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Author Topic: re: energy producing experiments  (Read 9582 times)

Offline Delburt Phend

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Re: re: energy producing experiments
« Reply #45 on: February 23, 2017, 03:13:45 AM »
The Dawn Mission is closer to 400 kilogram to one kilogram of spheres; but we know that the small spheres stop the rotation the satellite. We also know from the double stop video; that those small spheres can fully restart the rotation of the satellite. That means that the small spheres in the Dawn mission yo-yo despin device have all the Newtonian momentum that was contained in the spin of the satellite. The spheres are moving 400 m/sec (if the spin was 1 m/sec); check the energy increase.

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Re: re: energy producing experiments
« Reply #45 on: February 23, 2017, 03:13:45 AM »

Offline Low-Q

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Re: re: energy producing experiments
« Reply #46 on: February 24, 2017, 09:37:28 PM »

The Dawn Mission is closer to 400 kilogram to one kilogram of spheres; but we know that the small spheres stop the rotation the satellite. We also know from the double stop video; that those small spheres can fully restart the rotation of the satellite. That means that the small spheres in the Dawn mission yo-yo despin device have all the Newtonian momentum that was contained in the spin of the satellite. The spheres are moving 400 m/sec (if the spin was 1 m/sec); check the energy increase.
There is no energy increase. You must go through your calculations again.
The velocity of the small balls is not multiplied with the relationship between the large and small ball, but multiplied with the square root of this relationship. 10kg ball at 1m/s use all its kinetic energy to accelerate a 1kg ball at 3.162277m/s (Not 10m/s as you suggest). Energy is conserved, and no gain is achieved. Sorry mate.


Vidar

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Offline telecom

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Re: re: energy producing experiments
« Reply #47 on: February 24, 2017, 11:03:52 PM »
There is no energy increase. You must go through your calculations again.
The velocity of the small balls is not multiplied with the relationship between the large and small ball, but multiplied with the square root of this relationship. 10kg ball at 1m/s use all its kinetic energy to accelerate a 1kg ball at 3.162277m/s (Not 10m/s as you suggest). Energy is conserved, and no gain is achieved. Sorry mate.


Vidar

Sir Isaac was saying that the momentum is conserved, not  energy.
Consevation of the momentum is derived from the 3rd law of Newton.

Offline Delburt Phend

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Re: re: energy producing experiments
« Reply #48 on: February 25, 2017, 04:21:40 AM »
I just video taped another cylinder and spheres arrangement.

When spun and released the system (cylinder and spheres) took four frames (4/240th sec) for the black square to move from one side to the other side.

The spheres quickly stopped the cylinder and then continued to unwrap. The spheres soon had the cylinder back up to full rational speed. It again took four frames for the black square to cross from side to side.

The mass of the cylinder is 972 grams: the mass of the spheres is 132 grams; for a total mass of 1104 grams.

The cylinder's rotation speed is 1.2 m/sec (from the four frames). 

This means that when the spheres contain all of the Newtonian momentum (and the cylinder is stopped) they must be moving 8.36 times (1104 g / 132 g) faster that the original speed = 10.03 m/sec.

Your calculation say the spheres are moving 2.89 times faster than the original speed; 3.47 m/sec; when the cylinder is stopped.

Your calculations say that 65% of the Newtonian momentum is missing when the smaller mass spheres restore the motion back to the cylinder. Ballistic pendulums prove that only Newtonian momentum can be given from small objects to larger objects. So your calculations show that the spheres do not have enough momentum to return the motion to the cylinder.

The motion of the cylinder is completely restored; so your hypothesis is false.

The energy increase is 836%


Offline sm0ky2

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Re: re: energy producing experiments
« Reply #49 on: February 25, 2017, 04:48:57 AM »
Great! Now just connect this up to a generator


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Re: re: energy producing experiments
« Reply #49 on: February 25, 2017, 04:48:57 AM »
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Offline Delburt Phend

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Re: re: energy producing experiments
« Reply #50 on: February 26, 2017, 01:48:27 AM »
I added 216 grams to the 972 gram cylinder: so now the cylinder has a mass of 1188 grams. The two spheres have a total mass of 132 grams. This makes the total system mass of 1320 grams. So the spheres are about 1/10th of the total mass.

Now we have the 10 to one ratio mentioned by Q. And lets start with one meter per second arc velocity just before the released of the cylinder and spheres.

Upon release: the spheres soon have the cylinder stopped; and then soon after the stop the spheres have the cylinder fully restarted. This is four frames at the start and four frame at the finish; as stated many times (1.2 m/sec). But lets stay with 1 m/sec just to simplify the math.

If energy is conserved when the spheres have all the motion then they are only moving 3.16 m/sec; if Newtonian momentum is conserved then the spheres will have to be moving 10 m/sec.

Now if energy is conserved there is only 31.6% of the Newtonian momentum remaining for the return of all the motion back to the cylinder. Collisions prove that only Newtonian momentum is conserved when small masses share their motion with larger masses.

This cylinder and spheres returns all the motion to the cylinders; just like all the scores of other cylinder and spheres do. This is a 10 to one mass ratio and I think I will stay with this model for a while.

Telecom; you are correct about Newton and his third Law. The force in the tether is equal to itself and the force is in both directions. So the momentum lost by the cylinder is gained by the spheres. And then when the spheres share the momentum back with the cylinder they have the adequate amount. The spheres can't be short (only 31.6%) of motion because all of the motion is restored back to the cylinder.

In this cylinder and spheres: 90% of the original motion belongs to the cylinder; because it has the same speed and 9 times the mass. For simplicity I let the speed be 1 m/sec around the arc of the circle.

If energy were to be conserved as suggested then 90% of the motion becomes 21.6% of the motion. This is because the spheres start with 10% of the motion; and only 21.6%  is needed to achieve 31.6%.  If the spheres have only 31.6% of the motion, when the cylinder is stopped, then 90% has become 21.6%. Confusing math to say the least. Nine units of motion are lost by the cylinder and only 2.16 units of motion are gained by the spheres.

F = ma on the other hand is most precise math. With F = ma 9 units of mass decelerates  from 1 m/sec to zero; while 1 unit of mass accelerates from 1 m/sec to 10 m/sec.  This is an equal quantity of momentum change on both ends of the tether; Newton's third Law.

There is not any experimental evidence for dropping Newtonian physic; but the abolition of Newton has certainly occurred.

Offline Low-Q

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Re: re: energy producing experiments
« Reply #51 on: February 27, 2017, 02:16:29 PM »
OK. Do a simple experiment. The earth and a 2 gram steel ball.
Drop the steel ball to a hard surface and see what happens. The earth is much heavier than the steel ball, but momentum is still valid and conserved. If your theory is correct, the steel ball will bounce off the surface in a velocity greater than the speed of light.
If it does, you have a problem :-)


Vidar

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Re: re: energy producing experiments
« Reply #51 on: February 27, 2017, 02:16:29 PM »
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Offline Delburt Phend

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Re: re: energy producing experiments
« Reply #52 on: February 27, 2017, 10:36:08 PM »
This is the cylinder and spheres with a total mass of 1320g; and the spheres have a mass of 132g.

In the photo the cylinder is stopped and the spheres contain all the motion.

About a 1/12th of a second prior to the photo the motion was shared between the spheres and the cylinder. (four frames to cross 20 mm)

About a 1/12th of a second after the photo the rotational motion of the cylinder will be completely restored. (four frames to cross 20 mm)

If the spheres had conserved energy when they had all the motion it would take 12.65 frames to cross the 20 mm after the motion is restored to the cylinder.

The photo is at the high point of the energy;1000% of the original energy.


Offline telecom

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Re: re: energy producing experiments
« Reply #53 on: February 28, 2017, 12:00:18 AM »
OK. Do a simple experiment. The earth and a 2 gram steel ball.
Drop the steel ball to a hard surface and see what happens. The earth is much heavier than the steel ball, but momentum is still valid and conserved. If your theory is correct, the steel ball will bounce off the surface in a velocity greater than the speed of light.
If it does, you have a problem :-)


Vidar
Vector of speed of the earth is 0 in the direction of the momentum of the ball.

Offline Delburt Phend

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Re: re: energy producing experiments
« Reply #54 on: February 28, 2017, 01:53:42 AM »
Correct telecom; the only momentum in Q's system is from the 2 grams. In relationship to the 2 grams the earth is at rest. The spinning motion of the cylinder is transferred to the spheres and then back again; but the earth does not do that.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: re: energy producing experiments
« Reply #54 on: February 28, 2017, 01:53:42 AM »
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Offline Delburt Phend

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Re: re: energy producing experiments
« Reply #55 on: February 28, 2017, 02:47:33 AM »
Oops; I was thinking of the ball being thrown; but Q said dropped. That means that the ball accelerates toward the earth and the earth accelerates toward the ball. They have equal and opposite momentum.

The earth's momentum can not be measured but we have to assume that it bounces back away from the point of collision just like the 2 gram ball. The ball keeps its momentum and the earth keeps its momentum. There is no momentum transfer.  The only noticeable motion will be that of the ball.

Offline Low-Q

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Re: re: energy producing experiments
« Reply #56 on: February 28, 2017, 04:03:11 PM »
Oops; I was thinking of the ball being thrown; but Q said dropped. That means that the ball accelerates toward the earth and the earth accelerates toward the ball. They have equal and opposite momentum.

The earth's momentum can not be measured but we have to assume that it bounces back away from the point of collision just like the 2 gram ball. The ball keeps its momentum and the earth keeps its momentum. There is no momentum transfer.  The only noticeable motion will be that of the ball.
It does not matter if the ball or the earth is in motion. The end result is a total momentum that is conserved. Would it make any difference if you throw the ball into earth, or even throw the ball into a vertical wall that is fixed to the earth, or use a large crane to move a 10000 kg concrete block towards a stationary 2 grams steel ball? Would the steel ball fly away as a projectile? Nope!
If I understood you correctly, you assume that the earth must have motion and hit a stationary small ball, and not the other way around. If so, your assumption is not correct. The energy and momentum is conserved in any case.


and it does not matter if you throw or drop the ball. The ball gains momentum as it accelerate towards the earth, and the earth gains the very same momentum as it accelerate towards the ball. The earths acceleration is however very tiny, but it's there.


Vidar


Offline telecom

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Re: re: energy producing experiments
« Reply #57 on: February 28, 2017, 05:02:01 PM »
It does not matter if the ball or the earth is in motion. The end result is a total momentum that is conserved. Would it make any difference if you throw the ball into earth, or even throw the ball into a vertical wall that is fixed to the earth, or use a large crane to move a 10000 kg concrete block towards a stationary 2 grams steel ball? Would the steel ball fly away as a projectile? Nope!
If I understood you correctly, you assume that the earth must have motion and hit a stationary small ball, and not the other way around. If so, your assumption is not correct. The energy and momentum is conserved in any case.


and it does not matter if you throw or drop the ball. The ball gains momentum as it accelerate towards the earth, and the earth gains the very same momentum as it accelerate towards the ball. The earths acceleration is however very tiny, but it's there.


Vidar
The earth doesn't haver any momentum because its linear speed equals 0.
The momentum of the ball is conserved, this is why it reflects back with the same momentum it had before the impact less losses.

Offline Delburt Phend

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Re: re: energy producing experiments
« Reply #58 on: March 01, 2017, 01:07:17 AM »
Place two masses in deep space, the only gravitational attraction is from each other.

One of the masses is ten kilograms and the other is one kilogram.

From Newton's Third Law we know that the mutual attraction is equal in both directions.

From F = ma we know that the acceleration of the one kilogram will be ten times greater than the acceleration of the 10 kilograms.

After a period of time the one kilogram will be moving 10 times faster than the 10 kilograms. When the one kilogram is moving one meter per second the 10 kilograms will be moving .1m/sec.

Then ½ *10kg *.1 m/sec * .1 m/sec = .05 joules

And ½ * 1 kg * 1 m/sec* 1 m/sec = .5 joules

Energy is not conserved. 

If the 2 gram ball had another source for it's velocity the acceleration of the two spheres would not be interdependent and therefor they would not have equal momentum.


Offline Low-Q

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Re: re: energy producing experiments
« Reply #59 on: March 03, 2017, 10:50:06 AM »
Place two masses in deep space, the only gravitational attraction is from each other.

One of the masses is ten kilograms and the other is one kilogram.

From Newton's Third Law we know that the mutual attraction is equal in both directions.

From F = ma we know that the acceleration of the one kilogram will be ten times greater than the acceleration of the 10 kilograms.

After a period of time the one kilogram will be moving 10 times faster than the 10 kilograms. When the one kilogram is moving one meter per second the 10 kilograms will be moving .1m/sec.

Then ½ *10kg *.1 m/sec * .1 m/sec = .05 joules

And ½ * 1 kg * 1 m/sec* 1 m/sec = .5 joules

Energy is not conserved. 

If the 2 gram ball had another source for it's velocity the acceleration of the two spheres would not be interdependent and therefor they would not have equal momentum.
Energy conservation does not mean that the two balls must have the same energy. "Conservation" of some quantity in Physics means that the value of the quantity at some time t1 is the same as the value as another time, t2. If you calculate the total energy of the system when it starts moving and at a later time, they will have the same energy. You need to consider potential energy of the system and the sum of the kinetic energies to get the total mechanical energy.

Vidar

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: re: energy producing experiments
« Reply #59 on: March 03, 2017, 10:50:06 AM »

 

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