# Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

## Mechanical free energy devices => mechanic => Topic started by: Floor on January 21, 2017, 05:14:49 PM

Title: Magnet force shield
Post by: Floor on January 21, 2017, 05:14:49 PM

This really works and is an amazingly simple solution to
the "sticky spot" in magnet "smots" and in an "all magnet motor design".

It is the basic reason for the successful functioning of
the TD (or twist drive) designs.

Magnets ARE NOT CONSERVATIVE in all interactions, but rather they are only so
when the vectors of their approach to one another, and their escape from one another
are limited to the typical.

If properly constrained in their motions to sequences of specific right angle vectors
in relation to their poles, magnets are not conservative.
and / or
If properly constrained in their motions to sequences of specific right angle vectors
in relation to their poles, and then constrained to a specific axis of rotation in relation
to their poles, again magnets are not conservative.

More work and / or energy can be cyclically gotten out of their force interactions than is input.

Much more !

By using 3 inexpensive ceramic magnet in hand, one can easily and quickly
demonstrate this for ones self.

From a hard ware store these magnet typically cost around \$4 U.S. for two
of them (1 7/8  by 7/8 by 3/8 inch).  With four of the magnets one can easily
demonstrate this principle.

Pleas find the attached PNG drawings.

best wishes
floor
Title: Re: Magnet force shield
Post by: Floor on January 21, 2017, 05:27:05 PM

More detailed explinations can be found at these links

http://overunity.com/14311/work-from-2-magnets-19-output-2/

http://overunity.com/16987/td-replications/

http://overunity.com/17070/all-magnet-motor-td-based/

floor
Title: Re: Magnet force shield
Post by: conradelektro on January 21, 2017, 06:17:54 PM
@Floor:

Conventional wisdom (or science) says that whatever shield you use, it costs as much to move and remove the shield than what you can gain by using the shield.

There are hundreds of (useless) patents for permanent magnet motors with all sorts of shields.

Magnetic force is conservative in all directions and with all shapes of magnets.

Of course you can always question conventional science, but you would need very strong and convincing proof. Best would be a permanent magnet motor self running. But it was never shown and it should not work.

It might be possible to come up with a permanent magnet motor at a temperature of absolut zero degrees (minus 273,15 centigrade). A bit like supra conductivity.

An other possible venue would be a motor at the atomic level embedded in a strange molecule, turning with the same speed (or a harmonic) as the electron zips around the core of an atom.

The only things not known are the very small (at the size of atoms or even smaller), the very big (cosmological sizes like galaxies) and the very cold (at absolut zero). All "normal" things you can easily touch and work on, are pretty well established.

The big time of "home scientists" was the nineteenth century, and many things were discovered at "home laboratories". Nowadays you need stranger things like particle accelerators, very cold places or telescopes in space.

There are things you could work on: http://www.wired.co.uk/article/elon-musk-solar-city-roofs-october-28 (http://www.wired.co.uk/article/elon-musk-solar-city-roofs-october-28)

Mr. Musk made a big show of solar roofs. But I could not find, how he intends to connect the individual roof tiles (individual shingles or whatever you want to call them, the individual photo voltaic plates). It is a bummer to only connect twenty big solar panels, but what about hundreds of little ones? So, if you can come up with a good idea on how to do that, it would help enormously. Observe that there will be considerable erosion on the roof, because of rain, cold, heat and ultra violet rays, not to forget ice, snow and wind. I followed the patent literature about this problem for years, but nothing good was invented.

A roof and solar panels are not a good match. They should be ventilated on the roof side. Therefore they are kept at a distance of about 10 cm from the roof, what means that some sort of structure is mounted 10 cm above the roof. This then means that one has many points where a bolt or a cable goes through the roof, which are all possible and future leaks. It is much better to mount photo voltaic panels on a wall of the house where leaks are not so difficult to avoid. Or one mounts photo voltaic panels on a structure a few meters away from the house, which is not pretty. I saw some nice arrangements at houses built on a steep slope (which causes other problems, e.g it is not nice to live there).

So, there are plenty of good ideas still outstanding in the field of alternative energy generation (with conventional means like wind, solar rays or water). And this could be done at home with little money. It is all about how to mount these things and how to integrate them in a house, also the electrical installation.

Title: Re: Magnet force shield
Post by: Floor on January 21, 2017, 07:12:15 PM

"Magnetic force is conservative in all directions and with all shapes of magnets."

End Quote

You are simply, miss understanding the interactions in this matter.

Yes, it is a simple fact that, the force required to pull two magnets apart
is the same as the force of their attraction.  In this respect magnets are "conservative".

It is precisely because magnets are conservative in that respect...
that
when both a N pole and S pole are facing either a  single N or a single S pole
they exhibit no NET magnetic force (neither attracting nor repelling)...
when that force is allowed to act ONLY along a vector as illustrated in the PNG drawings.

This is in fact, also a conservative interaction, as zero is equal to zero.

When the proper alignment of magnets is made (as illustrated)

The center magnet or magnets IN EFFECT provide as force
shield between the two outer magnets.  See this for your self.

This is easily accomplished by mounting one of the magnets upon a sliding track,
and fixing the other magnet to a base,  or by simply holding the magnets in hand.

Please examine the drawings / examples or there is no real discussion here.

regards
floor
Title: Re: Magnet force shield
Post by: Floor on January 21, 2017, 09:33:49 PM

If it remains very long, that there is no response from you, then I will
consider it.... that you have conceded.

best wishes
floor

PS

Title: Re: Magnet force shield
Post by: conradelektro on January 22, 2017, 01:41:37 PM

If it remains very long, that there is no response from you, then I will
consider it.... that you have conceded.

I told the standard answer to a "magnetic shield". Well, you have an other opinion, which is fine.

What remains is proof. I know, the measurements are difficult and tedious. That is the reason why I am not doing measurements with permanent magnets. I believe the standard explanation till some one provides conclusive proof otherwise.

The easiest way to conclusively prove that a "magnetic shield" is what you are claiming, would be a self running permanent magnet motor.

The "magnetic shield" in a permanent magnet motor is the equivalent to turning of or reducing the current in a motor with coils at certain times during a revolution. And exactly that was never shown. There is no "magnetic shield" in the sense you are claiming. Placing and removing a "magnetic shield" costs more than can be gained. It is similar to a "gravity shield", which also can not exist.

P.S.: Sorry about the photo voltaic roof shingles, it would be something worth while to work on (in contrast to "magnetic shields").
Title: Re: Magnet force shield
Post by: norman6538 on January 22, 2017, 02:12:53 PM
Floor in this drawing "Magnet force shield 2.PNG" I have tested the
effect of turning on and off the magnetic repel force and it appears
that a simple sliding force will do this. So I will put this together
and measure the forces to see what the input and output work
really are.

It looks very exciting...
The tricky part of the repel work done is "closer stronger and further
weaker" so as they push apart and give you work out they give less
and less work out.

Thanks,

Norman

Title: Re: Magnet force shield
Post by: Zephir on January 22, 2017, 03:24:40 PM
Quote
Magnetic force is conservative in all directions and with all shapes of magnets
The above claim is rather assumption given for thoroughly measured steady state - but what about the dynamic transition phenomena? I'm not sure it does apply on temporal basis.

For example we know, that the attraction of magnets to piece of irons doesn't run continuously: the individual ferromagnetic domains resist their re-orientation and they're doing it in small jumps, which can be detected as so-called the Barkhaussen noise (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BLXVLDysroY). That means, for brief intervals of time the magnetic field and the forces between magnets cannot be considered as a fully conservative quantity anymore. The magnetic force must "wait" for reorientation of domains, before it can increase/decrease again. And what would reorient the magnetic domains during these intervals? The thermal fluctuations of material, which will assist this process into account of the content of heat of the material, which will cool itself during it.

These brief intervals of time are therefore just the moments, when the negentropy can take its place according to my theory (http://www.overunity.com/15124/simplest-theory-of-overunity-devices-possible).
Title: Re: Magnet force shield
Post by: Floor on January 22, 2017, 03:44:06 PM

hearing.   As per usual you input had value, and helped scope the
project.

thanks
floor
Title: Re: Magnet force shield
Post by: Floor on January 22, 2017, 03:46:31 PM
@norman6538

Looking forward to it Norman.

regards
floor
Title: Re: Magnet force shield
Post by: norman6538 on January 22, 2017, 11:39:37 PM
Referring back to this drawing.... "Magnet force shield 2.PNG"

If you pull the magnet straight out from the drawing toward  you there is little effort required to  release the repel force and you can then reset/
another repel force by pushing it back where it was and easily sliding the moved magnet back into its repel position where it can be repeated.

Floor you really have something this time. I'll work up something with
work in and work out measurements but the further weaker factor will
be a limiting factor.

But it seems that when the magnets are attracting then to turn the attraction on and off
you slide the magnet up or down.

Norman

Title: Re: Magnet force shield
Post by: Floor on January 23, 2017, 12:35:35 AM
@ norman6538

Those particular PNG drawings are intended only to show the principle of
the "shielding" in its most basic form.

They are intended to show that the "shield" magnet is easily
installed / removed, but are not intended to demonstrate
a cyclical operation.

The magnetic polar aliments are easily confusing. I some times
need to hold my magnets directly in front of the drawings
in order to make certain that I am setting things up correctly.

Note that,  two magnet can under some conditions stick together
LIKE POLE TO LIKE POLE.
because
At very close distances domain and individual atomic magnetic alignments
can flip within the magnets.  This may cause minor stickiness during withdrawal
of the "shield" magnet.
also
If the magnets used are of a greatly different gause, this can utterly wreck the
interactions.  e.g. don't use neo magnets and ceramic magnets in the same
device.

regards
Title: Re: Magnet force shield
Post by: Floor on January 24, 2017, 03:53:30 AM

You misquoted me 4 times in your last post as  "magnetic shield".
listed here below are those 4 misquotes.

1. I told the standard answer to a "magnetic shield". "

2. "The easiest way to conclusively prove that a "magnetic shield" is what you are claiming,..."

3. "The "magnetic shield" in a permanent magnet motor is the equivalent to turning of or reducing
the current in a motor with coils at certain times during a revolution."

4. "There is no "magnetic shield" in the sense you are claiming."

End Quotes

I HAVE NOT CLAIMED A  "magnetic shield"  AT ALL !

Magnet force shield is the title of this topic.

Magnet force shield 1, 2 and 3 are the labels on the 3 PNG drawing sets.

I have used the following phrases...

magnetic force shield

shield magnet

"shield magnet"
and
"The center magnet or magnets IN EFFECT provide as force shield between the two outer magnets."
(this should read as  (provide a force shield)
...

Don't bother to make argument that the distinctions
I point out in in the phrasings are insignificant.

As I said previously, you have simply not
understood the interactions illustrated in
the drawings.

The shield magnet or magnets in combination with the normal force,  prevent the magnetic force
from acting along specific lines (as illustrated).

And yes this does make it possible to get very much MORE WORK AND / OR ENERGY OUT OF
THESE INTERACTIONS THAN IS PUT INTO THEM.

1.  Either explain to me the interactions as I have illustrated them, as proof that you
do understand their statements.
or
2.  Ask me questions specific to the drawings / the interactions.

Don't post this redundant nay saying trash.  It's not even specific to the drawings
or interactions illustrated.....           It is off topic.

Otherwise there is no real discussion of the topic by you, only disruption.

I won't accept another apology from you on this matter.  Just stop disrupting /
misdirecting and make relavent comments or don't post here.

good day sir
floor
Title: Re: Magnet force shield
Post by: conradelektro on January 24, 2017, 10:38:21 PM

1.  Either explain to me the interactions as I have illustrated them, as proof that you
do understand their statements.
or
2.  Ask me questions specific to the drawings / the interactions.

Don't post this redundant nay saying trash.  It's not even specific to the drawings
or interactions illustrated.....           It is off topic.

Otherwise there is no real discussion of the topic by you, only disruption.

I won't accept another apology from you on this matter.  Just stop disrupting /
misdirecting and make relavent comments or don't post here.

good day sir
floor

I just repeated the textbook answers because you seem not to know them. I do not have to prove textbook answers, just read a good book.

To the contrary, you have to prove that you have found an anomaly. And you have to make sure that your proof is understandable. It would be an endless and hopeless task to talk about every misconception and crackpot idea out there. I am not your teacher, but you become some sort of teacher when making extraordinary claims. You want to be believed.

I am making no claims, I just offer the little wisdom I have. Of course I am not prepared to put any real work into whatever obviously contradicts known science. I would put in some work and money if extraordinary proof were offered, e.g. a self running permanent magnet motor.

http://www.qcc.cuny.edu/socialsciences/ppecorino/phil_of_religion_text/CHAPTER_5_ARGUMENTS_EXPERIENCE/Burden-of-Proof.htm (http://www.qcc.cuny.edu/socialsciences/ppecorino/phil_of_religion_text/CHAPTER_5_ARGUMENTS_EXPERIENCE/Burden-of-Proof.htm)

I will not write any more in this thread. So, your ideas are save from me. Extraordinary claims invite harsh criticism, get used to it. You are the weirdo who wants the world to listen. So, provide something believable. I am not defending known science, there are thousands of good books and courses doing this job. You are up against 200 years of research, not against me. What you are talking about are common misconceptions, done hundreds of times before. You are entitled to do whatever you want and I am entitled to criticize. "Magnetic force shields" would have been discovered long ago if they existed. Get used to the fact that there are and were millions of people more clever than you (and me), who drove science along. A bit more self reflection and modesty.

Title: Re: Magnet force shield
Post by: norman6538 on January 24, 2017, 10:58:27 PM
Why do we have to get into these "ego battles"? And why is the keyboard so much more used than the workbench? I have very primitively tested the idea and now am at
the workbench making a measurable setup to see for myself. Why doesn't anyone else
do the same?   It must be a disease.......

Get your butt out to the workbench and see for yourself...

Norman
Title: Re: Magnet force shield
Post by: Cherryman on January 25, 2017, 12:40:01 AM
Why do we have to get into these "ego battles"? And why is the keyboard so much more used than the workbench? I have very primitively tested the idea and now am at
the workbench making a measurable setup to see for myself. Why doesn't anyone else
do the same?   It must be a disease.......

Get your butt out to the workbench and see for yourself...

Norman

Wise words Sir.

This site has been infected with words exceeding action

Title: Re: Magnet force shield
Post by: norman6538 on January 25, 2017, 03:13:03 PM
Discouraging test results. My first test was a crude setup that used my hand to feel
the ease of the pull and thus release the repel force but when I replaced my hand with a real arm with more precision there is a sticky spot.

