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Author Topic: re: energy producing experiments  (Read 12306 times)

Offline Delburt Phend

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re: energy producing experiments
« on: February 04, 2017, 03:31:19 PM »
https://youtu.be/YaUmzekdxTQ

This experiment produces energy

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re: energy producing experiments
« on: February 04, 2017, 03:31:19 PM »

Offline Delburt Phend

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Re: re: energy producing experiments
« Reply #1 on: February 06, 2017, 11:52:20 PM »
This experiment is a yo-yo despin experiment; except that in this experiment the tethers are left attached and the masses on the end of the strings return all the motion back to the cylinder.

If the Dawn Mission satellite would have left the tethers attached; it too would have had the spheres return all the spinning motion back to the satellite. A roughly similar spinning mass ratio to that of the Dawn Mission would be a one meter diameter 400 kilogram cylinder spinning at 1 m/sec around the arc of the circle; and this would be attached to two .5 kilogram spheres on the end of the two tethers. This would be a 400 to one; cylinder to spheres, mass ratio.

Spinning at one meter per second the 400 kg cylinder would have 400 units of momentum. The spheres will have to have 400 units of momentum to return all that momentum back to the cylinder.

The 1 kilograms of spheres will have to be moving 400 m/sec to have 400 units of momentum. At 400 m/sec the spheres will have 80,000 joules of energy.

The original energy of the 400 kilogram cylinder moving one meter per second was 200 joules.

The experiment in the video proves that the spheres will return all the motion back to the cylinder.   

The mass ratio in the videoed experiment is only 4.5 to one. Because of this smaller mass ratio the spheres actually stop the cylinder twice; and they restart it twice. The original arc velocity is 1.2 m/sec

At the first stop of the cylinder in the video: the arc velocity (of the spheres) required for momentum conservation would be 1.2 m/sec *4.5 =  5.4 m/sec. This is the momentum (sphere mass * 5.4 m/sec) required to restore all of the motion back to the cylinder: and only momentum is transferred from small to large.

The arc velocity (of the spheres) required for energy conservation would be only 2.54 m/sec; this is only 47% of the need motion to restore the momentum back to the cylinder; for only momentum can be transferred from the small spheres back to the larger mass cylinder. For energy conservation; there would be only 22% of the motion needed to restart the cylinder after the second stop.


Offline sm0ky2

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Re: re: energy producing experiments
« Reply #2 on: February 08, 2017, 07:01:30 AM »
It seems that your calculations were performed using the
Initial velocity and the final radius of the arc
This is not accurate.
The angular velocity drops as you move to a larger radius.


Do you have a way to accurately measure the velocity of the balls?
Or the impact force when they hit the pipe?


Also the input energy ( your hand twisting is hard to measure)


Offline sm0ky2

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Re: re: energy producing experiments
« Reply #3 on: February 08, 2017, 07:05:51 AM »
All of your motion cannot be restored to the cylinder.
Most of the energy is in the collision, which approaches
a radial vector, towards the axis. Which actually jolts it
Sideways. Some of this is lost due to the vector the
cylinder is already traveling in. The rest, that does not
translate into linear horizontal motion, is converted to
heat at the surfaces of the ball and the pvc.


Offline Delburt Phend

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Re: re: energy producing experiments
« Reply #4 on: February 08, 2017, 09:21:23 PM »
Actually the initial motions is not hard to evaluate.

There is a frame by frame mode in my computer that subdivides the motion into 240th of a second.

It takes four frames for the cylinder to cross the distance of the black square; at the beginning; in the middle ; and again at the end. At these three points of highest cylinder rotation; the system is moving 20 mm *240/4  = 1.2 m/sec.

The momentum is the same at these three moments in time.

Only linear Newtonian momentum is conserved when a small object (spheres) give their motion to a large object (cylinder and spheres). This law is true even if the objects are in arc motion. There is no loss of motion; and no need to attribute any loss of motion to heat.

There is however a 450% increase in energy when the spheres have all the motion; for they must be moving 5.4 m/sec. To return (.594 kg  *1.2 m/sec ) .7128 units of momentum the spheres must be moving 5.4 m/sec (.132 kg * 5.4 m/sec).   

The spheres do not collide with the cylinder. The spheres come very near the surface of the cylinder but they do not collide.

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Re: re: energy producing experiments
« Reply #4 on: February 08, 2017, 09:21:23 PM »
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Offline sm0ky2

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Re: re: energy producing experiments
« Reply #5 on: February 09, 2017, 04:59:38 AM »
Then what is that loud kerklunk as each of the balls
Smack the side of the pvc in your video?

Offline sm0ky2

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Re: re: energy producing experiments
« Reply #6 on: February 09, 2017, 05:22:16 AM »
The string gets shorter and shorter as the ball approaches
Ultimately the arc formed by the string becomes smaller than
the arc of the cylinder. Follow the final trajectory when r=0
And you can see that the ball is moving straight (linear)
Towards the axis. It strikes the pvc at a 90-degree vector.
Notice how it bounces straight away from the surface?

If it is truly moving at 1.2m/s ( I cannot verify that)
 steel vs pvc is partially inelastic collision. I could prove to you
exactly how much of the impact momentum gets converted to
heat. It's not an amount that is significant, but it was the first
identifiable loss. After further review, I have a few others to
discuss.
What I see from slowing the video down is the ball in front
Closest to the screen hits first, the pvc moves towards the
Other ball, shortening the time it would have hit by a fraction
Of a second, and the second ball strikes a moment later,
Causing the pvc to stop moving in that direction
a portion of the rotational momentum carries back to the pvc
certainly not 100% of it
However, the forward and downward momentum of the test device
Appear to be the dominant momentii throughout the video.
The input from your hand was much more than the returning balls
Put back as rotational momentum to the pvc.


I don't see energy being created here.
I see energy dissipated as heat, sound, physical vibrations
And reversal of angular velocity by momentum exchange.
All of these things are minus energy



Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: re: energy producing experiments
« Reply #6 on: February 09, 2017, 05:22:16 AM »
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Offline Delburt Phend

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Re: re: energy producing experiments
« Reply #7 on: February 10, 2017, 11:41:29 PM »
It is important to note that the quantity of momentum at the end is equal to the quantity of momentum at the beginning. This means that the quantity of momentum is the same at every point in between the beginning to the end. The total quantity of momentum will not change; without the application of outside force.  The cylinder moves 20 mm in four frames at the beginning; in the middle; and at the end. But these three points are not where the energy is at a high point. The energy is at a high point when the cylinder is stopped.
 
When you search yo-yo despin you will get about a dozen sites that throw the tethered spheres off when the cylinder (disk, satellite) is stopped. NASA predicts that these thrown spheres have the same energy of the original spinning energy; this is not true.  The spheres have the same momentum as the original spinning momentum. These dozen experimenters are conserving momentum not energy.

You can’t grab momentum out of the blue; and you can’t lose it. There is no 95% heat loss for momentum; it remains the same. The final momentum is the same because the spheres have the same momentum when they have all the motion. And in this experiment; when the spheres have all the motion they have a 450% increase over the original energy.
 
In most of the dozen sites; the experimenters are producing much more than 450% increases in energy because the mass ratio of system/spheres is larger.

The double stop experiment proves that the motion can go back and forth. Energy allegedly loses heat and therefore cannot go back and forth.
 
When a 399 kilogram block (at rest) is struck by a 1 kilogram bullet moving 400 m/sec the block will accelerate to 1 m/sec.

When a 399 kilogram rim (with bearing) mass wheel (at rest) is struck tangent by a one kilogram bullet moving 400 m/sec; the rim will accelerate to 1 m/sec.
 
If we wrap a string around a 399 kilogram rim at rest; and place the bullet moving 400 m/sec on the end of the string and moving perpendicular to the string; would we then accelerate the rim to 20 m/sec or still just 1 m/sec? 

Offline sm0ky2

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Re: re: energy producing experiments
« Reply #8 on: February 11, 2017, 08:25:45 AM »
I think you are missing the point
While total momentum is conserved, true
This momentum has magnitudes and vectors
At the end, the momentum of the balls is
In a direction away from the cylinder and
Not is the direction the cylinder is moving.
The total momentum of the system is divided
Along 3 vectors (minus that which was lost in
   the collision). The primary vector being that
Direction the cylinder is traveling. Each of the two
Balls have their final momentum along the other
Two vectors. Which are actually gravitational based
ballistic events, that arc downwards in a calculable manner.
By the ballistics path, knowing the weight of the balls
You can calculate their velocity
And by knowing the materials constants for the steel
And pvc, a reversing of the equation we can know the
Impact velocity and resulting force, thereby calculating
How much energy was converted into heat, and how much
Went into moving the cylinder 90-degrees to its path of motion.
May not have been a true 90, you whirled it kind of lopsided
And I'm only judging it from your camera angle.
But the motion is visibly transverse to the cylinders direction
And by Newtonian mechanics, must have been 180-degrees to
The direction of the balls (+/- a factor for relative curvatures)


The standard experiment shows that the balls have the same momentum
as the balls. NOT the momentum of the cylinder OR the momentum
Of the entire contraption cylinder,balls, and string.
Momentum is a quantity defined by mass.
The cylinder had more of it than the balls


In your experiment, the momentum that was transferred to the
cylinder from the balls, cancelled out because the balls were opposite
each other.


