Cookies-law

Cookies help us to bring you our services at overunity.com . If you use this website and our services you declare yourself okay with using cookies .More Infos here:
http://www.overunity.com/5553/privacy-policy/
If you do not agree with storing cookies, please leave this website now. Many thanks for your understanding.
Amazon Warehouse Deals ! Now even more Deep Discounts ! Check out these great prices on slightly used or just opened once only items.I always buy my gadgets via these great Warehouse deals ! Highly recommended ! Many thanks for supporting OverUnity.com this way.

User Menu

FireMatch

FireMatch

CCKnife

CCKnife

Poplamp

poplamp

CCTool

CCTool

LEDTVforSale

Magpi Magazine

Magpi Magazine Free Rasberry Pi Magazine

Battery Recondition

Battery Recondition

OverUnity Book

overunity principles book

Arduino

Ultracaps

YT Subscribe

movieclipsfree

movie clips free

Gravity Machines

Tesla-Ebook

Magnet Secrets

Lindemann Video

Navigation

Products

Statistics


  • *Total Posts: 485622
  • *Total Topics: 14276
  • *Online Today: 44
  • *Most Online: 103
(December 19, 2006, 11:27:19 PM)
  • *Users: 9
  • *Guests: 164
  • *Total: 173

Facebook

Author Topic: re: energy producing experiments  (Read 8761 times)

Offline Delburt Phend

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 40
Re: re: energy producing experiments
« Reply #60 on: March 04, 2017, 03:06:48 PM »
The energy of the two different mass objects is not the same; after an application of the same quantity of force for the same quantity of time. This deep space analogy is nearly identical to the tether of the cylinder and spheres. You should not expect equal changes in energy; you should expect equal changes in momentum on the two ends of the tether.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: re: energy producing experiments
« Reply #60 on: March 04, 2017, 03:06:48 PM »

Offline Low-Q

  • without_ads
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2379
Re: re: energy producing experiments
« Reply #61 on: March 04, 2017, 03:27:58 PM »

Energy of the system will be conserved no matter what, so does the momentum. Rethink your eksperiment, and figure out where the misconception is hiding.


Practical experiments are useless unless you do accurate measurements. I don't think you have done accurate measurements, but assume that your theory is legit. I have learned that if the practical experiment doesn't fit the theory, the theory is incorrect. Not the other way around.


Vidar





Offline Delburt Phend

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 40
Re: re: energy producing experiments
« Reply #62 on: March 04, 2017, 08:18:41 PM »
The cylinder and spheres with a mass ratio of 10 to 1 would require 12.6 frames to cross the 20 mm black square for energy conservation; but only 4 frames for Newtonian momentum conservation. I measure four frames to cross at the beginning and the end.

This four frames is the fastest the cylinder rotates. This entire experiment only takes 48 frames. It takes about 24 frames to go from 4 frames to cross the 20 mm black square to  the cylinder being stopped. It then it takes another 24 frames to restore maximum rotation of the cylinder. From the stop: it only takes about 8 frames for the cylinder to be rotating faster than 2 mm per frame (10 frames to cross the 20 mm black square). And then you still have 16 more frames to move past the 2 mm / frame speed. You have 16 more frames that are progressively moving faster and faster  past the maximum speed for energy conservation. The possibility of the cylinder rotating as slowly as required of energy conservation is zero. There is no way to mistake 4 frames to cross for 12.6 frames to cross.

You might consider that Newton is right. 

And no; Newtonian momentum and energy can not both be conserved; it is either 4 frames to cross or it is 12.6 frames to cross. This is 5 mm per frame or 1.6 mm per frame. 

Offline Low-Q

  • without_ads
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2379
Re: re: energy producing experiments
« Reply #63 on: March 10, 2017, 10:32:25 AM »
Whats frames are you talking about. Maybe I've missed out a video?


Vidar


Offline Delburt Phend

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 40
Re: re: energy producing experiments
« Reply #64 on: March 11, 2017, 10:25:45 PM »
My middle range high speed camcorder takes 240 frames per second. The software has an application that slows the video and then allows you to advance frame by frame. The videos have  to be slowed down and looked at frame by frame: because at normal speed you can't see any thing definitive.

The cylinder and spheres experiment that I am investigating at this time is the 10 (total) to 1 (spheres) mass ratio. I am varying the tether length: the last photo posted had a circumference length tether; the tether length I am using right now is a ½ circumference length.

The spheres and cylinder is released from the hand at about frame 1:03:166.

The black square on the cylinder crosses from side to side from frame 1:03:162 to 166. This is 4/240th  of a second.

Just before the cylinder hits the floor the black square on the cylinder crosses from side to side from frame 1:03:231 to 235.

