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New theories about free energy systems => Theory of overunity and free energy => Topic started by: guest1289 on January 13, 2017, 09:13:23 PM
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Why Is AC-Current More Efficient Over Long Distances ?
I have never found the actual reason, and the reason is not mentioned on the wikipedia page.
Is it something like :
- dc-current causes more fatigue on the wire/material, or, causes it to heat up more than ac-current, for some reason, maybe just for the reason that ac-current gives the conductor-material that short rest before current is sent in the opposite direction( seems like the most probable answer )
- or, is it possible that in ac-current at great distances, there is some sort of crashing effect between currents going in different directions( in the wire, or in the field around the wire ), which somehow actually generates surplus current, or, boosts current( it would affect the frequency or cause interference ), the end result being that more current arrives at the other end. ( they have equipment which cleans the interference of the received current ).
So could it be some sort of unofficially known overunity effect of ac-current particularly over long distances, is it possible that it occurs past some sort of specific distance.
It's certainly odd, because I assume ac-current is a very strong emitter of electromagnetic-radiation( radio signal ) while steady/smooth dc-current( from a battery at least ) would emit none, and yet ac-current is more efficient over long distances.
- or is it something to do with the electromagnetic-field around the wire, but I'm not referring to losses via radio transmission, even though initially they seem to be the same thing, maybe something like friction between the electromagnetic-field and materials outside of the wire, or something else.
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This is not directly an answer to your question and statements,but since 2 decades there is an alternative for HVAC cables : https://library.e.abb.com/public/3325cb4054a22738c125766400471fd5/HVDC%20Light%20Cables%20for%20long%20distance%20grid%20connection.pdf (https://library.e.abb.com/public/3325cb4054a22738c125766400471fd5/HVDC%20Light%20Cables%20for%20long%20distance%20grid%20connection.pdf)
http://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/1742-6596/507/3/032037/pdf (http://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/1742-6596/507/3/032037/pdf)
one handicap less:
https://www.forumforthefuture.org/greenfutures/articles/breakthrough-long-distance-power-transmission
Often our information stand-point is not up-to-date,or alternatives are not in use cause the common technology and material is only cheaper , this argument only in value because the mass-production from HVAC cables !
And new material can not give us the safety and warranty like the "old"one.
I think the direction for off-shore energy-farming and energy distribution will in future be based by HVDC !
Sincerely
OCWL
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I'm no expert.. I always did think it is because DC is pushing electricity along.. the further the more resistance ( as in a water hose)
AC However is not moving the whole distance, it vibrates, by changing the magnetic field at some Hz. the electricity moves enough in its own limited space to excite coils (in appliances)
Thats why AC doesnt handle earth leaks well, at that moment it starts flowing and the system can't handle that.
See it like this..
Take a large rock.. lets say 5 ton , you on one side.. a person on the other and you want to communicate.
Lets try pushing first (DC )
push te rock for 5 minutes , you have a hard time, and as you move the rock along.. you will either need to supply more rock, or travel yourself. .if you succeed.. then you would be exhausted
Now you take a hammer and give it a whack... Now the other person will detect sound and/or feel vibration. Thats easy to do with way more less energy.
nothing moved from its place.. and the only thing to replenish is the whack
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Im going to take a lil stab at it.
Makes me wonder why and how the Edison dc gens putting out 3 to 4kv gets distributed and what level is the voltage at the home or business?
But AC being able to convert very high voltage down to lower high voltages and then finally down to consumer level voltages, allows for very high voltages to be on long distance lines with little loss due to very low amperage where even the use of alum wire with its added resistance compared to copper is virtually nill in added resistance when considering the very high voltage.
DC, especially back then, didnt have the ways we can convert it today. Iimagine the city wire layouts possibly were set in ways that there was equal lengths of wire, aprox, to each destination as to get a safer voltage level after voltage drop through the lines??
So AC with the use of transformers allows for very high voltage across long distances, thus very low loss, where as DC, imagine having to deal with that high voltage at the consumer end, if it were 100kv or even 50kv. By the time there is say 400v at the destination, a source of 3 to 4kv with that kind of a voltage drop is big in losses. I dunno maybe they had high voltage dc motors that ran local gens to lower the dc voltage. Maybe they didnt get to that before AC took over.
