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Author Topic: Permanent-Electret Powered Electrostatic-Motor( or generator )  (Read 2181 times)

Offline guest1289

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Permanent-Electret Powered Electrostatic-Motor( or generator )
« on: January 30, 2017, 08:05:11 PM »
  Permanent-Electret  Powered  Electrostatic-Motor( or generator )

   Basically, using  modern permanent-electrets  to power an electrostatic-motor like the one built by franklin 250-years ago.

   (  refer to the principle of charge separation,  by which the electrophorus functions  )

   This could be done either totally via a mechanical design,  or,  with the addition of some type of circuitry.
    (  assumedly,  the device would need an earth connection,  as part of the charge separation process )

   And,  obviously,  apply the same idea to power a generator.

   Obviously,  I'm posting a very obvious idea here,  so until anyone has any sort of functioning model,  there may not be much point in posting a reply.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy


Offline conradelektro

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Re: Permanent-Electret Powered Electrostatic-Motor( or generator )
« Reply #1 on: January 30, 2017, 08:41:58 PM »
You might want to read this book:

https://books.google.at/books/about/Electrets_In_Engineering.html?id=exF0dkjju1UC&redir_esc=y

Just do a search with "electret motor" in Google.

After some study you will leran that an electret motor will have low torque because the field strength of an electret is very low. It can not be elevated like a magnetic coil by just running more power through it. There is only so much charge which can be trapped in an electret.

I do not want to discourage research, but look at the obvious before talking. You have to learn what is allready known before dreaming about improvements.

There may not be much point in posting before you have studied the subject to a certain depth.

Greetings, Conrad


Offline sm0ky2

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Re: Permanent-Electret Powered Electrostatic-Motor( or generator )
« Reply #2 on: January 31, 2017, 08:06:45 AM »
Electrets can be used to initiate charge separation
And, in some cases, charge an object over time,
through induction.


Two opposing electrets can double the potential.
In a round- about way its like connecting batteries
In series.


What's really interesting about these things
Is when you use them in coils in a magnetic
Motor/Generator.
In the proper configuration, the electret acts
In its' quasi-diamagnetic state, and helps push
The rotor out of the field.

This action led to my discovery that the boundary
Of a static-electric field exhibits diamagnetism
When moving through a magnetic field.



Offline Zephir

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Re: Permanent-Electret Powered Electrostatic-Motor( or generator )
« Reply #3 on: January 31, 2017, 03:02:37 PM »
Usage of electret in electrostatic motor is analogous to usage of permanent magnet in electromagnetic motor.
We can charge capacitor with wire and/or power magnet with coil, but their replacement with special materials generating these fields doesn't bring any overunity by itself.


Offline guest1289

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Re: Permanent-Electret Powered Electrostatic-Motor( or generator )
« Reply #4 on: January 31, 2017, 07:44:49 PM »
conradelektro
Quote
You might want to read this book:

https://books.google.at/books/about/Electrets_In_Engineering.html?id=exF0dkjju1UC&redir_esc=y

Just do a search with "electret motor" in Google.

After some study you will leran that an electret motor will have low torque because the field strength of an electret is very low. It can not be elevated like a magnetic coil by just running more power through it. There is only so much charge which can be trapped in an electret.

    I tried reading that book, but the page-controls/buttons are in another language,  and also,  it will be too much reading for me at the moment .
     However, I did do some searches in it's text.

    So just to clarify what I'm looking for is :
        'An Electrostatic-Motor Which Is Only Powered By A Modern-Permanent-Electret, Like The Ones Found In Electret-Microphones'( those electrets seem to last 20+ years, so a correctly designed motor should spin for 20+ years )  ,   one with no  external-energy-input  at all .
           Or  :
         even  just   'An Electrostatic-Motor Which Is Only Powered By Antique Electret'( beeswax/resin electrets retain their charge for a few days,  so a correctly designed motor should spin for a few days )
         I realize the charged-nodes on something like the franklin motor from 250-years ago may possibly be defined as electrets,  but obviously those motors don't spin for very long.