First if the magnet is not evenly placed it will either hold there or repel out from
between the repelling magnets.

Secondly when it comes out from between the repelling magnets it has a sticky
spot where it leaves.

I will try further precision to get real measurements but I'm not encouraged
at this point.

What does your bench work tell us???
I'd like to hear about your bench work. Its not really that hard unless you have
no bench skills.

Norman

PS if the magnet between the repelling magnets is too close to the like pole
end it will repel and push out. If it is too close to the unlike pole end it will
hold there in place.
Title: Re: Magnet force shield
Post by: sm0ky2 on January 25, 2017, 04:16:17 PM

An other possible venue would be a motor at the atomic level embedded in a strange molecule, turning with the same speed (or a harmonic) as the electron zips around the core of an atom.

Maybe if we used a strange and exotic material
Perhaps Element #26?
Maybe, just maybe, we could get all the tiny atoms to all synchronize
their electron orbits so the bulk of the material radiated at a harmonic
Of the atoms themselves......

Hmm
Title: Re: Magnet force shield
Post by: Floor on January 25, 2017, 04:28:43 PM
@all

Here is an alignment with 3 magnets.

floor
Title: Re: Magnet force shield
Post by: Floor on January 25, 2017, 05:23:32 PM
@Norman

Below, are details (drawings) of some magnet interactions.
These were posted in another topic.
These drawings DO NOT depict all possible combinations.

Understand the interactions for your self.

Why doesn't the previous drawing (my drawing) work?
(magnet force shield 2-1)
(shown above).
(it will not "work" in the way it was stated in those included descriptions).

It's a clear picture/ drawing.  The mid magnet can be installed and uninstalled without
resistance from the magnetic forces, but its wrong.

I could explain whats wrong with it.  But the drawings, explain what is wrong with it,
My descriptions (in the drawings) contradict what would happen in the examples.

I understand your statement that you have countered a sticky spot.  But what does this mean to me ?
Nothing !  As to how or where or why, I have no idea. You gave no details.

With out clear written descriptions or drawings or photos or something clearly stated and to the point.
I cant respond to your posts. meaningfully.  If I don't know what you are talking about, I don't know
regards
floor
Title: Re: Magnet force shield
Post by: norman6538 on January 25, 2017, 05:39:23 PM
Floor none of the above drawings are what I did. But here is what is used for testing.

http://overunity.com/17097/magnet-force-shield/msg498602/#msg498602
magnet force shield 1.png
text at top 2 large magnets (as repel poles)
text  at bottom 5 small magnets

And your text said "pull the center magnets toward you"
which turns the repel force on and push it back into place to turn it off......

so here is the sequence that would show work done by the permanent magnets.

1. easily pull the magnet toward you with the
repelling magnets held in place and then
2.  release them to do work and then
3. you can easily push that magnet back and
4. move the work done magnet back in place
making a full reset to repeat the steps.

Norman
Title: Re: Magnet force shield
Post by: Floor on January 25, 2017, 05:48:27 PM

floor
Title: Re: Magnet force shield
Post by: Floor on January 25, 2017, 06:01:07 PM
@Norman6538

Was there a balance (nearly) between the attractions and reputations as you
withdrew the mid magnets.

If so, there will be no sticky point, unless the magnets accidentally are allowed to
move side ways or to twist.

What did you observe, specifically ?
Title: Re: Magnet force shield
Post by: norman6538 on January 25, 2017, 08:55:00 PM
Attached is a photo of my setup. I used 2 7/8l x 1 7/8w x 3/8 thick magnets  like poles facing each other. and a magnet stack 1 1/4 long   7/8 w  3/8 thick. The magnet stack is surrounded with thin white aluminum like rain spouts. You can see N marked on the
left and S on the right.  The black on the right is tape and glue to hold the magnet
stack in a firm position.

The magnet stack is mounted so it swings toward the camera
and as you can see it is sitting at the sticky spot half way pushed out.

I will make another setup with a magnet stack longer than the repelling magnets to see if that changes anything.

Norman

Title: Re: Magnet force shield
Post by: Floor on January 25, 2017, 09:26:02 PM
Thats a trip Norman.

I don't know what is what in your photo, but I can tell you this much,
I don't think I can get any data and / or expect that your set up has
any value to the topic as an "experiment".   Its not precision enough.

If building is not "your thing" you might be better off  in hiring someone
to build a test device for you.

thanks for the attempt any way
regards
Floor

PS
I built my test device over a 6 week period.
Lots of hours (over 200) to design / build it.
Title: Re: Magnet force shield
Post by: norman6538 on January 26, 2017, 12:00:13 AM
Floor,

I did not appreciate your slam.

Encouragement would have been far better.

I did make a second one with smaller magnets and it performs better.
So I am encouraged.

Norman
Title: Re: Magnet force shield
Post by: Floor on January 26, 2017, 05:52:22 PM
@Norman6538

I apologize.

I appreciate your supporting this exploration / project, and mostly what I appreciate is
that you are a person of integrity on this forum.  Also I respect that you are willing to
see for your self and are neither a blind supporter, nor a auto pilot naysayer.

I meant what I said about having a test bed built, not as a slam, but as a real suggestion.
...................................................
I don't think its a bad thing if some one is not a "craftsman", though perhaps you are one ?

I do not know this for a certainty either way... as to whether or not you have
or do not have the skill sets for replications.  It is not a put down.  You might be an
excellent school teacher or rancher or house painter or... you name it, you might also
be an excellent builder.

I do Know that in order to satisfy the reasonable critics, a degree of excellence is called for (rightly so).

I do Know that in order to satisfy the reasonable critics, a degree of excellence is called for (rightly so).
Again I apologize for the note of sourness in that post.

best wishes
floor
Title: Re: Magnet force shield
Post by: Floor on January 26, 2017, 06:01:28 PM
@Norman6538

floor
Title: Re: Magnet force shield
Post by: norman6538 on January 26, 2017, 10:16:47 PM
@Norman6538

floor

Thanks Floor, I have seen too many well build devices that did not work that were a waste of time an money and I myself did some of them. Therefore I have learned to I start with a rough rapid prototype and then refine as I go. Today I am up to verson 3 and it is doing quite well. I hope to have measurement numbers within a day if not too swamped.

Have you done anything with the drawing that has the repelling magnets
and the stack between? Turning that magnetic repel force on and off easily really excites me.

I expect this to be my 3rd OU permanent magnet setup that I made and when you get to 3 devices that show more out than in its past time to wake up world.

VERY excited, - far better than the superbowl.

Norman
Title: Re: Magnet force shield
Post by: norman6538 on January 26, 2017, 11:08:52 PM
My tests show work out to work in ratio of 1.82. So I now have made 3 OU devices that demonstrate that not all energy is conserved when permanent magnets are configured properly to demonstrate work done.

CONGRATULATIONS Floor.

Norman
Title: Re: Magnet force shield
Post by: norman6538 on January 26, 2017, 11:28:36 PM
CORRECTION  the OU ratio is 4.75. I made a mistake on the spread sheet, sorry.
Much better than I thought.

YEAH Floor,

Norman
Title: Re: Magnet force shield
Post by: Floor on January 27, 2017, 12:14:58 AM
@Norman6538

Quote from Norman6538

"I have seen too many well build devices that did not work that were a waste of time ....... "

" ...... I hope to have measurement numbers within a day if not too swamped."

End quote

Understood
...............................................

I have done some tests with the repelling magnets and a stack between, but only
while using wider magnets than in the drawings.

I'm going straight on toward the all-magnet-motor @

http://overunity.com/17070/all-magnet-motor-td-based/

I have some of the most difficult to acquire materials for that on hand,
but not all of them.

I may  be away from the topics for some days.
lets keep on it.
floor
Title: Re: Magnet force shield
Post by: norman6538 on January 31, 2017, 01:20:17 AM
Recent tests show that the magnet stack does not kill all of the repelling force so my measurements are wrong. I can't believe how that magnetic force gets through the magnet stack. One would think if would flow into the flux flow like "current flow" in a stream of water.

Very disappointed.

Norman
Title: Re: Magnet force shield
Post by: webby1 on January 31, 2017, 01:54:03 AM
Indeed Norman,, magnetic fields are sneaky :)

Also remember that the field is a sphere,, not just pointing out one end and kind of turning around,, but rather connected TO the other end, if you squish that sphere to hard it will bend around that point,, like a balloon.
Title: Re: Magnet force shield
Post by: Floor on February 03, 2017, 05:27:52 PM

Please find the    "RtAngSld.png"   file below.

floor

Title: Re: Magnet force shield
Post by: Floor on February 03, 2017, 06:40:11 PM
@Noirman6835

I think you are one of a mere handful of people on the entire planet,
who has has given the time to actually understand the principles of the
twist drive. (I think ?).

Dude,
Prove / demonstrate the precision that your test device is capable of delivering.
I expect that I have to prove my devices and so on.  It has to be this way.
Show us that device in great detail.
I have to
Show us how it functions.
I have to.
show the actual methods you use in measuring (in detail).
I have to.
Give clear and detailed explanations.
I have to, or else my observations / claims
are a waste of  the readers time.

Facts are what science is about, whether validating or invalidating.

Otherwise the posting of the results you are "disappointed" with, are more
detrimental to the topics,  than even if you had either,  posted clear evidence
contradicting my own measurements, or not posted at all.

This is the third time, since I have been associated with you on the O.U. forum
that I have said this to you in one way or another.  It's not a slam, it whats I need
from you, its what a scientific en devour requires.

Your congratulation are not a validation, when / if  people think they are coming
from some one who doesn't really understand the subject any way.

I think you HAVE understood the magnet interactions.

My goal is to make it, so that a lot of people have understood them.

I'm not (in this topic) trying to prove any thing, nor am I looking for
replications per say.  I'm looking toward that 100th monkey, that is all.
I'm guessing that most people understand the "100th monkey thing".

By the way

Congratulations on being monkey number four or five out of many many millions !
Best wishes
floor
Title: Re: Magnet force shield
Post by: Floor on February 04, 2017, 01:53:22 AM

Here are some links to demonstration videos on this stuff.

@         http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x59r978

There are  TWO OTHER VIDEOS there, which describe the test device.
One is titled                          "magnet force test"  @          http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x4p1ome_magnet-force-test_tech
The other is titled                 "newTD2"                  @         http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x4phd00_newtd2_tech
All three videos were done by me under the user name " seethisvid" .

floor
Title: Re: Magnet force shield
Post by: norman6538 on February 04, 2017, 02:18:40 AM
Floor attached is your drawing that I made and tested. I was hoping that the magnet stack would turn off and on the repel forces but it does not.
I wanted to turn the repel force off and on to get net work.

Norman

Title: Re: Magnet force shield
Post by: Floor on February 04, 2017, 03:24:01 AM
@Norman6835

Quote from Norman6823

"Floor attached is your drawing that I made and tested. I was hoping that the magnet
stack would turn off and on the repel forces but it does not.

I wanted to turn the repel force off and on to get net work."

End Quote

Yes I see......  a partial, of a drawing .... I drew .....  and I hear you say that you "tested" it.
........................................................................
BUT
I went ahead and tested a thin magnet shield configuration for my self.  I did this
only because of some of your statements here.  My observations are the ( RtAngSld 3-1.PNG ) file above.

On a basis of Knowledge.... I fully expected my test would contradict what your statement
"the repel force is not turned off"
seems to imply.

What I found,  flat out contradicts what is implied in that part of your statement
"........ the magnet  stack would turn off and on the repel forces but it does not."

Your claim a fail.... and that statement implys that the principle I demonstrate is invalid.

You still haven't show us your measuring device or how it was used....
or
for that matter any measurements.

At this point,  I don't believe that you actually have a valid method and / or test device ... at all.

You should have been clear that it is your methods and test device that are the fail, and that they
cannot yield any more valid information than ...... that your methods were a fail.

Please stop posting on this topic.
floor
Title: Re: Magnet force shield
Post by: Floor on February 04, 2017, 03:50:50 AM

That png file  "RtAngSld 3-1" again here below.

floor
Title: Re: Magnet force shield
Post by: webby1 on February 04, 2017, 09:14:48 AM
I would suggest that you ask for any persons that are trying there own builds to supply the test setup and numbers,, good, bad or ugly.

Rough, crude tests are fine providing that on repeat runs the numbers are reasonably close,, 5 to 10 runs with a deviation on the numbers of less than say 5% would be a great data set,, 10% variance not so good,, 25% is not useable really.

I tend to throw out most "good" numbers and focus on the bad ones, that leads to a faster understanding, and with magnets,, well learning that it is a closed sphere is not so easy for most.

Remember that you do not have a monopole.

Remember that it is force and distance,, and with magnets sometimes as the distance changes the force interactions can do funny things.

With all that being said,, do not worry about these magnets pushing apart,, only look at the cost to remove the "shield" magnet and reinstall the shield magnet,, just sayin :)
Title: Re: Magnet force shield
Post by: citfta on February 04, 2017, 12:35:55 PM
Webby1 if you look at a recent video Floor posted it clearly shows the force to remove and reinsert the shield magnet is zero "IF" the other magnets are properly aligned.  If they are off by only a few degrees then there will be some force either repelling the shield magnet or attracting the shield magnet.

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x59r978

Respectfully,
Carroll
Title: Re: Magnet force shield
Post by: norman6538 on February 04, 2017, 02:12:41 PM
Floor, I did a very simple test. The 1st attached photo has 2 repelling magnets in a rectangular tube and you can see the one is lifted up by the repel force to a gap of about 2 inches.. I then placed the magnet stack in between the two magnets and the top magnet  does not drop down.

The second photo shows the magnets clamped in place with a magnet stack between them. When the top clamp is removed the top magnet goes up clearly meaning to me that the repel force is still there.

The magnet stack does move in and out very easily but it does not kill the repelling force which is what I wanted to use to do work.

I said nothing about the validity of your ideas. I only said my test did not show the repel being killed/shielded.

I wish someone else would do the same simple test and show me wrong.

Norman
Title: Re: Magnet force shield
Post by: webby1 on February 04, 2017, 04:24:11 PM
Webby1 if you look at a recent video Floor posted it clearly shows the force to remove and reinsert the shield magnet is zero "IF" the other magnets are properly aligned.  If they are off by only a few degrees then there will be some force either repelling the shield magnet or attracting the shield magnet.

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x59r978

Respectfully,
Carroll

Absolutely,, in the preferred condition you can have many such things so long as there are no other considerations.