The end rotational speed is the same as the initial rotational speed; and the spheres are up near the cylinder as in the start.

At 1:03:189 the cylinder makes its first stop. The cylinder stops it clockwise rotation and it is sent backward (counterclockwise). This is because the cylinder is stopped before the spheres reach 90° to tangent. The spheres reach 90° to tangent at about 1:03:202 At this point the counterclockwise rotation begins to slow and the cylinder stops again at 1:03:214. From frame 214 onward the cylinder is accelerating clockwise.

By frame 232 the cylinder is back up to its original rotational speed and it is moving in the same direction; clockwise. Even though the cylinder spent some time moving in the opposite direction the final speed is not altered.

NASA predicts that the spheres conserve energy: but this is impossible because they would only have 31.6 percent (½ * 10 kg * 1 m/sec *1  m/sec = ½ *1 kg * 3.16 m/sec * 3.16 m/sec ) of the momentum necessary to return all the motion back to the cylinder. When the spheres have all the motion they are actually moving 10 times as fast as at the original speed: because their momentum is sufficient to restore all the motion back to the cylinder.

If I reduce the tether length a little more the spheres will not stop the cylinder before 90° to tangent. There would be no backward motion.

When the correct tether length is selected the spheres will be at 90° to tangent just as the cylinder is stopped. There would be only one stop. I have done this a few time before: but it is still kind of fun. Back to the lab.

This is much like the video presented on page one. I don't make the slow motion videos myself; it is done by a friend. I don't want to make too many; he might get weary of me asking.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: re: energy producing experiments
« Reply #64 on: March 11, 2017, 10:25:45 PM »
Sponsored links:




Offline Delburt Phend

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 40
Re: re: energy producing experiments
« Reply #65 on: March 12, 2017, 03:16:38 AM »
A perfect stop (for the 10 to one mass ratio cylinder and spheres) appears to occur at a tether length of  about .834 diameters of the cylinder. The backward motion of the cylinder is gone; it now stops and precedes forward. It is still four frames to cross the black square at beginning and end.

The cylinder stop is also dead center of the complete experiment. The tether at 90° to tangent occurs about half way between the two four frames (start and finish) velocities.

Offline Delburt Phend

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 40
Re: re: energy producing experiments
« Reply #66 on: March 12, 2017, 03:58:20 AM »
Oops; I forgot to add the radius of the sphere (center of mass), which is 12.75 mm. That would make the tether length .978 diameters instead of .834.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: re: energy producing experiments
« Reply #66 on: March 12, 2017, 03:58:20 AM »
Sponsored links:




Offline Delburt Phend

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 40
Re: re: energy producing experiments
« Reply #67 on: March 14, 2017, 09:47:58 PM »
In one of the runs of the 10 to 1 cylinder and spheres it took four frames to cross the black square at the start and four frames to cross at the finish of the experiment. In the middle is a dead stop of the rotation of the cylinder.
 
Energy conservation predicts that at the end of the experiment it will take 12.6 frames to cross the black square. Because for energy conservation; when the spheres have all the motion, the spheres would have to be moving at the 'square root of ten' instead of ten times faster than the starting motion of the cylinder and spheres. Four frames time 3.16 is 12.6 frames.
 
Well I was curious: I found the middle frame, of the videoed experiment, where the cylinder is stopped. There are actually about five frames where the cylinder does not appear to move; but I picked the center of these five frames. From this middle frame I clicked off 12 more frames. By the end of the 12th frame one black square had been crossed from side to side. So, from the stop, the average velocity is at least 1 square per 12 frames. That makes the final velocity at least 2 squares per these 12 frames; final velocity is roughly double average velocity if you start from a stop.  This is twice as fast as predicted for energy conservation; and this is starting from a stop. These 12 frames start at the slowest portion of the experiment for the cylinder.

In the next twelve frames (that would be 13 -24 frames from the stop) there were 2.5 black squares crossed in 12 frames.  Now the average speed is 2.5 times faster than the max expected for energy conservation.
 
In a linear acceleration the final speed would be double the average speed of 2.5 squares; for 5 black squares per 12 frames (1.67 per 4 frames). The graph of this acceleration is not linear because it troughs out at 4 frames per crossing and there are several frames that have almost zero motion. The graph of this acceleration would probably be more like a section of a sine curve.

The point is that 12.6 frames to cross is way too slow to be the correct answer; and energy conservation is eliminated as a possibility. The direct measurement of four frames for momentum conservation fits perfectly.