    At the moment I'm only looking for it just as a  perpetual-motion device,   just to see if anyone has ever designed and built one that worked successfully,   however,  in all my searching on google,  I have never found one.
    Once I find a successful design,  I hope to see if it can be improved/modified into something more powerful,  by,  for example,    using any minuscule power generated to continually charge some temporary electrets to increase motor power,   and by continually repeating that cycle,  see if energy can be multiplied.

   (  Note : Obviously ,  those electrostatic-motors powered by aerials( to collect atmospheric electrostatic charge ),  or any other electrical charge directly from the environment,  don't count for my search,  because to me they are like  solar/wind energy,  limited in their potential  )
____________

    sm0ky2
Quote
This action led to my discovery that the boundary
Of a static-electric field exhibits diamagnetism
When moving through a magnetic field.

        You might be able to definitively/definitely  prove that by  floating  an  electret?  above  a magnet( or,  in one or more fields of only  permanent-magnets,   'not'  electromagnets )
          Although,  it seems that  permanent-magnets  also have detectable  electric-fields .
You can see the proof,  a photo,   in the quoted-text below,  which has a  web-page-link,   I originally posted this on another thread         
Quote
    -  The proof that a  permanent-magnet( an unpowered-magnet )  has an electric-field can be viewed when a magnet is frozen solid in water,  the  Electric-Field then becomes clearly visible
        In the webpage below, find the text -  "Notice the angle of the electric field thats perpendicular to the magnet" - ,  to see the photo of the frozen magnetic-field of a permanent-magnet
http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/9680-tube-driven-tpus-construction-zone-5.html
          However,  I wonder if when you freeze a permanent-magnet,  it may become closer to being a super-conductor,  which is actually different to a room-temperature permanent-magnet,  but obviously a frozen permanent-magnet is not as cold as a  super-conductor( a much lower temperature,  frozen permanent-magnet )
_____________

Zephir
Quote
Usage of electret in electrostatic motor is analogous to usage of permanent magnet in electromagnetic motor.
We can charge capacitor with wire and/or power magnet with coil, but their replacement with special materials generating these fields doesn't bring any overunity by itself.

    yes, exactly

   And what I'm looking for is :
        'An Electrostatic-Motor Which Is Only Powered By A Modern-Permanent-Electret, Like The Ones Found In Electret-Microphones'( those electrets seem to last 20+ years, so a correctly designed motor should spin for 20+ years )  ,   one with no  external-energy-input  at all .

    As far as I know,  no one has ever made or designed one

     Maybe a purely mechanical/electrostatic one could be designed ,  or maybe it would need some modern circuitry too shift charges around

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Permanent-Electret Powered Electrostatic-Motor( or generator )
« Reply #4 on: January 31, 2017, 07:44:49 PM »
Sponsored links:




Offline sm0ky2

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Re: Permanent-Electret Powered Electrostatic-Motor( or generator )
« Reply #5 on: January 31, 2017, 08:40:36 PM »
While one's first assumption of a diamagnetic effect
Is to imagine it like a repelling magnet
It is not always in the way you assume


Static electric fields exhibit a force 90-degrees to the
magnetic, so instead of pushing away from the magnet
in an 'away' direction, the electret will go sideways to get
out of the field.
Perpendicular to the magnetic polarization
And perpendicular to the gravitational
(gravitational flux carries current,amplitude and frequency
   components. Which give it its magnitude over time in
   accordance with the effective mass of the electrical
   signal.)

In combination with a magnetic field, like in an electret
Wrapped in a coil - the force is a combination between
The direction of the repelling magnetic force and the
90-degree force of the electret.
Which forms a curve through the magnetic field.


Offline conradelektro

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Re: Permanent-Electret Powered Electrostatic-Motor( or generator )
« Reply #6 on: January 31, 2017, 09:58:05 PM »
Quote
The guest wrote: At the moment I'm only looking for it just as a  perpetual-motion device,   just to see if anyone has ever designed and built one that worked successfully,   however,  in all my searching on google,  I have never found one.
    Once I find a successful design,  I hope to see if it can be improved/modified into something more powerful,  by,  for example,    using any minuscule power generated to continually charge some temporary electrets to increase motor power,   and by continually repeating that cycle,  see if energy can be multiplied.

There seems to be a misunderstanding. An electret motor needs a HV power supply, it is not a perpetual motion machine. It may need only little power, but it then will have only very little torque.