I liked the non preferred part being included,, that shows to me an honest investigation with a curious mind.
Title: Re: Magnet force shield
Post by: Floor on February 05, 2017, 01:04:59 AM
A demonstration of the neutralization of the repelling force between two magnets (A and B)....
by creating a balance between both the attractions and repultions to a third magnet
which is placed between said  two magnets A andB).

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x5an8hd_rtangsld2_tech

floor
Title: Re: Magnet force shield
Post by: Floor on February 05, 2017, 02:04:23 AM
@Webby1   and   citfta

Thanks for your inputs.  Yes I'm committed to doing good science.

Although things have gotten much better than they once were here at O.U......

Once bitten twice shy.

I'm still sometimes in too much of a defensive mode, here (others are as well I think).
Many trolls are highly knowledgeable, and effective.
A two week long multi troll siege on ones topic is not much fun.

I prefer to keep my topics available to the non expert ( as I am non expert myself).
This presents its own kinds of  difficulties.

A lot of non expert people don't get it that science's methods are so that we might
arrive at the facts / truth.

I welcome expert advice, expertly, non expert presented. smile

best wishes
floor
Title: Re: Magnet force shield
Post by: dieter on February 05, 2017, 08:37:07 PM
Hi Floor, haven't been here for a while. Good to see you're on to something.

If you consider polar attraction/repulsion and field alignement as two seperate forces then this may indeed open up many "nonconservative" opportunities.

For instance the angular alignement force or torque generated when you try to push together two magnets with parallel poles, is defined by their strenght. If you allow the magnet to twist only by 90 deg., then you can pull these magnets appart without force, other than to overcome gravity, where the mentioned torque is not dependant on or linked to the physical weight of the magnet, in fact it may be much stronger.

Probably I misunderstood "TD", but I see a potential there. In both, shielding (tho not in the simple way some think) and torque versus attraction discrepancy.
Regards
Title: Re: Magnet force shield
Post by: Floor on February 06, 2017, 04:04:29 PM
@Dieter

Yes, long time no see.  Good to hear from you.

TD stands for "twist drive".  That original  experiment / design led to an
understanding, which allowed things to evolve into what I call the "pass through versions".

All though the two designs may seem almost unrelated... the underlying
cause of the differences between the work in and work out are the same reasons.

Its something of a contradiction in terms.... to call on over unity device inefficient, but  if
I compare the original "TD" design to the "pass through versions", that word is what
I'm left with.

There are  lots and lots of drawings / descriptions on the (related topics).  All of these recent
presentations have been done on the fly, so there are  plenty of mistakes and misstatements
in those topics.  Some of them remain unaddressed, sorry.

The forum member GoToLuc did a really great set of presentations, and we shared in
some of the most recent discoveries./ co discoveries.

I left the math / force integration and explicit / precise measurements behind at a certain
point in time, just so I could focus on design evolution.  I realize that another round
of precise measurements should to be forth coming.

Those related topics are listed (above some where) in this topic.

regards
floor
Title: Re: Magnet force shield
Post by: dieter on February 07, 2017, 11:09:33 PM
Yes I've seen those vids by GotoLuc (tho I frequently fall asleep due to his voice, but that is an other issue).

As you seem to be into magnetic shielding, I'd be glad if you take a look at my shielding challenge in my "Searching for Buddy..." thread, tho, no strings attached etc. ^^
kr
Title: Re: Magnet force shield
Post by: dieter on February 09, 2017, 08:44:11 PM
Maybe we can continue this topic on a general level about all aspects and findings about shielding.

I am currently confronted with that, once again ^^

Well isn't it that we all wish we had a shield that shields, but is not ferromagneticly attracted by the magnet it should shield? Not only because of the huge losses by the coghing.

So that is on mY wishlist. But how to achieve it. Let's see. Probably I could use several layers, alternating thick diamagnetic layer, thin ferrogagnetic layer, and by doing so, compensate the attraction. Only diamagnetics are very week, at least the available materials.

What diamagnetics do we have anyway? I got some pyrolytic graphite here, is there something better?
Title: Re: Magnet force shield
Post by: conradelektro on February 09, 2017, 09:28:27 PM
Yes I'm committed to doing good science.

Once bitten twice shy.

I'm still sometimes in too much of a defensive mode, here (others are as well I think).
Many trolls are highly knowledgeable, and effective.
A two week long multi troll siege on ones topic is not much fun.

I prefer to keep my topics available to the non expert ( as I am non expert myself).
This presents its own kinds of  difficulties.

I welcome expert advice, expertly, non expert presented. smile

Sinc you are committed to doing good science, I dare to present some good science about magnetic shielding:

http://www.magnetic-shield.com/pdf/how_do_magnetic_shields_work.pdf (http://www.magnetic-shield.com/pdf/how_do_magnetic_shields_work.pdf)

I cite from this document: "Magnetic shielding materials re-direct a magnetic field so it lessens the field's influence on the item being shielded. Shielding does not eliminate or destroy magnetic fields, nothing does."

http://www.magnetic-shield.com/pdf/will_magnetic_shield_block_the_fields_effects.pdf (http://www.magnetic-shield.com/pdf/will_magnetic_shield_block_the_fields_effects.pdf)

I cite from the document: "There is no known material that blocks magnetic fields without itself being attracted to the magnetic force. Magnetic fields can only be redirected, not created or removed."

There you find many good articles:

I hope you are not offended by some real science. You may call me troll, but you should read good science. It might help you to avoid years of useless work. Sorry for my trolling. I may look like an attack, but my intention is charitable.

I always hope for good arguments against well known science. But since I read the OU Forums I only have seen childish misconceptions. And the reason for this stupidity is because the "inventors" have not read the most simple science books or articles. One has to know what is allready known before going beyond.

Title: Re: Magnet force shield
Post by: gotoluc on February 09, 2017, 10:07:23 PM
I've seen those vids by GotoLuc (tho I frequently fall asleep due to his voice, but that is an other issue).

Hey, maybe you've found a new use for my videos!

Doctors could use them to treat sleep deprivation ;D

Luc

Title: Re: Magnet force shield
Post by: dieter on February 09, 2017, 10:10:07 PM
Well, Conrad, I've been there may years ago. But the simple matter of truth is that there's more to it, things beyond the standard teachings and simplifications for economical reasons.

You can shield a magnet with an other magnet in repulsion mode, that will no longer attract it. A combination of both can nullify that force. And that goes for both sides of the shield, independently. Then there are also diamagnetics, some new nanotube materials with cpmpetitive strengths may be soon available.

Yes, what goes in must come out, however, there may be a way to sneak out.
Title: Re: Magnet force shield
Post by: dieter on February 09, 2017, 10:17:04 PM
[/font]Hey, maybe you've found a new use for my videos!Doctors could use them to treat sleep deprivation ;D  Luc
[/font]
They're totally useful and prescription free ^^ But seriously I like your videos a lot. So, this wasn't meant disrespectful.
Title: Re: Magnet force shield
Post by: gotoluc on February 09, 2017, 10:40:00 PM

Sinc you are committed to doing good science, I dare to present some good science about magnetic shielding:

http://www.magnetic-shield.com/pdf/how_do_magnetic_shields_work.pdf (http://www.magnetic-shield.com/pdf/how_do_magnetic_shields_work.pdf)

I cite from this document: "Magnetic shielding materials re-direct a magnetic field so it lessens the field's influence on the item being shielded. Shielding does not eliminate or destroy magnetic fields, nothing does."

http://www.magnetic-shield.com/pdf/will_magnetic_shield_block_the_fields_effects.pdf (http://www.magnetic-shield.com/pdf/will_magnetic_shield_block_the_fields_effects.pdf)

I cite from the document: "There is no known material that blocks magnetic fields without itself being attracted to the magnetic force. Magnetic fields can only be redirected, not created or removed."

There you find many good articles:

I hope you are not offended by some real science. You may call me troll, but you should read good science. It might help you to avoid years of useless work. Sorry for my trolling. I may look like an attack, but my intention is charitable.

I always hope for good arguments against well known science. But since I read the OU Forums I only have seen childish misconceptions. And the reason for this stupidity is because the "inventors" have not read the most simple science books or articles. One has to know what is allready known before going beyond.

Let me just remind everyone that for more then 100 years those who have learned "good science" have not come up with anything new to replace fossil fuel.

It's also a shame that the established "good science" can't even explain electricity, gravity or magnetism after studying it for more then a century.

It continues to fascinate me how those who claim "good science" can keep their head up so high even if they fail to explain the above three effects.

I just don't get it!... could it be they want us to be like them so we can also fail?

Regards

Luc
Title: Re: Magnet force shield
Post by: gotoluc on February 09, 2017, 10:43:40 PM

They're totally useful and prescription free ^^ But seriously I like your videos a lot. So, this wasn't meant disrespectful.

Yes, I know and why I added a smiley face

Regards

Luc
Title: Re: Magnet force shield
Post by: conradelektro on February 09, 2017, 11:15:16 PM
Let me just remind everyone that for more then 100 years those who have learned "good science" have not come up with anything new to replace fossil fuel.

It's also a shame that the established "good science" can't even explain electricity, gravity or magnetism after studying it for more then a century.

It continues to fascinate me how those who claim "good science" can keep their head up so high even if they fail to explain the above three effects.

I just don't get it!... could it be they want us to be like them so we can also fail?

Yes, you are right "good science" does not know most of the world, but that is not a secret and every "good scientist" knows the very narrow limits.

But have you ever seen a good answer to your big questions in any of the OU forums or in any of the OU books and articles?

I have nothing against looking for new answers, but please do not announce OU or anything new before you really have it. The so called "inventors" in the OU forums always claim something without delivering anything useful. The only things I ever saw were unsubstantiated claims and most of them were pretty stupid, fodder for wishful thinkers.

So for once please deliver or be humble enough to admit that you have no answer either. I really do not like claims which are not supported by facts. Words cause warm air or take up space in a useless post but never generate energy.

You may wish, dream, hope or believe whatever you like. But all this is useless without facts. Please do not mix dreams and facts. The result is nonsense.

Title: Re: Magnet force shield
Post by: dieter on February 09, 2017, 11:31:16 PM
I have to say, trough the various failures of me and others I have learnt much more than from the textbooks. I agree, none should sell (figuratively or literalry) a theory as a working prototype.

It is true that there is real junk science in this field. The whishful thinking followers are naive and have to learn their lesson.

But the fact that the deceivers lie does not automaticly mean everything else is true, such as the statement "there is no free lunch". The whole universe is one free lunch, waiting for being harvested.
Title: Re: Magnet force shield
Post by: gotoluc on February 09, 2017, 11:41:02 PM
Yes, you are right "good science" does not know most of the world, but that is not a secret and every "good scientist" knows the very narrow limits.

But have you ever seen a good answer to your big questions in any of the OU forums or in any of the OU books and articles?

I have nothing against looking for new answers, but please do not announce OU or anything new before you really have it. The so called "inventors" in the OU forums always claim something without delivering anything useful. The only things I ever saw were unsubstantiated claims and most of them were pretty stupid, fodder for wishful thinkers.

So for once please deliver or be humble enough to admit that you have no answer either. I really do not like claims which are not supported by facts. Words cause warm air or take up space in a useless post but never generate energy.

You may wish, dream, hope or believe whatever you like. But all this is useless without facts. Please do not mix dreams and facts. The result is nonsense.

We are on the same page. I also dislike all the BS claims going around and try to avoid getting involved in such things. Much of my research are my own ideas. So I can only talk about my own experiments and feel over the years I've tried to do the best of my ability to build and test ideas and devices I put forward with measurement data.
If I make a claim that becomes proven wrong I do admit my error and correct the details provided through video or forum topic.

Have a look at the my newest device I've built and presently testing at this time: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oUlDMY1iE5A (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oUlDMY1iE5A)

Regards

Luc
Title: Re: Magnet force shield
Post by: conradelektro on February 10, 2017, 12:26:02 AM

Have a look at the my newest device I've built and presently testing at this time: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oUlDMY1iE5A (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oUlDMY1iE5A)

Regards, Luc

@Luc,

I think that you have to take time into consideration. If you want a self turning machine, you have to do "work", to apply "force" is not enough. Force has to be applied longer than zero seconds in order to do work (something useful).

========= this post is wrong from here on =============

work = force * time      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Work_(physics (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Work_(physics))

So, here comes my reasoning (why your measurement is inclomplete and why therefore your conclusion is wrong):

Yes, there is about 500 gramms force in the linear direction (lets call it fl)
Yes, there is about 300 gramms force in the rotary direction (lets call it fr)

But one has to know how long ("time") each "force" has to be applied in order to do the neccesary "work". "Work" is what has to be compared.

I have not figured out yet how you could incorpoarte a "time" measurement in your (very nicely crafted) machine.

One has to find:

tl = time neccesary to do the linear movement
tr = time necessary to do the roation

And then you can ask the real question (how much "work one needs to do" for each of the two movements, lets call it wl and wr)

Is             wl = fl * tl             smaller, equal or larger than         wr = fr * tr             ?

P.S.: Force is nice but you have to apply it for some time in order to do useful work! (Basic physics as tought in high school. But may be the oil industry has bought all schools and this standard science could be wrong. Or I am a troll paid by the men in black.)
Title: Re: Magnet force shield
Post by: dieter on February 10, 2017, 12:43:34 AM
I think you can exchange Time by Distance.

Whether you move it slowly or fast, it doesn't matter if the distance is the same. 1 bucket of water, brought from A to B, that is work, without a boss behind your back, bothering you, not to make lunch break of course.
Title: Re: Magnet force shield
Post by: conradelektro on February 10, 2017, 01:10:03 AM

I think you can exchange Time by Distance.

Whether you move it slowly or fast, it doesn't matter if the distance is the same. 1 bucket of water, brought from A to B, that is work, without a boss behind your back, bothering you, not to make lunch break of course.

======= this post is wrong ===========

Sorry, you can not exchange distance and time. This is the error done by Luc in his video (said in other words).

It is very important how much time is needed to move something over a certain distance. Try it yourself. You need much more work (please do not confuse work with force) to move a one kilo stone ten meters in one second than to move a one kilo stone only one meter in a second. You need exactly ten times more work. And to move one kilo over ten meters in one second of course also needs a bigger force than to move one kilo only over one meter in one second. The crucial point is the "one second". Longer or shorter distance in the same amount of time.

You can do with the same force of 1 kilo:

- one kilo over one meter in one second, the work is f * 1 second = 1 * 1 = 1
- one kilo over ten meters in ten seconds, the work is f * 10 seconds = 1 * 10 = 10

Or you can have f1 = 1 kilo and f2 = 10 kilo then:

- the work to move one kilo over one meter in one second is 1 * 1 = 1 (f1 * 1 second)
- the work to move one kilo over ten meters in one second is 10 * 1 = 10 (f2 * 1 second)

You should believe that "work = force * time" and absolutely not "work = force * distance". The time component is all important to compute work.

