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Author Topic: re: energy producing experiments  (Read 6809 times)

Offline Low-Q

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Re: re: energy producing experiments
« Reply #30 on: February 16, 2017, 09:52:07 PM »

https://youtu.be/YaUmzekdxTQ

This experiment produces energy
Any given effect has a bad tendency to be a result of the cause. In other words, it is very hard, if not impossible, to achieve an effect that does not have any connection to the cause. If it wasn't your calculator would be useless. 1-1=0 no matter how hard you try to change the result.
The cause is your hand, the effect is two balls having fun around a PVC tube. The mechanical movement is a direct cause of the energy you supply by your hand.


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Re: re: energy producing experiments
« Reply #30 on: February 16, 2017, 09:52:07 PM »

Offline Delburt Phend

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Re: re: energy producing experiments
« Reply #31 on: February 17, 2017, 12:41:53 AM »
When a force causes a mass to move in a particular direction that is the positive direction for that mass. It does not matter what the actual direction is (N, S, E, W, up, down, left, right). When the same force causes a different mass to move in a different direction that direction is still the positive direct for that mass. And the momentums of the two masses are added.
 
Proof: An Atwood’s machine is used to prove F = ma. A little over half of the motion in an Atwood’s is going down and a little less than halve is going up; but the two momentums are added.
 
So you are not going to make vector mistakes again are you. When one force causes different masses to move in different directions all the directions are positive and the momentums are added together.
 
A 97.63 kilogram Atwood’s with 25 extra kilograms (122.63 total mass) on one side will accelerate to 2 meter per second velocity after the 25 kilograms has dropped 1 meter. This drop will take one second. With 9.81 newtons per kilogram for 25 kilograms applied for one second; this is 245.25 newton seconds.
 
After this Atwood’s is in motion it can apply 245.25 newtons for one second.
 
When 9.81 newtons is applied to this Atwood’s it will take 25 seconds to make the Atwood’s stop.
 
When 9.81 newtons is applied to a one kilogram mass for 25 seconds it will be moving 245.25 m/sec.
 
A one kilogram mass moving 245.25 m/sec will rise for 25 second. And it will rise 3065.625 meters.
 
This is 3065.625 m * 9.81 newtons/ kg * 1 kg = 30,073.78 joules of energy.
 
Twenty five kilograms dropped one meter is 25 kg  * 9.81 N/kg * 1 m = 245.25 joules
 
So with 245.25 joule you can make 30,073.78 joules.

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Offline Delburt Phend

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Re: re: energy producing experiments
« Reply #32 on: February 17, 2017, 02:08:46 AM »

Offline sm0ky2

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Re: re: energy producing experiments
« Reply #33 on: February 17, 2017, 04:51:27 AM »
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aa-YoJjIPAo


Excellent!


Now comes the important part


E = (m2-m1)gh
Where h is the distance downward the large mass moves
during the experiment.


You see that energy is conserved


Offline Delburt Phend

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Re: re: energy producing experiments
« Reply #34 on: February 17, 2017, 09:02:51 PM »
That is correct: the total mass of the Atwood’s in the video is 40 kg and the accelerating mass is 20 kilograms. The 20 kg in the balanced portion of the Atwood’s is not dropped; only the extra 20 kg is lowered.
 
Twenty kilograms at a height of one meter has a potential energy of (1 m * 20 kg * 9.81 N/kg) 196.2 joules.
 
Twenty kilograms dropped one meter in free fall has a velocity of 4.429 m/sec for an energy of (1/2 * 20 kg * 4.429 m/sec * 4.429 m/sec) = 196.2 joules.
 
The 20 kg /40 kg Atwood’s has a final velocity of 3.132 m/sec after the 20 kg drops 1 m; this is (1/2 * 40 kg * 3.132²) = 196.2 joules.
 
A twenty meter long string that has one kilogram at each one meter length has 196.2 joules of energy after it is dropped one meter.
 
A twenty meter long string that has one kilogram at each one meter length has 196.2 joules of potential energy when it is raised one meter.
 
A one kilogram mass dropped 20 meters has a final velocity of 19.81 m/sec for 196.2 joules of energy.
 
So: 196.2 joules for everything; so far.
 
The 20 kg /40 kg Atwood’s has a final velocity of 3.132 m/sec after a drop of 1 m; this is (40 kg *3.132 m/sec) = 125.28 units of momentum.
 
As proven by the double stopping cylinder and spheres you can place all of that momentum into one kilogram.
 
For one kilogram to have 125.28 units of momentum it must be moving 125.28 m/sec.
 
One kilogram moving 125.28 m/sec will rise (1/2 *125.28² / 9.81 m/sec) = 800 meters.
 
The potential energy of 1 kg at a height of 800 meters is (800 m * 9.81 N/kg * 1 kg) = 7848 joules of energy.
 