This troughing out, or little velocity change for several frames on the graph, is logically expected. When the cylinder is stopped in this experiment and the tether is at 90° to tangent little (or no) rotational force can be applied by the tether.  And at the end of the experiment the spheres and cylinder are moving at the same speed; the spheres on the tangent tether are moving at the same speed as the rotation of the cylinder. Both these arrangement cause acceleration to cease.

Offline Delburt Phend

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 40
Re: re: energy producing experiments
« Reply #68 on: March 21, 2017, 01:35:08 AM »
I built 2 more cylinder and spheres machines; I converted the 10 units of total mass to one unit of sphere mass model. I made a 20 to one and a 30 to one by adding 1320 grams and then 1508  additional grams. The 1508 was stainless steel rods so they were left too massive.

I did a careful mass to diameter evaluation of the three cylinder and spheres models. The spheres are assumed to be point masses of 132 grams at a diameter of 114.3 mm; compared to the cylinder diameter of 88.9 mm; and so on for all the other mass. The greater diameter gives you greater speed; and four sets of mass are at different diameters.

So the 10 to one is actually a 9.78 to one.

And the 20 to one is actually a 19.33 to one.
 
And the 30 to one is actually a 32.87 to one.

I wanted to compare the tether length that causes a perfect stop of the cylinder at full extension; when the tether is at 90° to tangent.  I used the tether length that actually touches the cylinder.
 
I got 72.4 mm of tether for the 9.78 to one.

I got 146.4 mm of tether for the 19.33 to one.

I got 239.7 mm of tether for the 32.87 to one.

There appears to be a one to one relationship between the length of the tether and the mass the tether is able to stop.
 
I went back to the 4.5 to one total mass to sphere mass, cylinder and spheres, and shortened the length of the tether for a perfect stop; with this one to one relationship in mind. The 4.5 to one is actually 4.55: after the above diameter evaluation. So 72.4 mm tether length times 4.55/9.78 mass ratios would give you about 34 mm tether length.
 
I found that a tether length of 32.5 mm, for the portion of the tether that actually touches the cylinder, had a perfect stop at 90° to tangent.  This remains within the 5% error ranger.
 
This seems to confirm the one to one relationship between the tether length and the cylinder mass stopped; but lets put tether length in radial length of the cylinder.

A tether length of .731 radii stops 4.55 to one.   4.55/.366 = 6.22

A tether length of 1.629 radii stops 9.78 to one. 9.78/ 1.629 = 6.00

A tether length of 3.294 radii stops 19.33 to one.  19.33/3.294 = 5.87

A tether length of 5.39 radii stops 32.87 to one.   32.87/5.39 = 6.1

So if you want to have a perfect stop at 90° to tangent: for a cylinder that has a mass of 23 times that of the spheres you would use a tether length of about 4 radii. This is for any size cylinder. And the tether length is from the cylinder surface.

All lengths can restart the cylinder to the full initial speed.

Offline Delburt Phend

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 40
Re: re: energy producing experiments
« Reply #69 on: March 21, 2017, 09:28:46 AM »
Or is the relationship 2 * pi? And why?

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: re: energy producing experiments
« Reply #69 on: March 21, 2017, 09:28:46 AM »
Sponsored links:




Offline Delburt Phend

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 40
Re: re: energy producing experiments
« Reply #70 on: March 23, 2017, 02:46:23 AM »
I used a larger diameter (129 mm) cylinder and spheres that was a  16.36 to one mass ratio. I used the new formula for determining tether length. That is (mass ratio) / (2 * pi) * r = tether length for a perfect stop at 90° to tangent. 

That is 16.36 / 6.28 = 2.60 * 64.5 mm = 168 mm for tether length

By using this length of tether I got a perfect stop when the spheres are at 90° to tangent; first try. Awesome!

Offline Delburt Phend

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 40
Re: re: energy producing experiments
« Reply #71 on: March 25, 2017, 12:35:14 AM »
In these models: an additional tether length of 15.9% of a radius (of the cylinder) will stop an additional 132 grams of cylinder. It does not matter if the 15.9% is added to a 1 radius length tether; or if the 15.9% is added to a 6 radius tether length.

Each 1/6.28th of a radius tether length stops 132 grams in these models. This is 15.9% of a length of radius of the cylinder. Six radius lengths of tether stop 4973 grams; 6.159 radius lengths of tether stop (4973 +132) 5105 gram. One radius lengths of tether stops (1 r * 6.28 * 132g) 829 grams; 1.159 radius length of tether stop (829 +132) 961 gram.
 
NASA predicts that extra length added to a longer tether has a greater ability to stop larger quantities of mass: wiki “and their (sphere mass) effect grows as the square of the length of the cables.” But this is not true. The same added length of tether stops the same added mass no matter what the length of tether.
 