Perform the same experiment with both balls on one side
They go around, smack the side and the cylinder goes diagonal


Balls bounce off just like before and if it doesn't touch down first
The balls will give a backwards jolt at the end

Offline sm0ky2

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Re: re: energy producing experiments
« Reply #9 on: February 11, 2017, 08:34:55 AM »
Before you attempt to quantify this experiment
You need a consistent launcher, other than your hand
So you know your input energy.


Maybe there with your software and the original footage
You feel comfortable using a digital frame rate for a clock
There are too many unknowns for me to place any accuracy
on that situation.
Conversion rates, frame buffers, storage rates, possible glitches
Software based frame alteration, file conversions,
And all before thebYOUTUBE anti-shake filter touched it.


You can assign an initial velocity and do the math to see exactly
What will happen. Looks similar to your video, but with more
precision, and elegance in flight.


Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: re: energy producing experiments
« Reply #9 on: February 11, 2017, 08:34:55 AM »
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Offline Delburt Phend

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Re: re: energy producing experiments
« Reply #10 on: February 11, 2017, 02:34:48 PM »
I don't see any significant software or video anomalies. The technology is getting very good; and it is financially available to about anyone.

When you compare the real results with expected results the momentum conservation becomes an absolute.

Momentum conservation requires that the cylinder motion at the end will be four frames to cover 20 mm.

Energy conservation requires a very low speed for the spheres when the spheres have all the motion. The sphere speed is 2.12 m/sec for the first cylinder stop. Sufficient momentum to restart the motion of the cylinder is gone. By the second restart the motion would be down to 22% if energy were conserved by the spheres.

Only momentum can be given from the spheres to the cylinder. So if you lose a little over half your momentum from cylinder motion to spheres motion; twice; you are down to 22% of the original motion.

Energy conservation would require 4 frames /.22 = 18 frame to cross 20 mm.

At the end of the experiment it appears that the rotation rate is still 4 frame to cross 20 mm.

It does not in any way appear to be 18 frame to cross 20 mm.

You have to pick one or the other; is it 18 or 4.

If you have 100 unbiased observers pick between 4 and 18, they would 100% of the time pick 4.

The fact that the experiment is falling is total inconsequential. The spinning motion and the falling motion are independent of each other.

I still don't think the spheres hit the side of the cylinder; but it does not matter whether they do or not the motion is still 4 frames to cross 20 mm. Nor does the direction of the spheres matter they can still be directed up from any direction.

Offline Kator01

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Re: re: energy producing experiments
« Reply #11 on: February 11, 2017, 06:53:49 PM »
Hello Delburt Phend... or should I say pequaide ?

we stopped the discussion about 8 years ago:

http://overunity.com/1995/free-energy-from-gravitation-using-newtonian-physic/msg165397/#msg165397

and as I remember there was good consense about the basics.

Now we better think about finding a technical solution to earn the energy as this is the crux of the matter.

regards

Mike


Offline Delburt Phend

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Re: re: energy producing experiments
« Reply #12 on: February 11, 2017, 09:08:21 PM »
I am not sure how you are using he word 'earn'; is that making the energy, or using the energy.

The energy is made by making a closed system place all the motion is smaller subset of the mass.

The energy can be used by throwing it up into the air; and holding it as potential energy. 

The larger combined mass; at 1.2 m/sec; would only rise .0733945m. For .594 kg *9.81 N/kg * .07339 m = .4277 joules of potential energy.

The smaller .132g  mass at 5.4 m/sec would rise 1.486 m. For .132 kg * 9.81 N/kg *1.486 m = 1.924 joules of potential energy.

The energy when the spheres have all the motion is 450% larger 1.925 J /.4277 J.

You would have the same 450% increase if the spheres had a mass of 5 tons and the cylinder 17.5 metric tons.

If the mass ratio was 20 (total) to one (spheres mass) the present increase would be 2000%.

Offline telecom

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Re: re: energy producing experiments
« Reply #13 on: February 12, 2017, 03:05:38 AM »
How to make this remarkable concept into the machine?

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Offline Delburt Phend

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Re: re: energy producing experiments
« Reply #14 on: February 12, 2017, 05:02:17 AM »
The Atwood’s machine produces massive amounts of momentum: and it has a wheel or rim.

The cylinder and spheres machine produces massive amounts of energy; and the cylinder can be a wheel or rim.

Bring together the Atwood with a cylinder and spheres concept and you have the machine in question.

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Re: re: energy producing experiments
« Reply #14 on: February 12, 2017, 05:02:17 AM »

 

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