A 7848 J / 196.2 J = 4000% increase over the original energy.
 
Please note that there is no mention of radius.  Which eliminates what?
 
It is also important to note that all the 196.2 joules listed are from an original production of motion; they are not transfers of previously existing motion.
 
If the one kilogram moving 19.81 m/sec were to transfer its motion to the Atwood’s at rest it would only be moving .48317 m/sec for only 4.786 joules of energy not 196.2 J. 
 
If the 20 kg moving 4.429 m/sec were to join its motion to the Atwood’s at rest it would have (20 * 4.429 = 60 * X) = 1.4765 m/sec for 59.1 joules of energy not 196.2.
 
Momentum is always conserved in the transfer of motion from one objects to another not energy. And radius is never mentioned; so what kind of momentum is it?

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Re: re: energy producing experiments
« Reply #34 on: February 17, 2017, 09:02:51 PM »
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Offline sm0ky2

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Re: re: energy producing experiments
« Reply #35 on: February 19, 2017, 07:48:18 AM »
Imaginary momentum, represented by a j


The momentum of the Atwood is not 40kg moving down
It is the difference between the two masses.
They each move a momentum in opposite directions
Smaller mass moving up
Larger mass moving down
Gravity accelerates both downward
The net acceleration is on the difference
The momentum is also the difference as both masses are joined
via the string
They subtract from each other because the mass is balanced out
How much does a kid weigh on a teeter totter?
Why can they jump so high?


I admire your enthusiasm, but you have to understand what is being
conserved.
all the momentum is there, it is just not all in the same direction

Offline sm0ky2

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Re: re: energy producing experiments
« Reply #36 on: February 19, 2017, 07:52:27 AM »
What is the momentum of two cars tied to a chain
Driving away from each other?

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Re: re: energy producing experiments
« Reply #36 on: February 19, 2017, 07:52:27 AM »
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Offline Delburt Phend

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Re: re: energy producing experiments
« Reply #37 on: February 20, 2017, 10:32:29 PM »
With an acceleration rate of 4.905 m/sec/sec it will take the 20 kilograms .63855 seconds (d = 1/2at²) to accelerate down one meter.

The other twenty kilograms is balanced and its center of mass does not rise or lower.  

Twenty kilograms exerts a force of 196.2 newtons. So 196.2 newton applied for .63855 seconds is 125.28 units of momentum.

The final velocity is 3.132 meters per second.

A newton * second = kg * m/sec.

Ten kilogram moving up at 3.132 m/sec is 31.32 units of momentum:

10 kilograms moving down at 3.132 m/sec is 31.32 units of momentum:

Twenty kilograms moving down at 3.132 m/sec is 62.64 units of momentum.

 And 62.64 + 31.32 + 31.32 = 125.28. The momentums are added in Newtonian Physics.

The fact is that Newtonian Physics works for every type of motion in the lab; but not everyone will properly use it.

One thing that helps verify that the starting rotational momentum in the double stop cylinder and spheres   https://youtu.be/YaUmzekdxTQ   experiment is that four frame per second is what you get in all the throws all the time. Of all the throws I have done I don't remember any faster than 3.5 frames to cross the 20 mm black square. And I do not remember any slower than 5 frames to cross the black square. It seems like the wrist is fairly consistent in producing a relatively slow spin. And I have done hundreds of spins.

Massive quantities of energy are observed when the ballistic pendulum is taken as a proof of Newtonian momentum conservation; and when Newtonian math is used appropriately. 

Offline Low-Q

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Re: re: energy producing experiments
« Reply #38 on: February 22, 2017, 12:22:51 AM »

Excellent!


Now comes the important part


E = (m2-m1)gh
Where h is the distance downward the large mass moves
during the experiment.


You see that energy is conserved
Totally agree sm0ky2. This topic, as "all" other topics, there are a confusion between force and energy. Energy is what we want at the end of the road. Forces tells nothing about the energy unless we apply displacement.
Energy is conserved even if it doesn't look like it when the experiment is only dealing with forces alone.
I can lift a bulldozer with my finger if I use enough pulleys to do it, but I need to displace hundreds of meters of rope with my finger to lift the dozer a few centimeters. 10 000 kg displaced 1cm require the same energy as displacing 1 kg 100 meters.


The confusion about forces and energy is the one and only reason why all gravity- or permanent magnet over unity experiments fail.
Conservation of energy is always the partykiller - not the naysayers ;-)


Vidar

Offline Delburt Phend

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Re: re: energy producing experiments
« Reply #39 on: February 22, 2017, 03:25:07 AM »
If you apply 10 newtons for one second to a mass of 10 kilograms you get 5 joules of energy.  (½ mv²)

If you apply 10 newtons for one second to a mass of 1 kilograms you get 50 joules of energy.

If you transfer all the motion of 10 kilograms moving 1 m/sec to one kilogram; the energy changes from 5 J to 50 J.