Mags
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Why is it so hard for people to just do a simple search for their answers? Here is a fairly in depth article and discussion about the pros and cons of using AC for long distance power transfer.
https://www.quora.com/Why-is-alternating-current-better-for-long-distance-power-transmission-than-direct-current
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Why is it so hard for people to just do a simple search for their answers? Here is a fairly in depth article and discussion about the pros and cons of using AC for long distance power transfer.
https://www.quora.com/Why-is-alternating-current-better-for-long-distance-power-transmission-than-direct-current (https://www.quora.com/Why-is-alternating-current-better-for-long-distance-power-transmission-than-direct-current)
That's no fun!
Sometimes you have to think a little for yourself first !
;)
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Like using a power saw with a long extension cord, you can feel the power drop vs plugging the power saw in the outlet directly. So AC at very high voltages, which can be simply converted, is where we get better efficiency.
Like if we were to have DC at the source station, say 3kv, then we wanted to run that power saw at the power outlet in the distance, the saw most likely runs at some lower voltage, requiring more current for a given wood cutting power level. So the source at a distance has to provide all this current to run the saw that is running on a lower input voltage than the source. So the saw is a low impedance or in dc terms, low resistance load. Where as the hv ac from the source is met with very high resistance primaries of the step down transformer at the destination. So that helps in reducing the high tension line voltage drops by not applying heavy current loads.
So DC is an issue compared to hv ac for distant power transfer. Most likely the best bet is to use dc for storage and use efficient inverters to distribute power when it comes to power storage on the electric grid, which is what I believe they do now. Read an article about using used lipo batteries from electric cars as sub station storage in some cases.
Mags
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I remember SoundStream car amps in the early days, the dc to dc power supply inverter was a separate module. The inverter module was mounted close to the battery and the AC out was sent back to the amp where it was rectified and cap storage for rail voltages. Might seem silly. But when you are raising the voltage in the amplifier to higher rail voltages than the 12v dc input, then the heavy gauge power wire requirement becomes less. So a twisted pair of 14awg to run the inverter output to the amp is probably as good as running a 4awg 12 back to the trunk, mostly because the inverter output was 35v to 45v, depending on the amps of the time that used this system. So to get the same power back to the amplifier circuits, the current through the twisted pair power wires carried less than half the current requirement of 12v over the distance from the battery to the trunk.
Mags
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And most likely having DC at very high voltages such as we can with ac would be probably lossy just due to having a constant very high voltage charge out in the open. Like lightning always ready to strike.
Mags
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Not sure if the technology was available in Edison's time but a boost converter will raise the dc to considerable voltages for the transfer then it can be stepped down using the buck converter.
But even short distances (10 feet) require large wire using say 12v dc, but would that be the case using say 120 volts dc, probably not.
Using AC was inevitable because of the north an south of permanent magnets and their use in generating power.
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Contrary to popular belief Tesla did not invent AC or the transformer, he did invent the AC motor an perfected the use of AC as we know it today.
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Your actual initial statement is completely incorrect. At first Edison Dynamo's were DC generators. Most utility generator even today are set up
to give about 1050Volts output. People then wanted to go with AC because Transformer technology allowed an inexpensive way to easily adjust
voltage levels, even to the extremes like 10E^8 Volts. P=E*I Power stays relatively the same after transformation. but the resistor equation E=I^2/R
says that for the inevitable resistance of the line R. The power loss goes up linearly with voltage but goes up with the square power of current. This
means to minimize losses you want to decrease the current absolutely and much as possible and increase the voltage as much as possible. This is why
most of the power grid works with variable wire sizes and transformer substations and individual transformers in the field to defeat the resistance of line
attenuating then to transform electricity to nearly match the standards customers need. fast forward 70 years and the new technology is now semiconductors
rather than transformers. It turns out that using semiconductor one can create whatever AC frequency one wants even at the extraordinary levels of utility
electrical power. Now it becomes better to transmit DC at 500million volts and AC HV has some capacitive losses even at low 50/60Hz. This ultrahigh DC HV
at ultrahigh power is transmitted over something called Interstate Intertie lines which in the US run generally north and south because it is not yet economic
to transmit power from east west. There is a huge new site in New Mexico, I think ,that will be the next step. Superconductor DC power transmission lines will
allow the Western US excesses of wind power and solar power to be distributed to loads on the East and West coasts.
