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Author Topic: Electrophorus Electric Bell  (Read 628 times)

Offline guest1289

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Electrophorus Electric Bell
« on: January 11, 2017, 08:24:05 PM »

    Basically,  combining the principle by which the 'Electrophorus' functions,   with the principle by which the     'Oxford Electric Bell'    functions,    so  :
      -  Firstly,  the clapper( the swinging metal sphere ) is charged by touching one 'bell',  and is then electrostatically repelled by it
       -  HERE IS WHERE MY IDEA COMES IN :  then instead of the clapper( metal sphere ) being attracted toward the second  'bell' in order to touch it,  instead,  it swings to touch an  'Earthed-Piece-Of-Metal'( a grounded piece of metal ).

    (   I don't know if this idea would function successfully,  or at all )

    Could It Result In A Perpetual Motion Device
    -  Would this idea result in less,  OR,  no wastage of the battery of this  'Oxford Electric Bell'  like device,  keeping in mind the principle by which the  Electrophorus functions,  in other words ,  could it result in perpetual-motion.
_______

     Very Interesting Things I Noticed About The  'Oxford Electric Bell'  :
       -  It is housed / sealed  within  2 layers of glass,  which makes me think,  that would almost certainly prevent the device from losing any of it's power to the atmosphere,   in the same way that the  'electret' in the   'Electrophorus'  eventually loses it's charge to the atmosphere.

       - The other thing I noticed is that the  'Oxford Electric Bell'  was possibly constructed in 1825, which is 6-years(?) before 'Faraday' published his theories unifying static-electricity with normal electricity,   and yet,  the inventor of the   'Oxford Electric Bell'  already seemed to be fully aware of that when he invented it,  since the  'Oxford Electric Bell'  is driven by a battery.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxford_Electric_Bell
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrophorus

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Electrophorus Electric Bell
« on: January 11, 2017, 08:24:05 PM »

Offline guest1289

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Re: Electrophorus Electric Bell
« Reply #1 on: January 11, 2017, 08:47:16 PM »
  For my idea to have any chance of working,  it would have to be housed under 2-layers of glass just like the   'Oxford Electric Bell' ,  however,  within those 2-layers of glass it should be as strong a vacuum as possible ( I don't know if it is air or vacuum under the 2-layers of glass in the actual  'Oxford Electric Bell'   )

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Offline pomodoro

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Re: Electrophorus Electric Bell
« Reply #2 on: January 12, 2017, 12:58:03 AM »
The charge on the electrophorous plate would attract the clapper and keep it nearby.  The attraction is even stronger if the clapper is then grounded. There is no repulsion as the induced charge is of opposite polarity.

Offline guest1289

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Re: Electrophorus Electric Bell
« Reply #3 on: January 13, 2017, 08:11:45 PM »
Quote
The charge on the electrophorous plate would attract the clapper and keep it nearby.  The attraction is even stronger if the clapper is then grounded. There is no repulsion as the induced charge is of opposite polarity.

     that sounds correct

     although, I was  hoping that the  pendulum like  kinetic/momentum  action of the clapper would do the work which is normally done manually in an electrophorus( the manual raising and lowering of the  metal-plate,    away from the  dielectric-plate( resin/wax/plastic),  and back on to the  dielectric-plate( resin/wax/plastic)   )

   In other words,   I was thinking that a clapper of a specific weight,  would succeed in swinging away from the dielectric-plate( resin/wax/plastic ),  and toward an  earthed-plate .

   And Of Course,  you would have to design a mechanism( mechanical, or electronic ) to  'earth' the clapper( a step in the manual electrophorus process ) before it swings away from the   dielectric-plate( resin/wax/plastic ) and toward an  earthed-plate ,    HOWEVER,    that does not occur in the  'Oxford Electric Bell' ,    so I think that step may not be required here
     (  This is where I am confused about how the 'Oxford Electric Bell' works  )

     I don't actually fully understand how the  'Oxford Electric Bell' works
        -  I  assume  there's an  electric-field potential   in  the  empty  space  between the positive and negative terminals of the battery,  so that when the clapper touches one terminal,  it somehow gets  electrostatically charged,   is then repelled from that terminal,   and attracted toward the other terminal,  and the process repeats
        -  However,  I never new that that  is a method of putting an electrostatic charge on an object, since I never studied that.
        -  It makes me wonder if there is also an   'electromagnetic'-field  potential   in  the  empty  space  between the positive and negative terminals of the battery,   if electromagnetism plays a part at all( you'd think not,  otherwise the clapper would not swing back and forth )