Time is yuge and total loosers who confuse time and distance or force and work, to say it like Donald Trump.

Title: Re: Magnet force shield
Post by: conradelektro on February 10, 2017, 01:45:00 AM
O.k., I am the total looser, because I confused "work" and "power".

Right, to compute work, the distance is important. It is work = (force * distance). And therfore the work was computed correctly.

But the power was not taken into consideration.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_(physics (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_(physics))

Power is the amount of energy consumed per unit time.

So, to compute the power of each movement (linear or rotary) one has to take time into consideration.

One has to know  (power = work / time), in other words one has to know the time for each movement in order to come up with the neccesary power for each movement. And then the two powers have to be compared.

So, the result of Luc needs a time component in order to do a useful comparison.

I leave my to wrong post above as they are. It allows the OU-believers to make fun of me which will produce OU.

Title: Re: Magnet force shield
Post by: dieter on February 10, 2017, 02:48:43 AM
I think power is not a useful unit here, because we want to know about energy. Excluding for now accelleration and deaccelleration, assuming we can recover or nullify these by a spring.

Work <= Energy, or at unity Work=Energy, as far as I see. Comparing work A and B seems legit to me.
Title: Re: Magnet force shield
Post by: Cairun on February 10, 2017, 04:00:26 AM
Message deleted...
Title: Re: Magnet force shield
Post by: Cairun on February 10, 2017, 04:39:29 AM
Floor,

You may already know this, but I will share it anyway.
This stems from your video http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x5an8hd_rtangsld2_tech (http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x5an8hd_rtangsld2_tech) about having to shift the shield magnet down slightly to achieve a "shielding" effect.

I did a few FEMM simulations of your concept and found that if the repelling magnets are vertically centered on the shield magnet then the repelling magnets will
experience a force in the horizontal direction(X direction in FEMM simulation).  As Dieter suggested, this is due to the attraction force being greater than the repelling force for two magnets. The attached pictures(first 3 pictures) show the measurements of the forces acting on both repelling magnets and the shield magnets(the names of the files tell you which magnet is being measured) with the repelling magnets vertically centered on the shield magnet.

The second set of 3 pictures show the force measurement on the magnets with the repelling magnets shifted up/down to balance the attraction and repulsion forces which effectively gets rid of the force experienced by the repelling magnets.
I believe in order for the shield magnet to not have a cogging point it is crucial to shift the repelling magnets up/down to balance the attraction and repulsion force.

In conclusion, if the repelling magnets are shifted up/down correctly then the shield magnet effectively experiences no force going in between the two repelling magnets.

Anyway, please keep up the good work,

Alex
Title: Re: Magnet force shield
Post by: Cairun on February 10, 2017, 04:43:13 AM
FEMM files attached.  To use change the .txt extension to .fem.
Title: Re: Magnet force shield
Post by: Floor on February 10, 2017, 08:31:59 AM
@cairun

thanks

I know the principle is sound.  Any need to fine tune the magnet positions,
is not a major obstacle.

I got effective shielding ... (while the shield magnet was nearly centered)
when I achieved a more precise shield magnet positioning  (but off camera).

regards
floor
Title: Re: Magnet force shield
Post by: conradelektro on February 10, 2017, 01:23:44 PM
I think power is not a useful unit here, because we want to know about energy. Excluding for now accelleration and deaccelleration, assuming we can recover or nullify these by a spring.

Work <= Energy, or at unity Work=Energy, as far as I see. Comparing work A and B seems legit to me.

Time is yuge, it's true, make  T I M E  great again, it will be great! T I M E first, T I M E first. Work without time, total looser, no power or energy.

It is very important how long you do some work. If you do some work for 1 hour it is less energy than doing the work of for two hours.

If your lamp uses 8 Watt, it is meaningless before you switch it on. Only once you switch it on for one hour it will consume 8 Watt-Hours, 8 Watt of power consumed for one hour.

The power company does not charge for Watt, it charges you for Watt-Hours. And this is true, so true.

Title: Re: Magnet force shield
Post by: conradelektro on February 10, 2017, 02:19:56 PM
Luc’s machine https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oUlDMY1iE5A (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oUlDMY1iE5A) is great, very ingenious (and I really mean it, it really is amazingly exciting).

I cite from his video, the complete cycle needs:

540 grams work linear
336 grams work rotary

Now time comes in. For how long is Luc applying this work.  We need work-hours (not only work) or work-seconds in order to calculate energy expenditure or energy production.

Remark: Work alone is meaningless. One has to do work for some time to produce something. Your work might well be excellent but it does not help if you do it for zero hours. And it will be worth more (will produce more power or energy) if you do it for two hours instead of only for one hour.

I want to propose a very simple experiment which Luc could do easily with his very nice machine:

-          Luc turns the wheel of his machine continuously in a leisurely way, just easy, no hast. (It does not matter that it will not really be a constant turning rate in a strict theoretical sense. As continuous as he manages without stressing himself and without overburdening the mechanics of his machine.)

-          Luc will put in continuously a work of 336 grams.

-          But the output of his machine, the movement of the sledge (the linear movement) will not be continuous. The sledge will rapidly move away from the wheel and then it will rest for a moment. Then the sledge will rapidly move towards the wheel and will again rest for a moment. And so on.

-          So, the input of 336 grams of work is continuous, but the output of 540 grams of work is intermittent.  Well, you see, it now depends on how long the sledge is at rest.

-          Let’s assume that Luc is turning his machine in a way that a full cycle takes one second. So he will put in 336 Gram-Seconds. The energy or power he needs will be 336 grams per second.

-          But he does only get out 540 grams for 0.62 seconds because the sledge only moves 0.62 seconds (each cycle) and will put out energy or power only as long as it moves (not when it rests).

Remark: Why do I know that the sledge only moves for 0.62 seconds (for every second of movement of the wheel) in my example above? Well, I know that input and output of an ideal machine (no friction, no heat losses) will be equal. And therefore 336 * 1 = x * 540, which means that time x is 336/540 = 0.62

But you do not have to believe my calculation (because you probably want to believe in OU). You only have to admit that Luc’s (really nice and well-crafted machine) needs a continuous input and gives only an intermittent output. That should speed up your brain and make you believe in time instead of OU. 336 grams of continuous input can well equal 540 grams of intermittent output (power wise or energy wise). To do the time measurements will be tricky and needs photoelectric sensors and an oscilloscope. You should believe in time measurements when talking about power or energy (work has to be done for some time to produce power or energy).

Title: Re: Magnet force shield
Post by: norman6538 on February 10, 2017, 02:54:47 PM
The test method I prefer to use would be.

1. drive the input with a falling weight on a rope like the kookoo clock.

2. lift a weight with the output work available and then calculate
the weight x distance in and the weight x distance out and NOBODY
HAS ANY ARGUMENT ABOUT MEASUREMENTS BEING WRONG.

Its all there right in front of your eyes.  My pendulum that travels higher than
its dropped point is such an example - its all visible - no measurements required.

Norman
Title: Re: Magnet force shield
Post by: gotoluc on February 10, 2017, 04:44:40 PM

Lets look at a test device which can test your distance time beliefs.

Test device parts needed:
A DC electric motor which has a flywheel attached to its shaft and use of photo switch to turn the motor on and off.

First test:
We attach a scale to the outer circumference of the flywheel and adjust the current to the motor so it can pull 34 grams. Then we adjust the photo switch to power the motor 110 mm distance of the flywheel outer circumference. We note of the RPM in this condition.

Second test:
We attach a scale to the outer circumference of the flywheel and adjust the current to the motor so it can pull 538 grams. Then we adjust the photo switch to power the motor 11 mm distance of the flywheel outer circumference. We note of the RPM in this condition.

If your belief is correct, the RPM should be greater on the first test compered to the second test, correct?

Regards

Luc

But you do not have to believe my calculation (because you probably want to believe in OU).

Please note, I have already stated that I need true measurement data to believe a device is OU. I do not just believe a device is OU until I have the measurement data to prove it or the device is running on its own and I can witness it. So please stop judging me that I just want to believe in OU as I have made no claims of OU.
Stick only to what has been presented and keep your personal opinions out.
You should know this to be the correct scientific approach.
Title: Re: Magnet force shield
Post by: dieter on February 10, 2017, 05:40:17 PM
Yeah TIME, and loosers, right.

Forget about time. It's a fog granade. Conrad just seems to insist on being correct, although already being prooved being wrong, which he temporarily agreed with.

With your bicycle you can drive with a high or low gear from town A to town B. If you dive with little force, it takes less force over a longer period of time, if you dive fast it takes more force over a shorter period of time. Total energy used is eighter time * force OR distance * force. Every discussion about this subject seems like good ol merry go round to me.

furthermore, rotational vs straight push is of little meaning since the Radius of the wheel is really big.

What is still a question is how the 11mm push is measured over that distance, with the wheels' magnet aligned in the center, or with it passing by.
Title: Re: Magnet force shield
Post by: conradelektro on February 10, 2017, 05:57:18 PM
Lets look at a test device which can test your distance time beliefs.

Test device parts needed:
A DC electric motor which has a flywheel attached to its shaft and use of photo switch to turn the motor on and off.

First test:
We attach a scale to the outer circumference of the flywheel and adjust the current to the motor so it can pull 34 grams. Then we adjust the photo switch to power the motor 110 mm distance of the flywheel outer circumference. We note of the RPM in this condition.

Second test:
We attach a scale to the outer circumference of the flywheel and adjust the current to the motor so it can pull 538 grams. Then we adjust the photo switch to power the motor 11 mm distance of the flywheel outer circumference. We note of the RPM in this condition.

If your belief is correct, the RPM should be greater on the first test compered to the second test, correct?

Luc,

I can not answer this question just like that, I probably make an error. And I do not want to put more work into this, I lost already too much T I M E.

Title: Re: Magnet force shield
Post by: conradelektro on February 10, 2017, 06:02:52 PM
Yeah TIME, and loosers, right.
Forget about time. It's a fog granade. Conrad just seems to insist on being correct, although already being prooved being wrong, which he temporarily agreed with.

With your bicycle you can drive with a high or low gear from town A to town B. If you dive with little force, it takes less force over a longer period of time, if you dive fast it takes more force over a shorter period of time. Total energy used is eighter time * force OR distance * force. Every discussion about this subject seems like good ol merry go round to me.

furthermore, rotational vs straight push is of little meaning since the Radius of the wheel is really big.

What is still a question is how the 11mm push is measured over that distance, with the wheels' magnet aligned in the center, or with it passing by.

An eight Watt lamp switched on 2 hours needs the double power or energy than being switched on only 1 hour.

8 Watt switched on 2 hours is 16 Watt-Hours.

8 Watt switched on 1 hour is 8 Watt-Hours.

8 Watt switched on 57,3 hours is 458,4 Watt-Hours. (Really difficult?)

Please, please, please, you may call me whatever you want, but please say that this is correct. This is not a fog granade, it is the simple truth.

Title: Re: Magnet force shield
Post by: gotoluc on February 10, 2017, 06:05:11 PM
What is still a question is how the 11mm push is measured over that distance, with the wheels' magnet aligned in the center, or with it passing by.

The answer is posted at the correct topic of discussion: http://overunity.com/16987/td-replications/msg499732/#msg499732

Sorry Floor for the off topic posts

Regards

Luc
Title: Re: Magnet force shield
Post by: dieter on February 10, 2017, 06:20:06 PM
Yeah, Floor, sorry. I was lured into this off topic stuff ^^
Just this: Conrad, face it, your lamp comparation is silly. Light a lamp for an hour, the light and heat energy output will be half of two hours, no matter how fast you throw the lamp out of the window. Or something.

So lets get back to shielding, that I am personally very interested ATM. Thanks Floor, very interesting.

The problem I am currently confronted with is that a shield will adopt a polar axis that is aligned to its shape, usually 90deg to the magnets axis. In my particular design this leads to the undesired sideeffect, that an approaching shield is repelled by the coils reactive field:
pm:
N
S
shield:
<<<N===S
coil:
N
S (due to decreasing primary fieldstrength by progressive shielding)

Which I try to overcome with a big, ultrathin PM at the bottom of the shield, facing NS downward. Unfort. I didn't find useful magnets on ebay, maybe see also my "Buddy" Thread.

Title: Re: Magnet force shield
Post by: conradelektro on February 10, 2017, 06:31:16 PM
Light a lamp for an hour, the light and heat energy output will be half of two hours, no matter how fast you throw the lamp out of the window. Or something.

Exactly what I am saying, nothing more an nothing less. It matters whether you switch on the light one hour or only half an hour. This is my point and you repeat it like I said something else. Strange!

And this is not off topic. It is very important what one compares when calculating input and output POWER (or energy).

FORCE

WORK = FORCE * DISTANCE

POWER = WORK over TIME

And one compares output-POWER and input-POWER (not FORCE and NOT WORK).

I know, some do not want to listen, so be it.

Title: Re: Magnet force shield
Post by: conradelektro on February 10, 2017, 06:44:46 PM
Please note, I have already stated that I need true measurement data to believe a device is OU. I do not just believe a device is OU until I have the measurement data to prove it or the device is running on its own and I can witness it. So please stop judging me that I just want to believe in OU as I have made no claims of OU.
Stick only to what has been presented and keep your personal opinions out.
You should know this to be the correct scientific approach.

Luc, you seem to understand what proof of OU means. I am sorry, that you were the victim of my offhand remark.

I was talking to Floor who steady fast claims OU. And I have the feeling that Dieter also claims OU and many others.

My only point:

One has to compare input-POWER and output-POWER, which brings TIME into the equation.

One should not compare FORCE and also not WORK.

WORK has to be done for some TIME to generate POWER (or energy).

I made an error last night, which is confusing. But my point now is crystal clear and the truth.

See: http://overunity.com/17097/magnet-force-shield/msg499715/#msg499715 (http://overunity.com/17097/magnet-force-shield/msg499715/#msg499715) (concerning POWER versus WORK, TIME is of the essence)

Also see: http://overunity.com/17097/magnet-force-shield/msg499638/#msg499638 (concerning a magnetic shield)

This is not my opinion, I am stating facts which nobody with a bit of brain will deny.