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Nobody mentioned the radiated and skin effect losses with AC power. These favor DC transmission at similar voltages over AC.
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Why is AC-Current More Efficient Over Long Distances ?
AC isn't more efficient to transfer than DC. DC is.
AC suffers inductive and capacitive losses as well as skin-effect and proximity-effect.
AC is easier to transform up and down, though, but that has nothing to do with distance.
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AC isn't more efficient to transfer than DC. DC is.
AC suffers inductive and capacitive losses as well as skin-effect and proximity-effect.
AC is easier to transform up and down, though, but that has nothing to do with distance.
Well that was what I was getting at saying the extension cord inline with a power saw will show a very noticeable drop in saw power as compared to the saw connected direct to the outlet. Now if the outlet voltage was higher and the saw is able to run at that higher voltage, adding the cord again would show less of a drop at the saw. So the use of higher voltage does overcome resistance losses.
Like a home built EV. One may be running at 72v at 600A controller, there is a potential of 43kw. That would be 6 12v batts in series.
But if you are really into it, and you use 25 batteries, then you will have 300v. You will only have to pull 144A to get the same 43kw at the controller. So now, the big power wires, the same used in the 72v EV, will dissipate less resistance losses at 144A than at 600A. ;) So the higher the voltage the system is, the more efficient the power levels.
AC is just so much easier, even these days with switching power supplies, to use as it is. The simple transformers take the place of switching power supplies, of which would be much more expensive to build considering the high voltage levels, total and peak power requirements at power plant and substation levels. Again, unless the step ups and step downs were dc motors driving gens could DC be used in the same manner.
Was looking at a switch the other day. The higher the voltage, the lower the amps. So its not the amps really that limit the rating of the switch, its the wattage. Fuses are rated at a particular amperage and at a particular voltage. If we have a 120v 20A fuse, and it will blow at 20A, will the same fuse blow at 20A if the circuit were only 12v? Or will the fuse carry more current at 12v line? So now lets use the same fuse at 220v. Will it take 20A to blow the fuse this time, or will it blow at less than 20A?
Mags
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AC isn't more efficient to transfer than DC. DC is.
AC suffers inductive and capacitive losses as well as skin-effect and proximity-effect.
AC is easier to transform up and down, though, but that has nothing to do with distance.
Skin effect is more at high freq, not at 60 or 50hz, I believe.
Havnt tried it yet but say if we have to run an extension cord 100ft from a 120v AC outlet to run a 300w halogen work light. If we replaced the extension cord with 2 separate wires that were say 3ft apart for the 100ft, would there be any change in power at the light in these 2 situations? Lets exclude the 3rd ground wire for this idea.
I am thinking that when the 2 wires are close together, even twisted pair as in the extension cord, would transfer the power to the light better than the separated ones, and the mutual induction of each wire to the other compliment current flow, where the separated wires would have to deal with their own self induction possibly reducing the output to the light in comparison.
Mags
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HVDC_Cross-Channel
2000 MW system (1986)Because the first installation did not meet increasing requirements, it was replaced in 1975–1986 by a new HVDC system with a maximum transmission rating of 2,000 MW between France and Great Britain, for which two new converter stations were built in Sellindge (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sellindge) (UK) and in Bonningues-lès-Calais (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonningues-l%C3%A8s-Calais) (Les Mandarins station), near Calais (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calais), (France). Unlike most HVDC schemes, where the two converter stations are built by the same manufacturer, the two converter stations of the 2,000 MW scheme were built by different manufacturers (although both have subsequently become part of the same parent company, Alstom (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alstom)). The Sellindge converter station was built by GEC (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Electric_Company_plc)[3] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HVDC_Cross-Channel#cite_note-3) and the Les Mandarins converter station was built by CGE Alsthom.