This is exactly what happen in the video; The motion of a massive object is given to a small object and the small object gives the motion all back; twice. The same quantity of motion is contained in the small object as is contained in the large object.

The small object with the same quantity of motion contains significantly more energy.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: re: energy producing experiments
« Reply #39 on: February 22, 2017, 03:25:07 AM »
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Offline Low-Q

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Re: re: energy producing experiments
« Reply #40 on: February 22, 2017, 07:24:18 AM »
If you apply 10 newtons for one second to a mass of 10 kilograms you get 5 joules of energy.  (½ mv²)

If you apply 10 newtons for one second to a mass of 1 kilograms you get 50 joules of energy.

If you transfer all the motion of 10 kilograms moving 1 m/sec to one kilogram; the energy changes from 5 J to 50 J.

This is exactly what happen in the video; The motion of a massive object is given to a small object and the small object gives the motion all back; twice. The same quantity of motion is contained in the small object as is contained in the large object.

The small object with the same quantity of motion contains significantly more energy.
I can clearly see the confusion here. Your equation of kinetic energy is correct, but I think you have missed something out. Energy IS ALWAYS conserved, so there MUST be a misconception somewhere. I can't point it out for you, but I strongly believe you've missed something out.
I'll digg into my old papers, and maybe I find something that explains it all.




Offline Low-Q

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Re: re: energy producing experiments
« Reply #41 on: February 22, 2017, 08:18:35 AM »
Now I think I got it.
If you use the 10kg mass to transfer energy into the 1kg mass, the heaviest weight does not loose ALL its kinetic energy, but only some is transfered to the lightest weight.


If you have two steel spheres in space. One small and one large that has 10 times more volume.
If the small sphere is stationary, and you take the large sphere and push it with 1m/s head on to the small sphere. What happens in the collision?
Does the large sphere stop completely, and the small sphere shoots away in 10m/s? That is what your idea suggests.


Vidar


Offline Delburt Phend

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Re: re: energy producing experiments
« Reply #42 on: February 22, 2017, 11:23:03 PM »
That is absolutely correct Q; that is absolutely what happens.

But instead of using one ten kilogram sphere you use two five kilogram spheres at 180° on a light rim. Wrap a string around the rim from each of the 5 kilogram spheres; place one kilogram on the ends of the two equal length strings. We now have 12 kilogram on a very light rim.  Spin the rim at one meter per second; and release the two one kilogram masses. When released the two one kilograms spheres will unwrap and the two five kilogram spheres will be quickly stopped. The two kilograms will have all the motion that previously existed in the 12 kilograms. They will have 12 units of momentum; because the 12 kilograms had 12 units of momentum. The two spheres will be moving 6 m/sec; for an energy increase of 600%

The video proves that this is what happens; because the spheres restore all the motion back to the cylinder twice. And the cylinder had been stopped twice. only Newtonian momentum can do this.

I could have stayed with 10 kilograms by using two 4 kilogram masses at 180°.

But instead of using one ten kilogram sphere you use two four kilogram spheres at 180° on a light rim. Wrap a string around the rim from each of the 4 kilogram spheres; place one kilogram on the ends of the two equal length strings. We now have 10 kilogram on a very light rim.  Spin the rim at one meter per second; and release the two one kilogram masses. When released the two one kilograms spheres will unwrap and the two four kilogram spheres will be quickly stopped. The two kilograms will have all the motion that previously existed in the 10 kilograms. They will have 10 units of momentum; because the 10 kilograms had 10 units of momentum. The two spheres will be moving 5 m/sec; for an energy increase of 500%

Offline Low-Q

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Re: re: energy producing experiments
« Reply #43 on: February 22, 2017, 11:53:22 PM »
I think you're ready to build a device that is possible to measure all events. Because the example of the balls in space (space balls haha) isn't correct. The large ball will not stop completely, but if it did, the small ball would bounce away with approx 3,162277m/s - not 10m/s.
3,162277 happens to be the square root of 10 - square root of the relationship between the two weights of respectively 1kg and 10kg. The formula for kinetic energy is a quadratic equation (or do you say "second degree equation"?), remember?

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Offline telecom

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Re: re: energy producing experiments
« Reply #44 on: February 23, 2017, 02:56:32 AM »


If you have two steel spheres in space. One small and one large that has 10 times more volume.
If the small sphere is stationary, and you take the large sphere and push it with 1m/s head on to the small sphere. What happens in the collision?
Does the large sphere stop completely, and the small sphere shoots away in 10m/s? That is what your idea suggests.


Vidar

DP makes an arrangement where he ensures transfer of all the momentum when
string unwraps.
In your case, when 2 bodies hit each other, it doesn't happen.

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Re: re: energy producing experiments
« Reply #44 on: February 23, 2017, 02:56:32 AM »

 

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