An electret is only charged once and holds the charge for some time (days, weeks, even months). Charging an electret is done (with HV) while it cools or solidifies. After the electret has set, it can not be charged any more. During the cooling or Setting of an electret a surplus or lack of electrones is frozen in place and can not be changed any more (only after a long time electrons seep in or leak out).

So, the power needed to turn an electret motor does not go into the electret, it gives the electret motor ist torque. And also in the electret motor, less torque comes out than electricity is put in (energy wise). Losses are friction and dissipation of the HV into the air (sparking).

Building a self running electret motor is as impossible as building a self running permanent magnet motor. But permanent magnets are easy to get and are very strong in comparisson to an electret. Therefore many people play with permanent magnets and only a few with (the weak) electrets.

Greetings, Conrad

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Permanent-Electret Powered Electrostatic-Motor( or generator )
« Reply #6 on: January 31, 2017, 09:58:05 PM »
Sponsored links:




Offline guest1289

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Re: Permanent-Electret Powered Electrostatic-Motor( or generator )
« Reply #7 on: January 31, 2017, 11:40:48 PM »
conradelektro
Quote
An electret motor needs a HV power supply, it is not a perpetual motion machine. It may need only little power, but it then will have only very little torque.


An electret is only charged once and holds the charge for some time (days, weeks, even months). Charging an electret is usually done (with HV) while it cools or solidifies. After the electret has set, it can not be charged any more.


So, the power needed to turn an electret motor does not go into the electret, it gives the electret motor ist torque. And also in the electret motor, less torque comes out than electricity is put in (energy wise). Losses are friction and dissipation of the HV into the air (sparking).

    yes, I know all that etc

     (  my apologies,  although I already know everything you have typed so far,  I have been somewhat incoherent in how I have presented my ideas,  because my ideas are evolving even as I type them, 
         today,  I added the idea of  making  an  electrostatic-motor  equivalent  of a  free-energy magnet-motor( the no electrical-input type,  because I had forgotten it in my first post  )

    Obviously I don't have any one specific design,  I'm only posting these ideas incase anyone thinks of a way of very simplifying these ideas,  into something they may want to build.

     Today, I'm trying to integrate/combine the ideas of:
      ( 1 ) -  using electrets ,  based on principles like magnet-motors,  but using electrets instead of magnets,  in other words it relies on electrostatic forces instead of magnetic forces
      ( 2 ) - With,  the principle of the  'AUTOMATION'  of  the  electrophorus procedure of charge-separation , to self power the motor,  maybe so it would run like the  franklin-electrostatic-motor from 250-years ago( or like the idea in  ( 1 ) .

     Obviously I'm looking for something which I assume has never been invented before,      an  electrostatic-motor which is :
      -  Either, based on principles like magnet-motors,  but uses electrets instead of magnets,  in other words it relies on electrostatic forces instead of magnetic forces
      -   And / Or,  based on the principle of the  'AUTOMATION'  of  the  electrophorus procedure of charge-separation , to self power the motor,  maybe so it would run like the  franklin-electrostatic-motor from 250-years ago
      -  which is only powered by electrets( used for the electrophorus procedure of charge-separation,  and/or,  on another principle in this list ) ,  IT WOULD HAVE NO EXTERNAL POWER INPUT
      -  and  maybe  additional electrets could also be used in the motor only to directly increase the torque( like adding more permanent-magnets to an electromagnetic-motor  )
      -  if the device were to generate any miniscule amount of power,  that could go to charge up capacitors/plates  to act as either capacitors or as additional electrets, I don't know

     So, I'd start with the franklin electrostatic-motor from 250-years ago,  and then extensively modify it,  to  'automate'  the  electrophorus procedure of charge-separation ,   either via purely mechanical/electrostatic means,  or by adding modern circuitry 
      And/Or,  using electrets based on principles like magnet-motors,  but using electrets instead of magnets,  in other words it relies on electrostatic forces instead of magnetic forces   )

     Interestingly, yesterday after you suggested I research this topic,  I discovered that at least one other person on another website had thought up the same basic idea,  that is :
   "to use electrets to power an  electrostatic-motor,  in the same way that people try to make permanent-magnets power magnets-motors( with no electrical input )
         So obviously that person had not also thought of 'automating'  the  electrophorus procedure of charge-separation,  and combining it with the  'above' ideas.
____________

sm0ky2
Quote
While one's first assumption of a diamagnetic effect
Is to imagine it like a repelling magnet
It is not always in the way you assume


Static electric fields exhibit a force 90-degrees to the
magnetic, so instead of pushing away from the magnet
in an 'away' direction, the electret will go sideways to get
out of the field.
Perpendicular to the magnetic polarization
And perpendicular to the gravitational
(gravitational flux carries current,amplitude and frequency
   components. Which give it its magnitude over time in
   accordance with the effective mass of the electrical
   signal.)