This HVDC-link is 73 kilometres (45 mi) long in route, with 70 kilometres (43 mi) between the two ends. The undersea section consists of eight 46 kilometres (29 mi) long 270 kV submarine cables (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Submarine_power_cable), laid between Folkestone (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Folkestone) (UK) and Sangatte (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sangatte) (France), arranged as two fully independent 1,000 MW Bipoles, each operated at a DC voltage of ±270 kV. Cables are laid in pairs in four trenches so that the magnetic fields generated by the two conductors are largely cancelled. The landside parts of the link consist of 8 cables with lengths of 18.5 kilometres (11.5 mi) in England, and 6.35 kilometres (3.95 mi) in France.[4] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HVDC_Cross-Channel#cite_note-4)
In common with the 1961 scheme, there is no provision to permit neutral current to flow through the sea. Although each station includes an earth electrode, this is used only to provide a neutral reference, and only one of the two electrodes is connected at a given time so that there can be no current flow between them.
The system was built with solid-state semiconductor thyristor (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thyristor) valves from the outset. Initially these were air-cooled and used analogue control systems but in 2011 and 2012 respectively, the thyristor valves of Bipole 1 and Bipole 2 were replaced by more modern water-cooled thyristor valves and digital control systems supplied by Alstom (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alstom).[5] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HVDC_Cross-Channel#cite_note-areva-5)
This system remains the world's largest-capacity submarine cable HVDC system.[citation needed]
In November 2016 during Storm Angus (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Storm_Angus) a ship dragging an anchor cut four of the eight cable components, reducing capacity by 50%.[6] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HVDC_Cross-Channel#cite_note-6) It is expected that repairs will be completed by February 2017
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Skin effect is more at high freq, not at 60 or 50hz, I believe.
Havnt tried it yet but say if we have to run an extension cord 100ft from a 120v AC outlet to run a 300w halogen work light. If we replaced the extension cord with 2 separate wires that were say 3ft apart for the 100ft, would there be any change in power at the light in these 2 situations? Lets exclude the 3rd ground wire for this idea.
I am thinking that when the 2 wires are close together, even twisted pair as in the extension cord, would transfer the power to the light better than the separated ones, and the mutual induction of each wire to the other compliment current flow, where the separated wires would have to deal with their own self induction possibly reducing the output to the light in comparison.
Mags
Look up ,up at the transmission lines. See any twisted pairs? See any twisted pairs going from HV high towers to the substations? You have to also realize there will be some greater measure of magnetic interference with other conductors in a non cancelled condition which might not be too healthy.
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These above items reminds me of when they first started putting Celluar Phone antennas on active high voltage AC power distribution towers at least around here.
That has to be as tricky as heck because the dimensional control of the cell radio feed has to do duplexing (transmitting and receiving nearby frequencies at the same time)
means they have to run signals through copper pipe like conductors. If lightning triggered power discharges into the RF radio equipment I doubt it would last very
long. Also even the small continuous static discharges have got to be radio noisy. I have to salute the designers who first thought they could do this and the technicians
that work on this type of equipment.
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Also Leedskalnin has said something related to this.
"You have been wondering why alternating currents can run so far away from their generators. One reason is between every time the currents start and stop there is no pressure in the wire so the magnets from the air run in the wire and when the run starts there already are magnets in the wire which do not have to come from the generator, so the power line itself is a small generator which assists the big generator to furnish the magnets for the currents to run with. I have a generator that generates currents on a small scale from the air without using any magnets around it."
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@for the question - a different view
DC is like having two water hoses open at the same time. That's why most dc coils when they burn up do so near the center point.
AC is like one hose is a drain open to the atmosphere, and the other hose where during half a cycle it pumps and during the other half a cycle it is in suction and this creates a STATIONARY change via the inertial changes being seen by our slip rings like a one directional ratchet where one way or the other turns the socket in the same direction.
Both types never really pump but DC is dual push, ac is single push/pull where in both cases there is never any real FLOW of anything. There is only a conveyance. Like when you go to a huge stadium and see the human wave where people stand up then sit as the wave point passes them. The wave is conveyed but no one really moved out of their position.
There is no such thing as alternating current in the sense that we have been taught that the output is on the hot for half a cycle and on the neutral for the other half a cycle. Try and prove me wrong. hehehe
DC is more of an adversarial power source with both sides looking to take over the pulsed object where as AC is more of a one handed taunting of the coil. Tesla, if he took the AC further would have invented Dual AC but there was no need for that then and 180 degree offsets where not easy to make.
AC should be called Single Wire Seesaw Current. Or you can call it also Single wire Push/Pull. That's why AC can be conveyed for such long distances because the higher the applied voltage the deeper (or further) the conveyance can reach without too much loss. Voltage is distance. Amperage is the number of atoms involved in the distance conveyance. A concept thunder (or your spark gap) has learned long ago.
If in these simple DC to AC comparisons, some here can jump the fence from the Standard bullshit to the new side of the fence, you will start to see effects in a totally different and more direct and realistic manner. You will soon then realize that all this electron/field crap we have been fed was only an illusion reinforced by our normal desire to manifest notions in our minds in the most accepted form as being "SAFE to talk about".
Our present notions are only accepted because peoples jobs are at stake, and regardless if society is following a false or true concept, the toys still work. But in order to arrive at a next generation of toys, if the concept stays the same, there will be no next, there will only be a continuation of the same. The same road leading to the same losses while this other road will lead to OU, levitation as being an atomic inertial effect and NOT FIELD RELATED, new types of wire with more oriented atoms producing hyper super conductivity at ambient temperatures instead of requiring absolute freezing to produce what we call super conductivity today, is just a furt in the windstorm.
With the new notions, we will build transformers with 1" long secondaries directly going to load. With the new notions, EE math will be simplified to its extreme. Electrical potential will be seen as degrees of nucleic sway, materials will be chosen for their nucleic reactance, this will change how we see mass, our bodies, liquid, gas, plasma, will all be seen in a new light. Xrays will finally be seen as an inward effect and not this outward radiating ray that cuts through everything organic.
But you can only realize you need to look elsewhere when you arrive at the edge of the forest understand that your world is much greater then the barren outskirts of your domain. Only if you thirst for something that you know in fact has to exist in another manner then how you see it today. It requires a WILLINGNESS to push your mind out of the stranglehold of present concepts. There is no other way. A pill won't do it, watching TV won't do it, going to work won't do it, even praying 10 hours a day won't do it. Only your mental intention to push yourself beyond your present limits will even start to kindle the fire that can then grow inside you as a new method of normality. The toys will stay the same for a while, but then, they will morph into quasi living entities with reacting atoms at every nick and cranny of the object.
Happy New Years 2017 to all.
wattsup
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Skin effect is more at high freq, not at 60 or 50hz, I believe.
Havnt tried it yet but say if we have to run an extension cord 100ft from a 120v AC outlet to run a 300w halogen work light. If we replaced the extension cord with 2 separate wires that were say 3ft apart for the 100ft, would there be any change in power at the light in these 2 situations? Lets exclude the 3rd ground wire for this idea.
I am thinking that when the 2 wires are close together, even twisted pair as in the extension cord, would transfer the power to the light better than the separated ones, and the mutual induction of each wire to the other compliment current flow, where the separated wires would have to deal with their own self induction possibly reducing the output to the light in comparison.
Mags
Hi Mags,
You are correct that running single wires that are separated would not transfer the power as well as a regular extension cord where the wires are next to each other. But the reason you are correct is not only what you surmised. The wires running next to each other also cancel the inducing ability of each other. I once saw a machine designed by an engineer that was not familiar with this function. He ran the three different phases of power in three separate conduits. When the machine was first turned on it started making a very loud humming sound and the conduits started smoking. Each phase being in it's own conduit allowed those wires to induce tremendous eddy currents in the conduits. We had to completely rewire the machine before it worked properly. In your extension cord example the returning current is cancelling the outgoing currents magnetic field and therefore there is not a strong enough field to induce eddy currents in any nearby metal objects or in any metal conduit if conduit is being used.
Carroll
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Because it is an action of the active motion of the sine wave it's dynamic it needs some where to go or disparate, it's realy obvious with the way it's generated. Eric Dollard is your man he explains it in one of his videos. If i shoved you in a tube and kept shoving things in behind you you would have to move along or out the other side or bang you explode into fragments AC energy is the same.
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I was playing with small ring magnets letting them spiral down a welding rod an notice they would want to change direction before they reached the bottom, it was like the field tightened up if it only spun in one direction, at least that was the thought that came to mind watching it.
Also if you try to push a wire through a.conduit it tightens up but if you push and pull it moves through the.conduit much easier.