Title: Re: Magnet force shield
Post by: dieter on February 10, 2017, 06:59:29 PM
Title: Re: Magnet force shield
Post by: Floor on February 20, 2017, 08:33:15 PM

Here is my most recent video.  It demonstrates the nearly free rotation of
a ceramic magnet while that magnet is immersed within the field of six other magnets.

@           http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x5ckdkn

Also

The video demonstrates the failure of one of my designs which was intended  to
shield one magnet from a second magnet by use of a third magnet / magnets.

Please also note that while this form of shielding was not effective....

Both Gotoluc and my self  have had ... and clearly demonstrate very effective
neutralization of magnetic force actions in several videos.

...

Scientific convention holds that some form of magnetic shielding occurs between  magnetic domains within
permanent magnets.

These magnetic shield regions within a permanent magnet are given the name "Bloch walls".

I don't know....but
It seems probable, that the shielding provided by Bloch walls has the same kinds of limitations...
in terms of vectors of right angle directions of approach .....  in relation to specific polar alignments...
which we have encountered in our permanent magnet experiments.

But also, I am in the early stages of / developing a model for a different shielding method,
which is based on a model / modification of Bloch wall shielding.

I have nothing to present of that new model at this time, as it is incomplete.

thanks all
floor
Title: Re: Magnet force shield
Post by: gotoluc on February 21, 2017, 12:08:37 AM
Thanks floor for making a video demo. I always helps (me anyways) to better grasp your ideas.

Luc
Title: Re: Magnet force shield
Post by: dieter on February 21, 2017, 03:37:00 AM

You're probably given up too quickly, Floor.

Use Femm for shield tests, saves time and money.

I for myself found just another loophole. I would like to tell it, but usually being carefully ignored, this forum makes me only depressed, so wish you all the best Floor.
Title: Re: Magnet force shield
Post by: Low-Q on February 21, 2017, 10:12:28 PM
I've used FEMM alot myself. Also done practical experiments that confirms simulations in FEMM. There is only one thing I miss about FEMM and that is the 3.rd dimension. Take a ring-magnet that is polarized radially. If you make such a magnet in FEMM, using for example 36 magnets, one for each 10 degree, in a ring, and polarize everyone pointing north towards the center, FEMM does not show any useful flux-lines, and does simulate that there is next to no attraction to a magnetic material such as an iron rod, but a practical experiment does for sure influence any magnetic material.

Speaking of shields: A shield will steal that gain you want. It doesn't matter if the shield is iron or another magnet. It shields or guides the magnetism for a reason. If one could make a magnetic shield that isn't magnetic, it would work, but that kind of material is hard to find. I don't know of any matarial with those properties.

Vidar
Title: Re: Magnet force shield
Post by: Floor on February 22, 2017, 12:46:31 AM
Thanks

Im looking forward to exploreing femm.
floor
Title: Re: Magnet force shield
Post by: Floor on March 10, 2017, 04:38:39 PM

I threw up..... a new video.
It shows an effective magnet shield in action.

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x5eg7kk_magnetshield-1_tech

As far as I'm concerned, this is all open source and public domain.
All in common...that's the only real over unity there is.
Thanks for every thing Luc.
Peace... Out
floor
Title: Re: Magnet force shield
Post by: Floor on March 10, 2017, 05:36:05 PM

note.. the two magnets that are glued together to make up a single larger shielding magnet,
are like poles on the same broad face as one another.  The are in mutual repusions at their edges.

Notice that in this last video, the shielding magnet sticks out
above the two stacks of magnets.

Magnet attractions and repulsion are not in all respects / situations equal in force.

When I flipped the shielding magnet over, reversed poles on ,  the device did not function as well.

That little bit of "stick out" by the shielding magnet, helps to balance the
attracting and repelling forces, I think.

floor
Title: Re: Magnet force shield
Post by: LibreEnergia on March 13, 2017, 12:19:07 AM
There is no such thing as a magnetic shield. If there was it would imply that a magnetic monopole exists and despite the best efforts, no such thing has ever been discovered.

Quite frankly you are wasting your time trying to arrange ANY combination of existing permanent or electro magnets and expecting to create magnetic shielding. You can determine the truth of this by using Noether's theorem. "For every differentiable symmetry of the action of a physical system has a corresponding conservation law".

Magnetism IS described by a 'differential symmetry'.  'Differentiable' implies that lines of magnetic potential have no inflection points. I.e. no matter how sharply the lines of magnetic force change direction it NEVER becomes a single sharp point.(as such a point would imply a monopole, which does not exist).

If you want to create OU using magnets, you'll have to devise a way to 'pipe the magnetic field into another non-physical dimension.. good luck with that. If could do that an OU motor would just be the start of some rather interesting (and dangerous) effects...
Title: Re: Magnet force shield
Post by: Zephir on March 13, 2017, 01:14:40 AM
Quote
If you want to create OU using magnets, you'll have to devise a way to 'pipe the magnetic field into another non-physical dimension.

This is actually a good insight, except that this additional dimension may not be completely non-physical (https://www.reddit.com/r/Physics_AWT/comments/5y7iye/free_energy_device_of_maxim_aliev/denqn5f), once we consider spreading of magnetic field within condensed phase instead of just vacuum. In this extent the Nassika's drive may be relevant (https://www.reddit.com/r/Physics_AWT/comments/5y7iye/free_energy_device_of_maxim_aliev/denqn5f/): this thruster supposedly works like the nozzle for magnetic field, where the superconductor serves just as a magnetic shield. And superconducting generator (http://www.freepatentsonline.com/7983726.html) of Andrew Abolafia could work as a Nassikas drive attached to a flywheel - or, well, sort of...

So I'd never say never: we can never know if some crazy idea cannot be crazy enough (https://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/n/nielsbohr102862.html) for being actually true.
Title: Re: Magnet force shield
Post by: Floor on March 13, 2017, 02:10:16 AM
@ LibreEnergia

Quote           from LibreEnergia
"There is no such thing as a magnetic shield. If there was it would imply that a magnetic monopole exists and despite the best efforts, no such thing has ever been discovered."
End Quote

LibreEnergia

Did you watch the video / videos ?  @  http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x5eg7kk_magnetshield-1_tech

Although you have not directly stated that I am presenting a "magnetic shield", you have as much as
done so in what your quoted statement (above) states.

I HAVE NOT USED THE PHRASE "MAGNETIC SHIELD" IN THIS TOPIC...
except to say that I have not used that phrase.

It may be, that there is no such thing as the MAGNETIC SHIELD you are thinking in terms of.

The devices presented in this topic, prevent action by magnetic forces,  by means of creating a balance between
attraction and repulsion.

They do not block the magnet energy, rather they prevent physical action by the magnets , in specific vectors
while allowing physical actions in another or others vectors.

Please be so kind as to understand the presented materials before commenting next.

best wishes
floor
Title: Re: Magnet force shield
Post by: LibreEnergia on March 13, 2017, 09:37:49 PM

Did you watch the video / videos ?  @  http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x5eg7kk_magnetshield-1_tech

Please be so kind as to understand the presented materials before commenting next.

Yes, I watched this, and it proved absolutely nothing.  I'll repeat my statement for clarity. "There is no such thing as a magnetic shield".

This includes arranging any static combination of permanent or electromagnets OR moving such an arrangement in a way to try and create a NET magnetic force for a system that cycles between two states. (as you are trying to achieve).

Title: Re: Magnet force shield
Post by: Floor on March 13, 2017, 11:10:07 PM
@LibreEnergia

I understand your agreement with convention.

Since you have insisted upon useing your own misleading phrase "magnetic shield"
and you did not respond in any detail to my clairifying statements theres no
conversation / discussion here.

Title: Re: Magnet force shield
Post by: Floor on March 18, 2017, 02:16:49 PM

Given below as 3 PNG files, are some details of the
interactions in the last video / link I posted

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x5eg7kk_magnetshield-1_tech

These interactions have also been detailed in various
arrangements in this and others of the related topics.

best wishes
floor
Title: Re: Magnet force shield
Post by: Floor on March 19, 2017, 02:57:11 PM
Here is a design for neutralizeing the magnetic force,
with an attraction based output.

These designs, devices and inventions are given into the public domiain.

note...since these are devices intended to give OU, one can reasonably assume they are
not previously pattented ?

floor
Title: Re: Magnet force shield
Post by: Floor on March 19, 2017, 03:05:08 PM
Note...

I hve not put this last design (shielding with attraction as output) on the bench for testing yet.

regasrds
floor
Title: Re: Magnet force shield
Post by: dieter on March 19, 2017, 03:20:59 PM
Thanks for sharing these very clear drawings. I've seen the vid, which is impressive. Also in the light of Luc's latest measurements, very promesing.

I wonder how would you implement the work cycle in a rotor, or are you preferring a piston design (which would be much simpler I guess)?
Title: Re: Magnet force shield
Post by: Floor on March 20, 2017, 03:12:03 AM
Hi Dieter

I'm still looking at the design @

http://overunity.com/17070/all-magnet-motor-td-based/

I have some of the materials for a test build.

I need to wet cut some ceramic magnets on
the diamond wheel.

Modify / cast some plastic gears (2 crown and 2 pinon gears)

But for now I'll stick with the linear motion sets.
...
my  projects

Installing some flooring (paid project).

I would like to do a full measurement set for Gotoluc's design (scaled down) ....
before doing measurements of any of my new designs.
But first I'll need to ...
detail / ask Luc to  check out  the magnet start and finish positions for that measurement process.

There is yet another 3 magnet interaction set I want to diagram.

I want to redo / finish the next section of the "Magnets Motion and Measurement"
book / topic...... how to integrate a magnet force that is changing with distance and
how to calculate the work done as joules and so on ................

regards
Title: Re: Magnet force shield
Post by: Floor on March 20, 2017, 03:19:44 AM

One more drawing for the attraction based output design....

thanks Dieter
floor
Title: Re: Magnet force shield
Post by: Zephir on March 22, 2017, 07:37:42 PM
Too bad that magnetic lines of force cannot be actually shielded permanently, only guided. Temporarily it's possible to achieve everything, but you must be pretty fast - faster than the speed of EM wave spreading in material given.
Title: Re: Magnet force shield
Post by: dieter on March 25, 2017, 02:08:11 AM
If I were about to measure the forces, I would first build a vertical version, containing a track for the shield magnet, sliding on soap or teflon. So the shield can be dropped in from above. Then the shield could also be suspended on a thread, hanging downd from a balance, containing a counterweight, so the gravitational weight of the shield can be reduced to eg. a few grams. Will it slide trough? How much weight is required. Adjustable track, so the optimal arrangement can be found. The push force of the stacks could be measured over a pulley. How much weight can it lift for the same distance?

Something like that.

Experimenting with a reluctance swith, I have just learned that iron "conducts" magnetism much better than a permanent magnet. You would think a PM in a gap of a core is inxreasing the permeability, but actually the opposite happens, esp. with eg Ferrite PM. Seemingly the can transport only a rather low magnetic strength, maybe limited by their own PM strength, way below saturated iron that easily reaches 2 Tesla.
Title: Re: Magnet force shield
Post by: dieter on March 25, 2017, 02:17:31 AM
Sorry about the typos. I can't edit it.
Title: Re: Magnet force shield
Post by: Floor on March 25, 2017, 06:14:34 AM
Quote from Zephir

"Too bad that magnetic lines of force cannot be actually shielded permanently, only guided. Temporarily it's possible to achieve everything, but you must be pretty fast - faster than the speed of EM wave spreading in material given."

End quote

@ Zepher

Even a helmet struck with a base ball bat does not actually shield the wearer's head. The force is only guided,
also  again
What does  faster have to do with this ?

thanks
floor
...
...
@ Dieter

Quote from Dieter

"If I were about to measure the forces, I would first build a vertical version, containing a track for the shield magnet, sliding on soap or teflon. So the shield can be dropped in from above. Then the shield could also be suspended on a thread, hanging downd from a balance, containing a counterweight, so the gravitational weight of the shield can be reduced to eg. a few grams. Will it slide trough? How much weight is required. Adjustable track, so the optimal arrangement can be found. The push force of the stacks could be measured over a pulley. How much weight can it lift for the same distance?

Something like that."

END QUOTE

I do it like this @

http://overunity.com/14311/work-from-2-magnets-19-output-2/msg487779/#msg487779
.............................................................................
.............................................................................

QUOTE FROM Dieter

Experimenting with a reluctance swith, I have just learned that iron "conducts" magnetism much better than a permanent magnet. You would think a PM in a gap of a core is inxreasing the permeability, but actually the opposite happens, esp. with eg Ferrite PM. Seemingly the can transport only a rather low magnetic strength, maybe limited by their own PM strength, way below saturated iron that easily reaches 2 Tesla.

END QUOTE

I started this topic in 2013 but never got back to it.  I decided to work with the magnets only/

http://overunity.com/13354/perm-magnet-only-core-with-iron-shell-motor-coil/msg354318/#msg354318

regards
floor
Title: Re: Magnet force shield
Post by: dieter on March 25, 2017, 08:29:45 PM
That's some intetesting plans there, reads like a patent.

Of course, your test installation doesn't require my advice. When it comes to testing, I really use what's at hand, like wood, cardboard, glue and of course sticky tape. As long as it does the job.

But I wish I had the time, patience and resources to do that like in your pictures.
Title: Re: Magnet force shield
Post by: Zephir on March 25, 2017, 09:01:46 PM
Quote
I have just learned that iron "conducts" magnetism much better than a permanent magnet

This is logical and it's how the magnetization curve (http://info.ee.surrey.ac.uk/Workshop/advice/coils/mu/BH_iron.png) of ferromagnetic materials works. The permanent magnet operates at the upper side of saturation curve, when the material already stops to behave ferromagnetically.

Quote from: Floor
It's (hopefully) explained here (http://overunity.com/8341/joule-thief-101/msg502256/) up to some point.
Title: Re: Magnet force shield
Post by: norman6538 on March 26, 2017, 01:44:02 PM
Here is a design for neutralizeing the magnetic force,
with an attraction based output.

These designs, devices and inventions are given into the public domiain.

note...since these are devices intended to give OU, one can reasonably assume they are
not previously pattented ?

floor

I love the drawings and tested 2 of them but got some unexpected forces that
do not agree with the implications of the drawings and the video you posted
here http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x5eg7kk_magnetshield-1_tech

Anybody else have results to report?

Norman
Title: Re: Magnet force shield
Post by: Floor on March 26, 2017, 09:04:43 PM
@ Norman6538

Vague statements containing too little information (almost none and ....probably not even
10 % enough info) for me to really respond to, except.....

I'm not looking to play a masochistic / daddy role here.   I don't feel sorry for you! I don't belive
you need my help.  I'm not fond of  passive agressive / victim games.