In combination with a magnetic field, like in an electret
Wrapped in a coil - the force is a combination between
The direction of the repelling magnetic force and the
90-degree force of the electret.
Which forms a curve through the magnetic field.

   Is your  discovery a known scientific fact,  regarding the visible reaction between  electric-fields  and  magnetic-fields,   the  sideways-deflection-discovery  you made .

   I definitely never knew about this .

   ( regarding gravitational flux,  I'm going to see if that's mentioned on wikipedia or stackexchange  )

    Did you replicate your discovery just using  permanent-magnets( no electromagnets,  because electromagnets have a very significant electric-field )

    A  wikipedia-webpage link to the known scientific theory,  or to another credible site would be really great,  or is it on their pages for electromagnetism  or  electric-fields /  electrostatics  .

    But most importantly,  if you can think of a way how we could replicate this  'easily'  at home just using  permanent-magnets  and charged pieces of plastic or whatever.

Offline guest1289

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Re: Permanent-Electret Powered Electrostatic-Motor( or generator )
« Reply #8 on: February 05, 2017, 03:27:43 PM »
   A Completely Self-Powered  'Automated'  Electrophorus

   I'm just typing this to state the obvious,  it seems that an  electrophorus  would supply more than enough voltage to  completely  self-power an  automated  version of itself( like the hand cranked version built by  conradelektro )

conradelektro
Quote
several thousand Volts
   
     Above is a quote from  conradelektro  from his thread below,  which describes the voltage generated by the  'electrophorus'  :
    http://overunity.com/16448/modified-electrophorus-precharged-variable-capacitor/15/
   Search the above webpage for  "volts",  and read 'all' the webpage,  it includes reference to a patent,  and that this was all invented before,  that page above,  is a very important one.

    So,  my(?) idea is that this  'self-powered-automated-electrophorus' ,  would very much resemble a single piston/cylinder engine,  that the  "several thousand Volts"  would  be used to power  a  'Solenoid'(?)  to  raise  the  plate  away from the electret,  and that a  spring or gravity,  would place the plate back on the electret,  although that  'raising' and  'placing'  action could be reversed regarding the  solenoid  and the spring( or gravity )
______________

    Permanent-Electret  Powered  Electrostatic Equivalent Of A Magnet-Motor( free-energy/perpetual-motion type )
     - An electrostatic equivalent of  magnet-motors( free-energy/perpetual-motion types ),  unless I'm wrong,  you could make electrostatic equivalents of my  "Magnet-Motor-3.5" ,  or almost any of the  magnet-motors  I have posted on this site in the last 2-years.
         So as long as all the  electrets  in such a motor would be  permanent-electrets ( although that may not necessarily be required )    such a motor could keep running for 20 years or more
          ( some people claim that the magnetic-stresses in magnet motors reduce their lifespan to maybe 5-years,  but in many of my magnet motor designs,  stator-magnets, or, rotor-magnets,  can simply be replaced with metal, which means that they would only work via attraction,  which causes much less  magnetic-stresses,  so I think the same could apply to  electrostatic equivalents )
______________

sm0ky2
Quote
This action led to my discovery that the boundary
Of a static-electric field exhibits diamagnetism
When moving through a magnetic field.

   sm0ky2 's  discovery :  Maybe a way to test that discovery,  would be to charge up an  electret( or just plastic )  to a very high voltage,  and,   put  permanent-magnets  on the rim of a very very fast spinning wheel,   and then see if the  electret is  deflected in any direction at all
   (  from the description of the discovery,  it may take a lot of testing with different angles  and  distances ,  surely this is an important discovery,  unless it's already mentioned in literature   )

 

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