible,  and he channels that current of the wheel( or something),    that wheel does not seem to spin as fast as you'd expect to create such a high power spark,   it must be an unusually efficient generator,  something like a very modified  Faraday-disk-generator,  or,  is that wheel made of a static or anti-static plastic
   (  I had a really odd idea,  that if you put strong neos on one side( or inside or something ) of the farday-disk,   if that disk was made of almost anything other than copper,  or ,  if the entire disk was actually a magnet,  that that would increase the amount of  electromagnetic-eddies  produced by a significant factor
   I don't know if   erfinder 's  device   is a self-running device,  I can't see any mention of it being one,  however I thought he implied earlier it is one
   
   _____________

   I wanted to add to my previous post on this thread,  I wonder if the  magnetic-field-component  of the  electromagnetic-field  emitted by electrical-conductors,  is as a result of electrical-conductors  being turned into  'temporary-magnets'  by the electric-current flowing through them,  effectively like  'temporary-magnets'   induced by  permanent-magnets(non-electric ),     and the  electric-field-component of their  electromagnetic-field is from the electric-current .


Offline Erfinder

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Re: Is The Iron-Core Of An Electromagnet Overunity ?
« Reply #6 on: March 05, 2017, 08:03:11 PM »
 
   If the  motor/device you posted is designed to utilize the energy of  electromagnetic-eddies,  instead of working against them,  that is exactly what  erfinder 's  device must do,  because that is what he repeatedly states,  he posted a video in the last week or two, 


Uh....sorry.....you have no idea what my device must do....



     basically I think his device must be generating as much  electromagnetic-eddies  as possible,  and he channels that current of the wheel( or something), 


Uh....sorry....no...my device is not generating electromagnetic-eddies....   


that wheel does not seem to spin as fast as you'd expect to create such a high power spark, 


It's spinning faster than you think....it's a well built machine...runs pretty quiet, and very smooth, has good lube in the bearings....




it must be an unusually efficient generator,  something like a very modified  Faraday-disk-generator,  or,  is that wheel made of a static or anti-static plastic


I am not concerned with the efficiency of the device, and no its nothing to do with the Faraday disk generator, nor is it a wheel made of static or anti-static plastic....
   


 
I don't know if   erfinder 's  device   is a self-running device,  I can't see any mention of it being one,  however I thought he implied earlier it is one
   
No, my device is NOT self running.  This was never implied, EVER!


 

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Re: Is The Iron-Core Of An Electromagnet Overunity ?
« Reply #6 on: March 05, 2017, 08:03:11 PM »
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Offline dieter

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Re: Is The Iron-Core Of An Electromagnet Overunity ?
« Reply #7 on: March 05, 2017, 08:07:38 PM »
I think there is only a magnetic field and an electric field, but no electromagnetic field. There is electromagnetic interaction tho. The creation of a magnetic field around a conductor is a sideeffect that by its own is for free, but when this field induces current flow externally (be it eddy currents, a coil, any ring...), this current flow causes the secondary magnetic fields, basicly following Lenzes law and counterinducing an opposite current flow, partially neutralizing the primary field.


Eddy currents, being 1turn shortened coils, will basicly generate heat waste, as in induction cooking plates.


But iron, even tho passive, truely holds the key to various OU concepts, as it is a temporary magnet or magnetic vector deformer.


I myself use Iron to actually violate the law of conservation of energy. But you cannot simply plug a cord to it, it takes a bit more.


See my latest pdf in the files download section if you're interested in how I do that.

Offline Zephir

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Re: Is The Iron-Core Of An Electromagnet Overunity ?
« Reply #8 on: March 05, 2017, 08:18:21 PM »
Quote
Is The Iron-Core Of An Electromagnet Overunity?
It's the concentrator of energy. But there is probably much more to hide (1, 2, 3,...). The ferromagnetism is high-temperature quantum phenomena, i.e. analogy of room temperature superconductivity, which still waits for this recognition. And the quantum mechanics could violate thermodynamic time arrow in wide extent. The important point is, the ability of iron to concentrate the energy can be switched on and off just by its magnetization. At high magnetic flux the iron behaves just like the aluminum or copper with respect to magnet - it's not magnetic anymore, being "saturated". The trick is just in concentration of energy, which requires some time for to establish itself. Before the steady-state equilibrium and energy balance gets established, some portion of energy could leak both into, both from outside environment, for example in form of heat.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2017, 01:48:32 AM by Zephir »

Offline guest1289

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Re: Is The Iron-Core Of An Electromagnet Overunity ?
« Reply #9 on: March 09, 2017, 08:36:54 PM »
Quote
I am not concerned with the efficiency of the device, and no its nothing to do with the Faraday disk generator, nor is it a wheel made of static or anti-static plastic....

 the spark in your video,  seems different to something like the spark from an  arc-welder,

 all this is an area I know nothing about,   and  I don't know if you have actually claimed a specific achievement

 the spark in your video  reminded me of how the light/electricity  produced by  Moray's famous device was described by the people who inspected it,  and  the photos of  it ,  although I  type that because I can't think of any other comment,  since you don't seem to make specific claims

  obviously your device has nothing to do with Moray's device( and Moray's device is more or less confirmed to be atomic powered ),  however,  his device may have produced an  extremely  high-frequency  output

   maybe your device multiplies frequency to such an extent that it produces a frequency that is almost never encountered by people on this site

  (  or maybe it does  'something-similar-to'  combining 2 currents with an identical waveform into one output,  but 100% out of phase from each other, 
     or,  maybe it combines currents with different waveforms   )

  you repeat the term  'reactive' in your posts,  maybe you have found a way to make 'conducting-materials' react to achieve what ever it is,  maybe by a method similar to one I mentioned in this post

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Re: Is The Iron-Core Of An Electromagnet Overunity ?
« Reply #9 on: March 09, 2017, 08:36:54 PM »
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