....................
QUOTE from Norman 6538

"I love the drawings and tested 2 of them but got some unexpected forces that
do not agree with the implications of the drawings and the video you posted
here "  @......

END QUOTE

" I love the drawings"

thanks......
...........................
" and tested 2 of them"

BS
I am totally doubtful that your    "tests"  (which are by the way, once again un-presented) have any where near to a
reasonable degree of  precision and / or are valid as tests.  Sorry but I have not     ever    seen 1 actual measurement
taken by    you and then presented     on this forum... ever.  Don't know that you haven't ever, but I see that,
once again you are stating that you have done measurements, but,  present neither the methods,  nor those
measurements.    Not good Norman...

This is what I keep objecting to   your doing   on my topics.   Hello ?
.....................
"but got some unexpected forces"

Which / what forces ?  no description is given by you, why ?

not "expected" by who ? you ?
..................................................
Can you define "force"... with out looking it up ?
.....................
"that do not agree with the implications of the drawings and the video you posted"

great ?  I'm not asking for yours any ones "agreement"  with any "implications" that I quote "drew, posted, videoed"...
.....................
Do it well and do it your self  ...  and please go away.
best wishes
floor
Title: Re: Magnet force shield
Post by: dieter on March 27, 2017, 01:50:35 AM
@Floor, I ran it trough femm, this might be interesting. First image is with no shield (set to be air), second with shield according to drawings. Asymetry is weird, may be caused by asymetric surrounding air section. Probably just ignore it. Third picture shows approaching shield.

From what I see, there is indeed a tendency to create an area of low flux density. The reason why may be the high amount of field diffusion and superimposed compensation with the shield.
Title: Re: Magnet force shield
Post by: Floor on March 27, 2017, 03:32:29 AM
@Dieter

I'm going to

1. measure the work done to slide the "force shielding magnet" INTO an in between the
repelling magnets position (an input), starting from a distance of around 1 1/2 inch away.

note this will be done while the two repelling magnets are
a.  at some distance from one another (that distance is undetermined at this time)
b.  with the force shielding magnet centered between the repelling magnets.
(an input)

2. measure the work done in sliding the force shielding magnet FROM a position of
in between the repelling magnets, (while the repelling magnets are about 1/32 inch from the
force shielding magnet,  each on their side)...... removing the force shielding magnet  TO
about 1 1/2 inch away (an input)

3. measure the work done to bring the repelling magnets to close (1/32 inch each) proximity to
the force shielding magnet (an input)

note this will be done while one of the repelling magnets is already in a close (1/32 inch)
proximity to the force shielding magnet.  Only one of the repelling magnets will be moved during this
measurement set.

4. measure the work done to close the gap between the repelling magnets, once the
force shielding magnet has been removed to its most distant position (an output
measured in reverse).
note  this closure is to a distance of the width of the shielding magnet plus 2/32 inch.

the starting width for this closure measurement is undetermined at this time.

floor
Title: Re: Magnet force shield
Post by: Floor on March 27, 2017, 03:38:07 AM
@ Dieter

thanks for the femm files.
..............
On that other topic.....I was practicing to write a pattent / still thinking that a pattent could
keep an design available to all.

floor
Title: Re: Magnet force shield
Post by: dieter on March 27, 2017, 04:10:14 AM
patents are costy, and not granted if already patented, and that research is a lot of work.

However, the patent design guide may be useful.

About femm, it is 2D and does not account for the high horizontal forces due to the flat shape of the stack parts. Femm also tends to see a stack as one single magnet, with a neutral zone in the center. Maybe I should add tiny airgaps between the stack layers. Did you try that, with spacers, eg. 1mm? What is that anyway, I chose "ceramic 8" in Femm.
Title: Re: Magnet force shield
Post by: Floor on March 27, 2017, 04:20:51 AM
@ Dieter

The idea to patent "that"... was several years ago.  I researched patenting in the U.S,
pretty thoroughly at that time.
.....................................................................
The magnet stacks are just an easy way for me to create / approximate a single magnet.
I think that they do a pretty good job of that, and that femm seeing a stack as a single
magnet is not problematic.
Title: Re: Magnet force shield
Post by: dieter on March 28, 2017, 10:32:23 PM
Just another idea I had: this whole measuring business has a complicating tendency. Often we end up, not knowing if our numbers actually are correct.

A simple work cycle setup could be easier. Although a rotation type seems tricky here.

I was thinking, two independent pistons, over pleuel turning a flywheel with gears each, in 90deg. to eachother, so they can be synched in the right timing. the sinusodial motion seems helpful for this effect. Stack piston opening space by being repelled, shield piston moves between, stack piston falls back with low force requirement, shield piston moves out without much force req., stack piston is repelled...

That would be for a repelling varation.

Stack puston could be "stereo" for both stacks.

I actually made gears out of wood (print on paper, glue on, saw, file...) with surprisingly low friction losses (compared to eg. a rubber belt).

By the size of your magnets, the gain should be capable of driving itself.

Fear of failure is still better than disbelief in the possibility of success. Edison needed 1000+ attempts for the lightbulb. Did anyone here actually try 1000 devices? And besides, this is big.
Title: Re: Magnet force shield
Post by: dieter on March 28, 2017, 10:49:03 PM
Actually, I didn't saw the gears, but drilled holes (table drill) and filed it mainly. That's quick. Punching the very centers for each hole with a loupe and a nail provides high precision when drilling. Hey, wood rocks ^^
Title: Re: Magnet force shield
Post by: Floor on March 28, 2017, 11:14:18 PM
@Dieter

It looks like Gotoluc is takeing some well derserved time off,
(at least from the builds in public ?).
..................................
..................................
My last presented shielding method, has proven once again to be ineffective.

Friction between the bottom of the repelled magnet stack and an epoxy residue
on the bench, facilitated an miss perseption of the of the shielding
alignment's effectiveness.  That effect is more appearant when viewing
the video than when one is actually manipulateing the magnets oneself.
..................................
..................................
User "Woopy's" observations of that "magnet shield" (on the TD replications) topic
were pretty much accurate.  (Thanks Woopy)

here   @    http://overunity.com/16987/td-replications/msg502305/#msg502305

Also credit is due user Norman6538 for his observations (on this topic) which may have been
the same / similar to Woopy's, although he did not eloquate them .

When I installed the repelled magnet stack onto my linear bearings / slideing unit
... boom ! .... no buneo ! .... so onward.
..................................
..................................
Your last FEMM files may have been more useful than I initially thought they would be.

They led me back toward,  a previously mentioned by me

"There is yet another 3 magnet interaction set I want to diagram."

That is the method I'll be putting up next ......but with full details / measurements compleated.

I like this one  a lot....although it's a little bit of a complex arrangrement....

Thanks
best wishes
floor
Title: Re: Magnet force shield
Post by: Floor on March 30, 2017, 02:14:34 AM
I have deleated my recent video "magnetshield-1" WHICH DID NOT WORK and

which was @  http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x5eg7kk_magnetshield-1_tech

best wishes
floor
Title: Re: Magnet force shield
Post by: Low-Q on March 30, 2017, 01:00:56 PM
I have deleated my recent video "magnetshield-1" WHICH DID NOT WORK and

which was @  http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x5eg7kk_magnetshield-1_tech (http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x5eg7kk_magnetshield-1_tech)

best wishes
floor
You might have an explanation why the magnetic shield didn't work.
I think it's important to take failures and turn them into education so others doesn't spend time doing the same mistake. You know how people are in this forum. Unmistakeable people, convinced they have found a solution to an impossible problem.
Title: Re: Magnet force shield
Post by: Floor on March 30, 2017, 08:49:25 PM

Here is the "yet another 3 magnet interaction" in video.

@                    http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x5gqomq_yetanothermagset_tech

No measurments yet either.

floor
Title: Re: Magnet force shield
Post by: Floor on March 30, 2017, 09:09:23 PM
@ Low-Q

Nothing risked ..... no failures
Nothing risked..... nothing gained.
I have the freedom to fail and to succede.

floor
Title: Re: Magnet force shield
Post by: Floor on March 31, 2017, 04:16:38 AM
@Cairun

I didn't miss the FEMM files you posted.  But I did miss
responding to them.  Sorry.  Better late than never.
Yes it seems that offset is necessary   as ... and for   the reasons
you have stated .... and as the FEMM files seem to confirm.
thanks
its appreciated
floor
Title: Re: Magnet force shield
Post by: dieter on April 02, 2017, 12:59:45 AM
When you watch the full shield femm render above, note the shield area has two sections: one many fieldlines, one few. Few means repelling, many is attracting.

So they cancel eachother out. It does indeed shield. But the question is, how much force is required to move the shield in and out.

kr
Title: Re: Magnet force shield
Post by: Floor on April 02, 2017, 03:40:07 AM
@Dieter

Odds are .... that

the convention that the magnets will give rise to a conservative
work interaction,  holds true under the above conditions.

work in = work out except for losses.

It remains that, the only interactions I have seen ...
that may not be.... are

1. the original TD
and I think also
2.  one variation of LaFont's pseudo solid stuff.

I just may do, a new measuring sets for the original TD interactions,
and see what I see in  light of what I've learned in the last few months.
Title: Re: Magnet force shield
Post by: dieter on April 02, 2017, 05:13:21 PM
Two things have been proven:

law of energy conservation is wrong. Many unexplicable energy sources discovered, such as Zero Point Energy, which describes a yet unknown energy source, that keeps helium liquid at zero degrees kelvin ( as per standard theory, it should be solid/frozen.

Second: mankind is selectively stupid and ignorant, esp. in Masses and within hierarchical doctrines... easily capable of missing a couple of things.

I think, while using the verified work of others is fine, one MUST disbelieve in socalled accepted belief. How can we say out=in-losses if science even remotely doesn't understand magnets.

Therefor this "uh, they might be right after all" in the back of ones head surely adds to failure and frustration. But this no free lunch attitude they indoctrinate rather religiously, is from a scientific point of view, simply wrong.

Before it's a miracle. After it's science.
Title: Re: Magnet force shield
Post by: Floor on April 05, 2017, 04:37:00 PM
@Dieter

It's interesting that....

of    ALL     of these projects in the last several months.....

"TD replications",

"magnetic force shield"
and
"all magnet motor (TD based)"

NOT ONE OF THEM is based upon the original twist drive design

No one has actually presented a  close replication of / presentation of
the Twist Drive design.

Lots of looking around at conservative interactions, but still no replication as of yet

Lumens experiments used neo magnets rather than ceramics and his presentation lacked
all the details of his parameters and of his methods used.  Other wise they were closer
to being a replication than any other "tests" were.

I've been all through it now, by  Looking at conventional interactions and finding
conventional results.. This including a working "magnet force shield" (non OU)
But effectively shielding nun the less.

It seems we are compelled to look into what does not work.... just perhaps
because the principles are familiar or known....

Why the TD works is unknown / speculative.... unfamiliar...

Pseudo Solid principle may be OU as well..

I see some similarity underlying each of those ..... (random to order)...

Below in a PDF file is user Gamma Ray burst's basic concept (as I understand it).
It.... to my knowledge remains unmeasured at this time !

Please find below  the attached "PS principle 6-2 PDF" file

regards
floor
Title: Re: Magnet force shield
Post by: Floor on April 06, 2017, 07:16:13 PM

A demonstration of a method wherein.... conservative magnet interaction sets give rise to Over Unity....
Through magnetic force shielding.

Please see the attached video below.

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x5hgqia_yetanothers-counterpart_tech

Keep on it guys.
thanks and regards
floor
Title: Re: Magnet force shield
Post by: dieter on April 07, 2017, 03:57:45 AM
Thanks. I get an error about in the middle of the vid, may be my browser.

That's the thing with replications. Sometimes variations accidently become improvement, although usually not, but still.
Title: Re: Magnet force shield
Post by: Floor on April 09, 2017, 07:49:14 AM
@Dieter

That video is not exactly somey kind of great revalation any way.
It doesn't pan out, as I see it.

Two systems with Three magnets each is too complicated, for me
to grasp with out first doing some diagrams.

Please see the attached PDF file below "MagnetForceShield 3x.pdf"

Looks to me like... my linking of two systems still ends up giving no net gain.

regards
floor
Title: Re: Magnet force shield
Post by: dieter on April 22, 2017, 02:36:19 PM
Floor, thanks for the pdf.

Cinsidering the thousands of PM experiments that were done in the past century in order to tap PMs, it is certainly not to be expected to be easy.

But the more we know about PMs, the likelier it gets that we're gonna find that little hidden passtrough.

If there is one at all. Which I believe. See, attaching a PM to a piece of iron gives netgain of zero, considering gain in attraction and loss at removal, right?

Then where in the world comes the energy from, that aligns the magnetic domains in the iron? This is work done, on a molecular scope. Twice, when aligning and when relaxing. I have nwver heard of any explanation where that energy comes from.

And that's just one example.

However, we must not allow us to feel obliged to work on this 24/7. The joy of research is to research when we are in the mood for it. It's not a duty.

kr
Title: Re: Magnet force shield
Post by: DeerSpotter on April 28, 2017, 06:00:29 PM
Updates on this? Anybody want to share any new discoveries on this topic?
Title: Re: Magnet force shield
Post by: Floor on May 02, 2017, 03:43:56 PM
@DeerSpotter

Some of these shielding methods worked, but  I did not find that any of
them resulted in over unity... neither do I now find any reasons why they
should have.

If you are a builder / do replications ?  you might consider
a replication of the experiment @

http://overunity.com/14311/work-from-2-magnets-19-output-2/msg388336/#msg388336

floor
Title: Re: Magnet force shield
Post by: Low-Q on May 06, 2017, 09:58:46 PM
Too bad it didn't worked out for you Floor. I honestly think the topic in the linked thread will lead to nothing but equilibrium too. There is allways something we don't consider that nature already knows.
However, I don't think you will give up chasing OU. Looking forward to see your future projects, even if I am a sceptic.

Vidar
Title: Re: Magnet force shield
Post by: Floor on March 01, 2018, 11:11:38 PM
Please find the following 2 attachments ......
"Magnet force shield 4.png    and    Magnet force shield 5.png"

Use the force neutralizing principles, illustrated by my drawings (in the previous parts of this topic),
in combination with a mechanical linkage (as described in the drawings attached below).

These designs and devices are given into the public domain.

best wishes
floor
Title: Re: Magnet force shield
Post by: norman6538 on March 02, 2018, 01:36:53 AM
If I understand what you are doing correctly you are balancing springs and
magnets and what I have found in many cases is all is good till you take power
out and then the balance is disturbed and a price has to be paid to return to
that balance.

Butch Lafonte did a lot with balanced setups that nulled the sticky spot but
he never did any measurements. I have done measurements and they have
OU but not enough.

It easy to get a magnet to do free work but then the mechanism has to be
reset so it can repeat that work and that require work. If that work is
less than the work out then you can get OU. But I have achieved OU but not
enough to do the switching to repeat a cycle. Its been my experience that it
takes 200%-300% extra to achieve that switching/reset process.

Best of Luck,
I really want to see permanent magnets do work.

Norman
Title: Re: Magnet force shield
Post by: Floor on March 02, 2018, 04:46:33 PM
Thanks Norman

With a force of attraction between the center magnet and ONE of the outer magnets....
while at the same time...
There is an equal repelling force between the inner magnet and the OTHER outer magnet...

The mechanical linkage illustrated..... will cause these two forces to total to zero force, in the vectors of
toward or away from the center magnet.   The attraction by one of the magnets is equal to the repulsion
by the other magnet, (to the center magnet).

Both of these forces (THE ASTTRACTING ONE AND THE REPELLING ONE) change at the same rate,
as they change in distance from the center magnet (also each at the same rate).

The springs are there to close the gaps, between the two outer magnets and the inner magnet,
when the attracting and repelling forces are equal, because the shield magnet is in place.

Without the shield magnet, the outer magnets repel each other.

also ......below is a corrected drawing of  #5.png

best wishes
floor
Title: Re: Magnet force shield
Post by: norman6538 on March 02, 2018, 08:50:02 PM
Thanks Floor, Its always good to hear from you. Nice drawing too. I have always gotten stuck
by a. the closer stronger and further weaker magnet characteristic. and b. when you take work out then the apparatus reset has a price which is close to the work out. and c. repel cannot be used because there is no repel without first a push which you have to pay for.

What torques me is all the fake stuff out there. I have boxes of stuff that I made that failed to deliver what we need.

How do you envision using this?

Norman
Title: Re: Magnet force shield
Post by: Floor on March 03, 2018, 01:36:32 AM
@ Norman

This particular version of magnet force shielding .....
( force cancellation along specific vectors, through the balancing of attractions with repulsion)

Is not as effective as some of the other arrangements I have presented.   This arrangement is finicky.
It has a sticky spot (in removal of the shield magnet).  But it appears to me at this point, that this spot is
adjustable in both magnitude and direction.  Also, I think the sticky spot may be of an acceptably small
magnitude !  in terms of OU ?

My test rig jigs, need to be set up with very precise right angles, but need also be adjustable along certain
vectors and distances.

The use ?   .... self runner of course.

floor
Title: Re: Magnet force shield
Post by: Floor on March 07, 2018, 04:36:35 PM
Here are a couple of new drawings.  Same principles, some variations.

These designs, mechanisms, devices, methods, drawings
are given into the public domain.

magnet force shield 6.png
magnet force shield 7.png

floor
Title: Re: Magnet force shield
Post by: norman6538 on March 07, 2018, 07:52:22 PM
Looks great Floor but when I look at the drawing  I'm afraid there is a got you. Remember closer stronger and further weaker - I think there will be little work available from the repel because of the distance..... But don't take my opinion. You have to measure the
work in and work out to really know.....

Norman
Title: Re: Magnet force shield
Post by: sm0ky2 on March 07, 2018, 10:17:18 PM
There are certain angles where the force can be perpendicular to the
the direction of motion
there is an increase of friction on the sliding mechanism
depending on how you handle the issue
(torque in some situations)

you have to dance around the permeability of the shield
and a plane between the two fields to find it
but the force is not against the direction of the moving shield
it’s between the two magnets

Title: Re: Magnet force shield
Post by: norman6538 on March 08, 2018, 01:24:26 AM
Looking at Floor's fig 4. The 2 mags on the right can be replaced by one because you want
as small a distance between the 2 repelling mags on the left. Then that single magnet can be moved to the right and then repelling magnets can do work. But they need to stay in place
and at equal distance until the single magnet is moved to the right. Then after work is done
they need to come back together so that more work can be done. I call that move the reset.
In order to do the reset those magnets need to be at equal distance from the single magnet.
If at equal distance the single magnet can be moved in between the two repelling magnets
and then the repelling magnets can be pushed together.  Then the reset is complete and
all setup for another push apart and work cycle.

With a single magnet so the repelling magnets can get closer stronger
I believe this setup will work and I will test it and report back.
This is exactly what I have tried to achieve in many ways and failed to do
when work is taken out because the balance becomes unbalanced.

To test simply take 3 equal magnets and arrange 2 to repel with the other
between to see that they can stay there if held equally then remove the
middle magnet and see how far it moves the repelling magnets. That will
be pretty far but remember that the further away the less force meaning
where it stops there is no practical force.

But the thing that has caught me many times is distance. Lets say the magnets
give 1/4 inch of work but the magnet move distance is 1 inch. That is a  lot to
compensate for. It will probably be OU but In my failed cases it take about 200%
efficiency to move that magnet out and back to complete the cycle.

Norman
Title: Re: Magnet force shield
Post by: norman6538 on March 08, 2018, 02:31:52 AM
My quick tests show that this will work but there are 3 distances that might prevent
a self runner. 1. move single magnet away 2. release the repel mags to do work.
3. move the single magnet back 4. move the repel magnets back close to they
can repeat the cycle....

This assumes that the repelling magnets are mechanically limited to equal distance
travel with something via something like a vise grip arrangement.

Now I have to arrange to test the work in and out in the sequence above...
The repelling force will be OU but I doubt that there is enough extra to do the reset.

I did something like this but I can't believe I overlooked sliding the single magnet
to the side.

Norman
Title: Re: Magnet force shield
Post by: Floor on March 08, 2018, 03:03:02 PM
In the drawing (Magnet force shield 5. png) a single inner magnet (of the same type as the outer magnets), will be over powered
by the outer magnets, at close range.

I did the (Magnet force shield 6 and 7 png) drawings to make the concept of that over powering clear.

A magnet of greater strength is needed for the inner magnet.
this might suffice
two magnets glued edge to edge (1 magnet thickness, but 2 magnets wide).
like poles (on the faces) on the same side
these will be repelling n to n and s to s at the edge.

easier than acquiring a custom magnet !

Note .... the strength of these cheap ceramic magnets can vary greatly from one to the next !
Because of this I have a large selection of them (to match them in sets ?).

please find the attached ...  2 force explanation drawings.  (Magnet force shield 8 and 9 png)
note.... different design not directly related to the current discussion.

regards
floor
Title: Re: Magnet force shield
Post by: Floor on March 11, 2018, 04:35:46 PM

A small pdf file (works as a flip book) of the rack and gear action.

Shrink the pages until they just fit the screen, then page through them.

floor
Title: Re: Magnet force shield
Post by: Floor on March 19, 2018, 03:48:23 PM
I dug out an old miniature rack and pinion gear set from my parts stash.  I need to replicate / cast in plastic the pinion gear and two copies of the rack gear.  I think I'll make several copies while I'm at it.

Please find below the force shielding magnet variations, drawings as "Shield variations .PNG"
floor
Title: Re: Magnet force shield
Post by: Floor on March 20, 2018, 04:18:59 PM

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x59r978

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x5an8hd

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x5gqomq

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x5hgqia

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x5d7hdv

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x5d7hdv

floor
Title: Re: Magnet force shield
Post by: Floor on March 20, 2018, 04:37:30 PM
Sorry

I posted the second from the last of the above vidio links twice, instead of
this one below.

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x5d7ip9

You can pause a video and click on the user name, which is "seethisvid"
to see a list of magnet force videos by "seethisvid"

floor
Title: Re: Magnet force shield
Post by: Floor on March 21, 2018, 03:08:55 PM
more stuff
Title: Re: Magnet force shield
Post by: Floor on March 22, 2018, 04:04:36 AM
more
Title: Re: Magnet force shield
Post by: Floor on March 22, 2018, 09:33:41 PM
These particular interactions turned out to be very smooth (no sticky spots)
Also they appear to have a stellar work input to output ratio.

I will do some videos soon.

floor
aka
the boy who cryed wolf
ps (I have my various reasoned explanations for having done so)
Title: Re: Magnet force shield
Post by: Floor on March 24, 2018, 02:21:46 AM
Important details in drawings are some times  easy to over look.

Best wishes
floor
Title: Re: Magnet force shield
Post by: gyulasun on March 24, 2018, 04:01:30 PM
Hi Floor,

You indicated in the above two drawings as if the inner magnet consisted of two magnets fixed to each other by their like pole endings to get a quasi twice as long block magnet with respect to that of the two side magnets.  But I do not think you meant that: the inner magnet i.e. the shield can be made from a single magnet I think that has a correct length with the same poles arrangement.  Am I correct ?

Thanks for showing these ideas and test videos!

Gyula
Title: Re: Magnet force shield
Post by: Floor on March 24, 2018, 04:13:50 PM
Hi Gyula

I some times do not communicate as well as I at first think I have.
Or some times, I am simply wrong about some thing I have stated.

It is very good for the projects when some one asks such questions
and directly / politely points out such errors.

Thanks again.

This has performed very well.
In my preliminary tests of the particular interactions you speak of, I have used
two magnets clamped together (edge to edge, in repulsion).

floor
Title: Re: Magnet force shield
Post by: gyulasun on March 24, 2018, 04:38:00 PM
Okay, you are welcome and thanks also. Your ideas are simple yet surely powerful.

Gyula
Title: Re: Magnet force shield
Post by: norman6538 on March 24, 2018, 10:38:50 PM
Floor, I'm missing something. What I see is easy movements but what I don't see is for
magnets to do work they must be switched on/off so that they can either attract or
push apart.
So to do useful work lets say two magnets can push apart after "being neutralized" by some method and then pushed together into a close position and then they must be "turned back on" so they will push away.

I know your topic is shielding. Is that all you are trying to do here?
Maybe I have looked into this too far.

Norman
Title: Re: Magnet force shield
Post by: truesearch on March 25, 2018, 12:35:08 AM
Norman,

Maybe I'm not getting the entire picture of what Floor is seeing . . . But what I am able to see is that with his theory of shielding is that you can get two magnets that are repealing each other into very close proximity with very little effort. Then remove the shield (also without much effort), resulting in the 2 magnets to again STRONGLY repeal each other.

>>NOTE: Floor noted this: "inner magnets installation and removal only works correctly when the direction is straight out from and into the page.
So that means to me that the inner "shield" magnet is not up&down but needs to be forward&backward as viewed.
Title: Re: Magnet force shield
Post by: norman6538 on March 25, 2018, 01:18:29 PM
Yes Truesearch that is exactly what I understood and your drawing shows that.
Thanks, Its a great concept but remember closer stronger and further weaker will
reduce the best/most potential because the repelling magnets will have considerable gap between them.

But what really counts is measurement of the input and output work - mass x distance.
I have had several embodiments that worked very well and there was extra out but
not enough to do the set and reset work so the work out can be repeated.

I wish Floor and all of us the best of luck/research success.
The world needs a better source of power.
But my hopes are diminishing after trying for 15 years and gaining nothing.
Our master Designer has done a very tight job of wireing all of the physics together.

Norman
Title: Re: Magnet force shield
Post by: Floor on March 25, 2018, 05:46:14 PM
@Norman6835

Thanks Norman for your observations, input and good questions.

The png file (Magnet_image.png) uploaded by true search is a correct interpretation / representation of
the sequences.    Thank you Truesearch.

QUOTE  from Norman6835
"But what really counts is measurement of the input and output work - mass x distance."
END QUOTE

WORK = FORCE x DISPLACEMANT

Magnitude of (is amount of) force (is push or pull)   times     displacement (is the straight line distance in the direction of the applied force)
equals work.

Mass,  acceleration rate and inertia are out of the picture at this point in the process.

thanks again
floor
Title: Re: Magnet force shield
Post by: Floor on March 27, 2018, 03:05:27 PM
@norman6835

On a more personal note.
Thanks, your involvement has helped keep me honest about what I have seen
as apposed to what I have sometimes mistakenly only thought I was seeing.
I hope we will continue to hear from you in the future !
best wishes
floor
Title: Re: Magnet force shield
Post by: norman6538 on March 27, 2018, 10:43:45 PM
@norman6835

On a more personal note.
Thanks, your involvement has helped keep me honest about what I have seen
as apposed to what I have sometimes mistakenly only thought I was seeing.
I hope we will continue to hear from you in the future !
best wishes
floor

I'll be around. I have a permanent magnet addiction that has not been cured.
I do learn from others. Butch Lafonte was one who showed lots of setups but never
any measurements. And that triggered me to try lots of things. Again several were
OU but not enough extra to do the switching to make it a self runner.
So I have seen OU but not a self runner. What mystifies me is all those patents out
there that are not on the shelves to buy. I thought Flynn by now would have something but apparently not.

Best of luck to you and all others too.
I'm not in it for money nor ego - just want to see it like priest in the temple was satisfied when he saw Jesus.

Norman

Title: Re: Magnet force shield
Post by: lancaIV on March 28, 2018, 01:05:40 PM
I think for myself that the "nature designer" wires the electro-magnetic movement a little more complex :

only shielding of two magnets does not mean output >1

question 1 : Richard Fradella generator description            "nominal" RPM relation-factor
1000 RPM nominal = 1000 W
500 RPM                  125 W                          0,5 x 0,5 x 0,5 = 0,125
100 RPM                      1 W                          0,1 x 0,1 x 0,1 = 0,001

rotation for itself does not mean research target success
a "shielded" motor-generator rotating could be in sum 3% efficient (Hermann Thoene) or less

fixed rotation or variable speed device ?

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
question 2 : Mukherjee generator
generator given F=BiL in VA
1/2 counter-BiL-force= 1/2 V x 1/2 A
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

How is the wished "duty cycle" in this "permanent magnet idea" Magnet_image.png above applied as part of a push&pull (JLNaudin) process ? Not only the air gap is important !

The "duty cycle" controlling is torque-given !
controle: Frequency/Time/Function in one device

btw: "shielding/neutralizing" counterpart is amplifying

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Flynn Bro. did also applied for a coil-wrapped permanent magnet,as magnetic force-shield
or magnetic force amplifier
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://overunity.com/17119/pulling-energy-from-the-ambient-energy-field-using-a-coil-capacitor/msg519030/#new (http://overunity.com/17119/pulling-energy-from-the-ambient-energy-field-using-a-coil-capacitor/msg519030/#new)
...
From theory point of view there should exist a power of four relation between the coil capacitor’s capacitance (C) and the amount of induced charge in the charge collecting capacitor per cycle. This is because there occur two rate of changes. First happens in magnetic to energetic induction that creates the energetic current flow and the second in DC conversion which is done by energetic to electric induction as energetic component changes direction between two unequal magnetic field potentials. So when C is increased two times the amount of induced charge should be increased sixteen times.
.............
Title: Re: Magnet force shield
Post by: Floor on March 28, 2018, 07:55:40 PM
@Norman

Butch LaFonte's work helped to inspire me to.

"just want to see it like priest in the temple was satisfied when he saw Jesus."

Yea, me to

Here is the latest video
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6gzr2q

I've seen the light
Title: Re: Magnet force shield
Post by: Floor on March 28, 2018, 08:21:31 PM
@LankaTV

QUOTE
"How is the wished "duty cycle" in this "permanent magnet idea" Magnet_image.png above
applied as part of a push&pull (JLNaudin) process ? ENDQUOTE

I Don't know.  There are drawings of linking multiple Twist drive units as well as
various other magnet configurations in some of my other topics.
Sorry I'm too tired to look those up for you today.

QUOTE
Not only the air gap is important !" END QUOTE

I havent tried this with a larger shield magnet yet (instead of two magnets clamped together)
but only with a smaller and single magnet.

I  don't think an air gap between the two shield magnets is needed.

QUOTE
"shielding/neutralizing" counterpart is amplifying"  END QUOTE

Yes its something like a magnetic transister or triode vecuum tube.

regards
floor
Title: Re: Magnet force shield
Post by: Floor on March 30, 2018, 07:20:51 PM
@ all viewers

These three videos are the ones most directly related to / demonstrating this over unity process.

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x59r978
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x5an8hd
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6gzr2q

Do something good with this
floor
Title: Re: Magnet force shield
Post by: Floor on March 30, 2018, 07:41:13 PM

Some of the drawings depict interactions in which the outer magnets are in
REPULSION
when the inner magnet / magnets are removed.

Others of the drawings depict interactions in which the outer magnets are in
ATTRACTION
when the inner magnet is removed.

The directions in which the inner magnet and/or magnets can be installed and
removed with out work against magnetic forces, are not entirely the same when
work is output through attraction instead of output done by repulsion !

floor
Title: Re: Magnet force shield
Post by: Floor on April 01, 2018, 02:28:20 AM

Please find the 3 attached PNG images
and also the video links upon the last page.

These devices, principles of operation, devices, my drawings and videos
are given into the public domain.

floor
Title: Re: Magnet force shield
Post by: Floor on April 03, 2018, 11:38:45 PM
This PNG file (below) is just my conception of a Bloch wall.

floor
Title: Re: Magnet force shield
Post by: Floor on April 04, 2018, 10:21:20 PM
Another variation and design.
floor
Title: Re: Magnet force shield
Post by: Floor on April 05, 2018, 10:10:11 PM
Here are some more descriptions (partial) of the
magnetic forces at play
in these shielding methods.

Please find these 4 PNG files below.
best wishes
floor
Title: Re: Magnet force shield
Post by: Floor on April 05, 2018, 10:18:54 PM

In the drawings  as     MagForShldComplex 1.PNG

Figures number 2, 4, and 6 should be labled as front views !

floor
Title: Re: Magnet force shield
Post by: Floor on April 06, 2018, 04:04:12 PM

Fixes / amendment / new drawings / more explanations...

Title: Re: Magnet force shield
Post by: Floor on April 07, 2018, 05:06:20 PM
More stuff
floor
Title: Re: Magnet force shield
Post by: Floor on April 09, 2018, 12:54:31 PM
Some corrections to this drawing

floor
Title: Re: Magnet force shield
Post by: Floor on April 09, 2018, 01:05:34 PM
and this drawing as well
Title: Re: Magnet force shield
Post by: Floor on April 09, 2018, 01:28:18 PM

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x59r978

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x5an8hd

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x5gqomq

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x5hgqia

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x5d7hdv

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x5d7ip9

floor
Title: Re: Magnet force shield
Post by: lancaIV on April 09, 2018, 02:11:31 PM
Hello floor,
thanks a lot for your demonstration !

I think it is the explaining part about the magnetic force behaviour as showed by
Joe Flynns Parallel Path Magnet Technology !
Especially from the PP Egroup member  "GM" his experiment !
Figure 4
http://www.angelfire.com/ak5/energy21/magnetictechnology.htm (http://www.angelfire.com/ak5/energy21/magnetictechnology.htm)

Sincerely
OCWL

p.s.: the counter-part research of this "only permanent magnetic force shielding device"is an "only electro-magnetic force shielding device"
and possibel an "and/or" switch modus

page/sheet 2
https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/mosaics?CC=US&NR=5254925A&KC=A&FT=D&ND=3&date=19931019&DB=EPODOC&locale=en_EP (https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/mosaics?CC=US&NR=5254925A&KC=A&FT=D&ND=3&date=19931019&DB=EPODOC&locale=en_EP)

A series of experiments were conducted to evaluate and compare the increase of magnetic flux achieved by the novel magnetic arrays disclosed herein as compared to other magnets, for example, neodymium magnets (NIB magnets or also known as neodymium-iron-boron magnets) or Halbach magnet arrays. Specifically, the experiments focused on changes in electromagnetic field (emf) and motor torque or horsepower. The data are reported in FIG. 8. The experimental data illustrates the increased electromagnetic field and/or motor torque generated by the novel magnetic arrays in comparison to NIB magnets and/or Halbach magnets.
Title: Re: Magnet force shield
Post by: norman6538 on April 09, 2018, 09:11:10 PM
and this drawing as well

The problem I see with this arrangement in msg 171 is that indeed it is balanced and will
leave or return with almost no work required due to that balance BUT when it twists
even a little ie take work out - it becomes unbalanced and then requires work to reset it
for the next cycle. HOWEVER if you arrange two of these with opposite arrangements
they MIGHT balance each other so that they can be reset. I did not try this but will
arrange such a test....
So if you can get the twist arranged to balance each other then you have free permanent
magnet work....

Norman
Title: Re: Magnet force shield
Post by: Floor on April 10, 2018, 12:43:06 AM
@Norman6835

Yes were on the same page ie. Looking at efficiency methods / reducing friction, while also
maintaining precise alignments, without the necessity of large / rigid sliding mechanisms ect..

Title: Re: Magnet force shield
Post by: norman6538 on April 13, 2018, 02:25:40 AM
Floor I tested the basic idea with this little setup.

First the  2 mags on the top/left are pushing away from each other and they are
tilted up so you can see what the potential work is there by the gap between them.

Then to the right you can see a magnet between the 2 magnets. Pardon all that black silicone seal that holds the magnet in place.  The second magnet is hidden behind the S.

Then off of the magnet between them you see a white tab with and arrow <----> on it indicating
that it easily slides back and forth and when it is pulled out. There is a slot in the board where the magnet travels back and forth and plastic to keep it aligned and slipery.

The top/left magnets indicate the potential repel work done because there is a wider gap than the magnet width. Its crude and quick and dirty but shows the
basic concept. It needs to be measured for work in and out. But the real problem will
be the loss of power due to "further weaker" magnetic characteristics.
But the concept is solid.

Norman
Title: Re: Magnet force shield
Post by: Floor on April 14, 2018, 03:24:15 AM

Thanks Norman

Here is the same demonstration (7 minute video) using 2 magnets
clamped together in opposition as the "sliding inner magnet"

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6gzr2q

floor
Title: Re: Magnet force shield
Post by: Floor on April 14, 2018, 03:58:38 PM
A rotation to linear design.

These designs, methods, devices, drawings and
videos which are novel, are given into the public domain.

floor
Title: Re: Magnet force shield
Post by: Floor on April 14, 2018, 04:17:58 PM
@LancaTV

Thank you very much for the Flynn links and other info.
floor
Title: Re: Magnet force shield
Post by: norman6538 on April 14, 2018, 04:25:59 PM
Very nice Floor especially the colored parts description.
That should rotate easily and push the plate away against the
spring and then it should come back...

But it would be better to pull and lift a weight that could then do work instead of
squeezing the springs and loosing that work. Although the spring could apply its
squeezed potential work to something.

Norman
Title: Re: Magnet force shield
Post by: Floor on April 14, 2018, 04:38:55 PM
@Norman6538

May be a second unit in opposition to and properly timed to
the first unit, should replace the springs ?

Work out put, would then be reciprocating pushes.
floor
Title: Re: Magnet force shield
Post by: citfta on April 14, 2018, 05:09:49 PM
The reciprocating forces could then be applied to a flywheel.  I really like this design.  I don't comment much about what you are doing but I read every post and study every drawing.  Great work and research!
Title: Re: Magnet force shield
Post by: Floor on April 14, 2018, 05:23:23 PM
Thanks citfta

floor

Title: Re: Magnet force shield
Post by: Floor on April 24, 2018, 09:51:15 PM
This latest video is called "Shield Actions"

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6ichk2

Best to watch it in the context of these other two videos

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6gzr2q
and
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x59r978

best wishes
floor
Title: Re: Magnet force shield
Post by: Floor on April 28, 2018, 12:01:14 AM
A demonstration video of a very effective magnetic force shielding.

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6ijgy1

floor
Title: Re: Magnet force shield
Post by: norman6538 on April 28, 2018, 02:13:05 PM
I only get sound on my Linux system and on windows the sound is very low and poor
quality. Is anyone else having problems with dailymotion videos??

Norman
Title: Re: Magnet force shield
Post by: gyulasun on April 28, 2018, 04:12:58 PM
On my Windows system the sound is low with respect to his other similar videos.  When Floor zooms the camera onto the stationary magnet, the sound is much better as he speaks close to it but at the distance the sound is lower than usual.  And he surely speaks in a low-toned voice in this video.  Picture quality is good.

Even though some words are not clearly understandable it is good what he demonstrates I think we can agree on that.   8)

Gyula
Title: Re: Magnet force shield
Post by: Floor on April 30, 2018, 08:45:59 PM

On many of these videos, I often find that I have to ues external speakers in order to get enough volume.
This is the easiest solution.  The fault is my own.  I some times, am simply not speaking loudly enough, during
the videos.  External speakers are the only thing you can do.

I will try to remember to speak loud and clear In the future.
floor
Title: Re: Magnet force shield
Post by: Floor on May 01, 2018, 02:27:54 PM
NOTES ON
VARIATIONS IN THE SHIELDING MAGNET ARRAY

In this last video I got the best shielding results to date.  I did this by trying
out various magnets as the shield magnet array.

I swapped various magnets into the various positions until I arrived at a satisfactory
level of shielding effectiveness. I then labeled 3 particularly effective magnets as #1, #2
and #3 for future reference / demonstrations.

Also, I  labeled two particular magnets for use in the fixed and sliding magnet positions.

Prior to this, inconsistencies in my results were just about giving me fits !

I have found SIGNIFICANT differences in the effectiveness of shielding.....
while using magnets (which although they are of the same shape and size)...
those magnets are of significantly varied strengths from each other.

The variations in the magnet strengths are a consequence of using  inexpensive / off
the shelf magnets.

I have not as of this time, determined what kind of mix and match of shield magnets
is most effective.  In other words... the three magnets used in the shield magnet array
in the last video... are unknown to me in the respects of

are all three magnets of a very similar strength ?
are the two outer most magnet well matched .. while the inner is stronger ?
are the two outer most magnet well matched .. while the inner is weaker ?
and so on ????
floor
Title: Re: Magnet force shield
Post by: gyulasun on May 02, 2018, 12:22:49 AM
Hi Floor,

I have attached a drawing someone made years ago (unfortunately I do not remember in which yahoo technical mail group he uploaded and who he was, to acknowledge).   He used a Gauss meter to check two ferrite magnets how their field changes at the surface of the magnets at different points and then he let them attract and measure the flux again at the same points and he also placed them facing in repel and checked the flux again. The mechanical sizes for the magnets he used are in the top row. They were magnetized through their thickness.

His measurements also show what you found: two magnets of the same size and type do not have identical strength at all.
I do think that this is also valid for rare earth magnets because magnet manufacturers charge extra cost if someone wants to buy quasi equal strength magnets (albeit still within certain tolerance range).

This means that for such shielding purposes it seems the best (what you also had to do) to select the magnets out of several ones to get satisfactory results and this involves buying several magnets at the cheapest price possible which is probably ebay.com or maybe aliexpress.com   Also, it may be worth building a simple yet useful Gauss meter, especially for comparing magnets, no real need for calibrating for actual Gauss values in this case.   I found this link at random:
https://rimstar.org/science_electronics_projects/diy_gauss_meter_with_digital_display_ba.htm (https://rimstar.org/science_electronics_projects/diy_gauss_meter_with_digital_display_ba.htm)   or another simple circuit:
http://www.coolmagnetman.com/magmeter.htm

Gyula
Title: Re: Magnet force shield
Post by: Floor on May 03, 2018, 10:46:47 PM
@Gyulasun

Thanks for the info. and links
floor
Title: Re: Magnet force shield
Post by: Floor on May 07, 2018, 06:20:09 PM
A path to over unity with magnets

BELIEVING THAT HUMAN BEINGS CAN DO MOST ANY THING THEY DECIDE TO DO.

HAVING A WILLINGNESS TO LEARN
AND
A general UNWILLINGNESS TO BE INSTRUCTED.

The study of, and arriving at a clear understanding of science's definitions of  energy, work and force
enables one to comprehend the possibility that energy CONVERSIONS might result in an over unity of
mechanical work input to mechanical work output.

Exposure to daring and brilliant minds (such as are some of those present at the OVERUNITY forum), and to
their ideas and to the links to many other internet resources.
....................................................
BIGGER IS NOT ALWAYS BETTER. Working with small / weak magnets allowed direct / hands on contact with and manipulations of magnets.  This along with some precise measurements, allows one to arrive at CLEAR UNDERSTANDINGS of the forces involved and of the directions (vectors) in which those forces act.
....................................................
NOT having the approach toward efficiency as a primary goal.....

leads one away from focusing upon conservation of energy via circular motion, constant motion
or consistent direction of motion, but instead, toward completions of actions before the start of a
next action, start / stop motions, reciprocating actions, right angle and / or near right angle interactions....

Resulting in low speed / high force / small displacement actions in which accelerations are small and therefore also
is there LITTLE OR NO ADVANTAGE gained in arrangements made in order to conserve momentum !

These things, and a good woman by your side.

In the words of Stephan H.  "hmmm"