It should be noted that this is true of the restart as well. An additional tether length of 15.9% restarts another 132 grams. When the tether has twelve units of 15.9% of the radius it restarts a 1584 (12 * 132 g total mass) gram cylinder. The thirteenth unit of 15.9% of radius length, added to the tether, will restart an additional 132 grams.
 
For the 129 mm diameter model this 15.9% is 10.27 mm; for the 88.89 mm diameter model this 15.9% of the radius would be 7.08 mm.

The tether length to mass stopped (at 90° to tangent) is a linear relationship not a square relationship.


Offline telecom

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 380
Re: re: energy producing experiments
« Reply #72 on: March 25, 2017, 11:11:05 AM »
In these models: an additional tether length of 15.9% of a radius (of the cylinder) will stop an additional 132 grams of cylinder. It does not matter if the 15.9% is added to a 1 radius length tether; or if the 15.9% is added to a 6 radius tether length.

Each 1/6.28th of a radius tether length stops 132 grams in these models. This is 15.9% of a length of radius of the cylinder. Six radius lengths of tether stop 4973 grams; 6.159 radius lengths of tether stop (4973 +132) 5105 gram. One radius lengths of tether stops (1 r * 6.28 * 132g) 829 grams; 1.159 radius length of tether stop (829 +132) 961 gram.
 
NASA predicts that extra length added to a longer tether has a greater ability to stop larger quantities of mass: wiki “and their (sphere mass) effect grows as the square of the length of the cables.” But this is not true. The same added length of tether stops the same added mass no matter what the length of tether.
 
It should be noted that this is true of the restart as well. An additional tether length of 15.9% restarts another 132 grams. When the tether has twelve units of 15.9% of the radius it restarts a 1584 (12 * 132 g total mass) gram cylinder. The thirteenth unit of 15.9% of radius length, added to the tether, will restart an additional 132 grams.
 
For the 129 mm diameter model this 15.9% is 10.27 mm; for the 88.89 mm diameter model this 15.9% of the radius would be 7.08 mm.

The tether length to mass stopped (at 90° to tangent) is a linear relationship not a square relationship.

I think there are two types of action - when the force is momentary vs the force is
constant.
The work calculations are not applicable to the momentary force action,
but they are applicable to the constant force action.
But by sending the projectile up against the gravity with a momentary force,
it becomes possible to calculate work on the way down, when the gravity force is constant.

Offline Delburt Phend

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 40
Re: re: energy producing experiments
« Reply #73 on: March 25, 2017, 12:38:19 PM »
I thought I was loading a smaller picture; how do you get the big one back off?


Offline Delburt Phend

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 40
Re: re: energy producing experiments
« Reply #74 on: March 27, 2017, 10:59:12 PM »
I think you have the concept; but I prefer to look at it as a function of time; telecom.

A one kilogram missile moving 19.81m/sec will rise 20 meters.  From d = ½ v²/a. This will take 2.019 second.  From d = ½ at².

A kilogram mass applies 9.81 newtons of force. This is 9.81 newton applied for  2.019275 seconds.  = 19.81 N seconds; N*s

Form a chain of twenty one kilogram masses; they are one meter apart, 20 meters high. This vertical chain could be dropped one meter. The original configuration can be restored if only one kilogram is raised 20 meters. 

Connect this 20 kilogram chain to a 80 kilogram flywheel. It will take 1.009637 seconds for the chain to drop one meter while it spins the wheel. But this is 20 kilograms dropping one meter for (20 kg * 9.81 N/kg)  196.2 N applied for 1.009637 seconds for 198.09 N seconds.

The output momentum is ten times that of the input momentum.

The output momentum is 100 kilograms moving 1.9809 m/sec for 198.09 kg*m/sec.

The input momentum was 1 kg moving 19.81 m/sec for 19.81 kg*m/sec.

The input energy is 196.2 joules.

The output energy is 19,620 joules.

In the 20 kilogram; twenty meter; vertical chain arrangement one kilogram applies its 9.81 newtons for 1.0096 seconds 20 times before it needs to be returned to its original vertical position at the top of the chain. The other 19 kilograms in the chain always assist in the application of force but each one kilogram applies its 9.81 N for 1.0096 seconds 20 times. 

The descending mass is 9.81 N applied for 20.19274 seconds. This is 198.09 Ns. 
 
The ascending mass is only 9.81 N applied for 2.0193 second for 19.809 Ns.

This time difference multiplies the momentum by 10 times and the energy by 100 times.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: re: energy producing experiments
« Reply #74 on: March 27, 2017, 10:59:12 PM »

 

Share this topic to your favourite Social and Bookmark site

Please SHARE this topic at: