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Author Topic: Searching for Buddy in promising magnet motor Project.  (Read 4240 times)

Offline dieter

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Re: Searching for Buddy in promising magnet motor Project.
« Reply #45 on: February 15, 2017, 06:44:05 AM »
Wouldn't just placing a strong neo at one end of a 6 inch long, 32nd of an inch,
 piece of laminate steel ,give you your, strong, thin, magnet ,at the opposite end?
artv
Thanks, but I'm afraid not. Iron typically and excessively adopts the magnetic polarity based on its own shape. Only oversaturated iron ignores the shape. So if you stick a magnet to a nail or sheet, the poles will be at the two ends, which is what I use in the flield shaping part, but I have to hide this shaped field behind PM, see also recent pics.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy


Offline dieter

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Re: Searching for Buddy in promising magnet motor Project.
« Reply #46 on: February 15, 2017, 07:03:47 AM »
[/font]@DeiterTo be honest, after the first standard obscurities, when you Began to vaguely describe your idea...You lost me.I have no idea in what context you mean to say "increasing magnetic field"Because you associate this also with "approachig field" concepts.To me these are two separate mechanisms of magnetic fields.Strength, being a matter of density, separate from field dimensions Together, size and strength of the field give its characteristics of field gradient.Electromagnetic fields are different, in that they have the electric vector andassociated time constant.In a permanent magnet, the electric vector is 90-degrees to that of induction,and manifests itself as a purely magnetic effect on the large scale.Thus there is no "time".I tried to follow you through your rants about other people's inability toUnderstand what you are talking about, and then again you lost meWhen you described an unobtainable magnet size.Now I'm in America And it seemed to me that you want a magnet That is 2inches in diameter , and 0.2 inches thick???That would likely break itself in any conceivable use platform.Is there no way for you to use something thicker?If not, my suggestion would be to sacrifice "field strength"For the ability to obtain a smaller physical size magnet.Something like ironferrite or Sumeriam-cobaltThese could be safely cut that thin and hold up against Minor abuse.There are also magnetic tape, and sheets of thin stuffYou can cut.These are mostly soft-rubber magnets with some %ferriteand are weaker than ceramics of similar dimension.Ceramicferrite magnets may work for whatever you are trying To do, just use caution when breaking or cutting them.You can scratch a groove in a ceramic and get them toBreak along fairly straight lines.As far as "back emf" is concerned:Here is only one Authority whom understands the process Of back emf, and how to eliminate or avoid it.His name is Jim MurrayThis is just a you tube video, short and to the pointBut I recommend viewing a few of his lectures.https://youtu.be/HK3JOlY0V8YThis is the foremost expert in the field of back-emf researchAnd the only man on earth to successfully demonstrate how toAvoid back emf in three formats: magnetic-mechanical, electric,And with solid-state electronics.He is also an expert in recycling electricity through circuits,Using feedback loops and switches to return current through aCircuit, from whence it came.Thus double, triple using it, or more until it is all "really used".Yes- he figured out that we don't use most of our electricity We just pass it through the circuit and let it go.He knows how to catch it and bring it back.
[/font]
@Smoky,


thanks a lot for your suggestions. Did I really say "increasing magnetic field"? Not rather "Increasing magnetic fieldstrength"?
Well you guys think way to much. You assume this is some super complicated, abstract stuff, while I am actually just speaking of a permanent magnet, that is moving towards a coil. No surprise the magnetic field, at the location of the coil, is getting stronger. This is simple stuff, don't overcomplicate it ^^


Anyway, thanks.


Offline dieter

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Re: Searching for Buddy in promising magnet motor Project.
« Reply #47 on: February 15, 2017, 07:24:52 AM »
@ Floor
Quote
It's not that the basics are invalid...  I  think rather that...it is the assumptions


That is precisely what I think about the Lenz Law.
Basicly it says, when you induce a current, you'll get not only the current for your magnet motion, but as a bonus also the reactive, secondary field, for free. Unfortunately tho, Lenz continues, this free bonus energy will always be directed against the primary, inducing field.


It is unscientific to say that. He could have said "We haven't found a way around it yet".


It's all about Prestige... eg. what sounds better, Floors Observations or Floors Law?

Offline dieter

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Re: Searching for Buddy in promising magnet motor Project.
« Reply #48 on: February 15, 2017, 07:29:14 AM »
@ All, in case you missed it, please see new FEMM screenshots with explanation on Page 3, thanks.


Offline sm0ky2

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Re: Searching for Buddy in promising magnet motor Project.
« Reply #49 on: February 15, 2017, 08:41:41 AM »
When you stick iron to a magnet, in any form, shield or not
You redirect some of the field into and through the metal.


A real simple test to show if your motor will work as conceptualised
Would be to place a magnet in front of a coil and without moving the
Magnet - stick of iron around the magnet to "decrease" the field from
the coils perspective.
And see if any induction occurs.




Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Searching for Buddy in promising magnet motor Project.
« Reply #49 on: February 15, 2017, 08:41:41 AM »
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Offline Low-Q

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Re: Searching for Buddy in promising magnet motor Project.
« Reply #50 on: February 15, 2017, 01:57:40 PM »
When you stick iron to a magnet, in any form, shield or not
You redirect some of the field into and through the metal.


A real simple test to show if your motor will work as conceptualised
Would be to place a magnet in front of a coil and without moving the
Magnet - stick of iron around the magnet to "decrease" the field from
the coils perspective.
And see if any induction occurs.
That is exactly how electric guitar pickups work. There are magnetized iron rods close to each string. As the magnetic strings viberates, a signal is induced in the coil around the rods, and sends this signal to an amplifier.


Vidar

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Re: Searching for Buddy in promising magnet motor Project.
« Reply #51 on: February 15, 2017, 02:06:05 PM »
@ Floor

That is precisely what I think about the Lenz Law.
Basicly it says, when you induce a current, you'll get not only the current for your magnet motion, but as a bonus also the reactive, secondary field, for free. Unfortunately tho, Lenz continues, this free bonus energy will always be directed against the primary, inducing field.


It is unscientific to say that. He could have said "We haven't found a way around it yet".


It's all about Prestige... eg. what sounds better, Floors Observations or Floors Law?
We haven't found a way around yet. That's true. However, I think that peopole stopped looking for it because the evedence is so obvious. Maybe they think "Why try to deny something that nature has already proven a godzillion times". It's basicly not worth it - my opinion.
Cause and effect is still valid untill someone cause something that doesn't have any effect. Or find the effect that did not have any known cause - like the Big Bang. Yes "known cause" - we just know there was a cause, but not what cause.


Vidar

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Searching for Buddy in promising magnet motor Project.
« Reply #51 on: February 15, 2017, 02:06:05 PM »
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Offline dieter

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Re: Searching for Buddy in promising magnet motor Project.
« Reply #52 on: February 15, 2017, 04:38:26 PM »

@ Smoky
Quote
When you stick iron to a magnet, in any form, shield or not
You redirect some of the field into and through the metal.
That is because of it's high permeability. Trying to connect to the other pole, the magnet is searching for that other pole all the way trough the iron. It will prefer to follow the iron over air, even if that brings it further away from that other pole, but especially when it brings it closer.
Quote
fA real simple test to show if your motor will work as conceptualisedWould be to place a magnet in front of a coil and without moving the
Magnet - stick of iron around the magnet to "decrease" the field from
the coils perspective.
And see if any induction occurs.


Yes, it does. Actually, this was the first thing I noticed, which started the whole thing.
Whether you increase or reduce the magnetic strength at the location of the coil, both induces current and the coil doesn't care how you do that, by approaching a permanent magnet, or by shielding a fixed magnet.


You should really watch my FEMM simulation pics and read the corresponding explanations on Page 3 of this thread, because you are asking questions already answered, more than once :) But I get used to it ^^

Offline dieter

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Re: Searching for Buddy in promising magnet motor Project.
« Reply #53 on: February 15, 2017, 05:19:35 PM »
@ Vidar


Quote
We haven't found a way around yet. That's true. However, I think that peopole stopped looking for it because the evedence is so obvious. Maybe they think "Why try to deny something that nature has already proven a godzillion times". It's basicly not worth it - my opinion.


Cause and effect is still valid untill someone cause something that doesn't have any effect. Or find the effect that did not have any known cause - like the Big Bang. Yes "known cause" - we just know there was a cause, but not what cause.


Well, godzillion doesn't seem to be a quantum in a scientific sense. Besides, nature doesn't do a lot of observable induction tests. However, an observation is no evidence.

I am now studying free energy concepts for like 20 years and what really puzzled me is the fact, that I never saw this particular concept in any plan. Not in Kelly's 1000 pg free energy plans collection and not in any other design, except maybe in 2 or 3 concepts that have claimed OU, which I mentioned in my 2016 paper or pdf on Reverse Lorentz Force, in the files section.

Additionally I realized that not only most hobbyists around here haven't yet understood the fundamental principles of induction, but also every Pro (eg. Masters degree in Electrotechnics) I ever tried to explain this particular concept. This led me to the conclusion that Science has become "Hear-say", a parrots field of expertise, rather than doing tests, observations by your own, leave alone to question or challenge any of the law-labeled observations.

Cause and effect, that's true, and I agree with anybody, saying we need energy to do work. But if there is any fluctuation in the forces we experience, we can easily attach a wheelwork to it. Just like in the cirquit of water on this planet, a heat cycle, driven by the energy of the universe with all it's motion and heat.
Please watch, think about and maybe comment my FEMM screenshots on Page 3 of this thread, thanks!


Offline Low-Q

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Re: Searching for Buddy in promising magnet motor Project.
« Reply #54 on: February 15, 2017, 10:10:08 PM »

Yes, I've watched it. When you say "Yes, attract the presumably escaping rotor, while in reality the rotor is getting closer.", then there must be the opposite when the rotor physically escapes. It is attracted on its way out too, so I assume that the forces (Actually torque, since this is a rotary system) involved in one complete cycle, is zero.


Still, you have some interesting thoughts, but I'm not 100% confident if this is going to work as intended.


There are many adopted opinions out there, you're right about that. Primarily people that does not do physical experiments, or have personal experience, but only listen to others what they have to say. I do a lot of physical experiments myself, but I must be relatively sure that the initial theory is worth putting into practice. However, sometimes the experiment does not fit the theory, and the theory must therefor be rejected. Practical experiments always win :-)


"But if there is any fluctuation in the forces we experience, we can easily attach a wheelwork to it"
Well, to be honest, I think that any fluctuations in the force field that might cause wheelwork for free, is an illusion. Because, if it was true, you have experienced a system that is actually picking up energy that initially did not had any cause. As far as I know from all my experiments, I have experienced that it's not possible.


The only way to prove or disprove an idea, is to leave the drawing board and start building.


Best of luck.


Vidar


@ Vidar



Well, godzillion doesn't seem to be a quantum in a scientific sense. Besides, nature doesn't do a lot of observable induction tests. However, an observation is no evidence.

I am now studying free energy concepts for like 20 years and what really puzzled me is the fact, that I never saw this particular concept in any plan. Not in Kelly's 1000 pg free energy plans collection and not in any other design, except maybe in 2 or 3 concepts that have claimed OU, which I mentioned in my 2016 paper or pdf on Reverse Lorentz Force, in the files section.

Additionally I realized that not only most hobbyists around here haven't yet understood the fundamental principles of induction, but also every Pro (eg. Masters degree in Electrotechnics) I ever tried to explain this particular concept. This led me to the conclusion that Science has become "Hear-say", a parrots field of expertise, rather than doing tests, observations by your own, leave alone to question or challenge any of the law-labeled observations.

Cause and effect, that's true, and I agree with anybody, saying we need energy to do work. But if there is any fluctuation in the forces we experience, we can easily attach a wheelwork to it. Just like in the cirquit of water on this planet, a heat cycle, driven by the energy of the universe with all it's motion and heat.
Please watch, think about and maybe comment my FEMM screenshots on Page 3 of this thread, thanks!

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Searching for Buddy in promising magnet motor Project.
« Reply #54 on: February 15, 2017, 10:10:08 PM »
Sponsored links:




Offline dieter

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Re: Searching for Buddy in promising magnet motor Project.
« Reply #55 on: February 15, 2017, 11:49:44 PM »
@ Vidar,


quote:
....[size=78%], then there must be the opposite when the rotor physically escapes. It is attracted on its way out too, so I assume that the forces (Actually torque, since this is a rotary system) involved in one complete cycle, is zero.[/size]
[size=78%]
[/size]
[size=78%]Well, here you're wrong. See, if the shield has passed by, the coils polarity flips and therefor repellse the shield, that is a pm to the coil side.[/size]
[size=78%]
[/size]
[size=78%]quote:[/size]
I think that any fluctuations in the force field that might cause wheelwork for free, is an illusion.


Again :) wrong and easily proofable: if I had a magnet that turns on and off, I had a motor, would you agree? Any fluctuation, such as on-off, could drive a motor. Of course there is no fluctuation in a PM. But if there was one.


quote:
The only way to prove or disprove an idea, is to leave the drawing board and start building.[/size]

[/size]
I' doing both simultanously anyway.[/size]

[/size]
Thanks for your opinion, btw.[/size]

Offline dieter

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Re: Searching for Buddy in promising magnet motor Project.
« Reply #56 on: February 15, 2017, 11:52:15 PM »
Man this forum has some issues with my Browser. I can't even go back and edit the posting, so, sorry for the tags mess.


Offline Low-Q

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Re: Searching for Buddy in promising magnet motor Project.
« Reply #57 on: February 16, 2017, 07:33:41 AM »
Man this forum has some issues with my Browser. I can't even go back and edit the posting, so, sorry for the tags mess.
Try Microsoft Edge or Google Chrome. For some reason I do not have the same problem with these browsers.
I run Windows 7 at work, and Windows 10 at home. No problem, but yes, sometimes the browser really mess up. The text format might also be an issue.
Pressing the little button above the text field "A↳a" after selecting all the text, might help.

Offline Low-Q

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Re: Searching for Buddy in promising magnet motor Project.
« Reply #58 on: February 16, 2017, 07:40:41 AM »

Thanks for clearing up :-)

@ Vidar,


quote:
...., then there must be the opposite when the rotor physically escapes. It is attracted on its way out too, so I assume that the forces (Actually torque, since this is a rotary system) involved in one complete cycle, is zero.

Well, here you're wrong. See, if the shield has passed by, the coils polarity flips and therefor repellse the shield, that is a pm to the coil side.

quote:
I think that any fluctuations in the force field that might cause wheelwork for free, is an illusion.


Again :) wrong and easily proofable: if I had a magnet that turns on and off, I had a motor, would you agree? Any fluctuation, such as on-off, could drive a motor. Of course there is no fluctuation in a PM. But if there was one.


quote:
The only way to prove or disprove an idea, is to leave the drawing board and start building.


I' doing both simultanously anyway.


Thanks for your opinion, btw.


Offline dieter

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Re: Searching for Buddy in promising magnet motor Project.
« Reply #59 on: February 17, 2017, 12:53:58 AM »
This whole, tempting idea (whether I'm the only one who gets it or not) does not let me go.


Again I went trough simulations. In this current, early attempt I achieve a fieldstrength drop of about 33%, or from 100% to 67%. Using a relatively thin iron core helps a lot to "beam over" almost the entire fieldstrength of the PM, despite the large airgap. By making the shield even broader this was further optimized, so currently I have about 0.6 Tesla in the iron core of the coil when shielded, and about 1 Tesla when unshielded.


Let us think trough this again: If we have our low-R coil without a load, it will be passive. Now if we let just a little bit of current flow, then the reactive field is not capable of fully stop (or compensate) the fieldstrength drop. This means as long as a fieldstrength drop (and rise, of course) is maintained, the flowing current is for free and there is also some torque added.


I must confess, it's getting a bit confusing with the recursive counterfx, but it seems logical to me, that you CAN have a limited amount of current flow in the coil while maintaining the desired inverted fieldstrength fluctuation.


Therefor this is my claim: Violation of the law of conservation of energy.


Unless there is energy in a PM, which by accepted belief is not.


Please don't hesitate to ask me if there is something unclear.


FEMM shots, using an iron core, or supermalloy.

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Re: Searching for Buddy in promising magnet motor Project.
« Reply #59 on: February 17, 2017, 12:53:58 AM »

 

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