   (   Also,  I just read a 'http://physics.stackexchange.com/'  question,   to confirm that my other  design of this  device,    using  a   battery instead of an electrophorus,   would not function,   since there could not be an electric-field potential   in  the  empty  space  between just one  terminal of a battery and an  earthed-plate.
         I  thought this battery driven  version of my  design might draw 'Less',  Or,  'No' current from the battery( because there is no closed circuit ),  in other words,   that a battery would last for much longer  than a  charged dielectric-plate( resin/wax/plastic ),   unless a  charged dielectric-plate( resin/wax/plastic ) were housed in a vacuum   )
_______________

    I think this is related to other threads recent efforts to accomplish a   solid-state-electric-perpetually-running-device( perpetual-motion),   by using  fast  charging/discharging of capacitors in series circuits,  in other words,   when some capacitors discharge, that charges other capacitors,  so hopefully the device should keep running without any external input.
   (  but I think that by turbo-charging this process you would also increase the power leakage of the device out into the environment,  not just by heat,  but by leakage via other frequencies of the electromagnetic-spectrum,   this occurs in all devices,   even in devices enclosed in the highest possible vacuums   )

      But,  to keep these capacitor devices running longer,  what about  totally eliminating the wiring( as much as possible ) between the  internal-charge-plates of the capacitors  which lead to other capacitors
    -  or,   wrap/construct  a capacitor to totally encapsulate  any wiring that comes out of a capacitor,  so that  'all-electrical-flow'   'along-any-conductor'  of the device  will charge up a capacitor,  which will be discharged back into the device,   and to test how well the device is totally   encapsulated by  capacitors,   you could use some sort of radio receiver to ensure that it is not emitting any radio signal at all.
     


Offline guest1289

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Re: Electrophorus Electric Bell
« Reply #4 on: January 15, 2017, 01:25:26 AM »
guest1289
Quote
    I think this is related to other threads recent efforts to accomplish a   solid-state-electric-perpetually-running-device( perpetual-motion),   by using  fast  charging/discharging of capacitors in series circuits,  in other words,   when some capacitors discharge, that charges other capacitors,  so hopefully the device should keep running without any external input.
   (  but I think that by turbo-charging this process you would also increase the power leakage of the device out into the environment,  not just by heat,  but by leakage via other frequencies of the electromagnetic-spectrum,   this occurs in all devices,   even in devices enclosed in the highest possible vacuums   )

      But,  to keep these capacitor devices running longer,  what about  totally eliminating the wiring( as much as possible ) between the  internal-charge-plates of the capacitors  which lead to other capacitors
    -  or,   wrap/construct  a capacitor to totally encapsulate  any wiring that comes out of a capacitor,  so that  'all-electrical-flow'   'along-any-conductor'  of the device  will charge up a capacitor,  which will be discharged back into the device,   and to test how well the device is totally   encapsulated by  capacitors,   you could use some sort of radio receiver to ensure that it is not emitting any radio signal at all.

     I don't know if those 2 paragraphs I typed are correct or not

     I just read the wikipedia page for common capacitors,  and realize I don't fully understand how capacitors work,  even just in a simple closed loop circuit( containing a battery, a switch, a resistor, and a  capacitor )
     The diagram (  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:RC_switch.svg ) on the following page :
     https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capacitor

      So I don't understand if when a capacitor discharges,  if it is also discharges some energy/current from the battery within it's discharge,  or,  if it is just discharging the charge accumulated from the charge-separation process.
      And I don't know if during the  charge-separation process  in a common capacitor( when the battery power is applied to charge up the capacitor,  before it discharges ),  whether  or  not some current from the battery somehow flows through the capacitor.

    If,  a capacitor in the diagram (  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:RC_switch.svg ) on the following page :
     https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capacitor
     does not actually draw any energy from the battery( if it Does-Not discharge some energy/current from the battery within it's discharge,  and if no current from the battery flows through the capacitor during the charge up process ),  then that would be an overunity or perpetual-motion solid-state-device
      -  but I can't see how a capacitor could avoid discharging some energy from the battery within it's discharge

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Re: Electrophorus Electric Bell
« Reply #4 on: January 15, 2017, 01:25:26 AM »
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Offline pomodoro

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Re: Electrophorus Electric Bell
« Reply #5 on: January 15, 2017, 01:56:27 AM »
The cap is like an empty gas cylinder getting pressurized by pump, which is the battery. The resistor is like a restricting gas valve. The volume of the gas cylinder is the capacitance, the pressure of the pump is the voltage and the orifice size of the valve is the resistance (1/R) to be correct.
So you can see that work energy is required to fill up the cylinder. Not only that but you can also see that charging the cap with the fixed battery voltage is quite inefficient because it is like compressing a gas irreversibly .If you look up reversible vs irreversible compression you will understand why that is. The cap needs to be charged from a voltage that changes with the rate of change of the cap voltage itself for high efficiency.

 

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