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Author Topic: half-baked water and gravity  (Read 1216 times)

Offline webby1

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half-baked water and gravity
« on: April 26, 2017, 03:42:50 PM »
What happens?

There is a hose that can support itself but is very flexible as such that you can readily roll it up onto a drum.  You fill this hose with water and close one end of the hose and attach that end to the drum.  You then roll the hose up on the drum and with the drum on bearings you place that on the end of a lever, raise the lever up and then loosely attach the open end of the hose to a guide so that as you lower the lever and unroll the hose the hose stands up in the vertical.  When the lever is down and the hose is vertical you open the closed end of the hose and allow the water to flow into an identical hose\drum\lever that is down at the same height.

How much weight of the water is seen by the lever?
How much torque must be used to unroll the hose?
Does it make a difference if the closed end of the hose is feeding into a cavity in the center of the drum and it is the drum cavity that is closed?

I have not thought this all the way through,, but maybe??

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half-baked water and gravity
« on: April 26, 2017, 03:42:50 PM »

Offline sm0ky2

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Re: half-baked water and gravity
« Reply #1 on: April 26, 2017, 06:11:57 PM »
that thick stuff, like they use for the inflatable advertisement props, or a large haloween deco.
the kind of plastic that will straighten itself, if allowed to, when pressure builds up inside.
this will allow us to use the atmospheric pressure of the water to assist in gravitational translation.

the end that attaches to the barrel will have to be inserted at somewhat of an angle to prevent binding.
and there must be a valve or opening somewhere, that allows air-transfer, and atmospheric pressure to enter the barrel.

assuming the 'water level' of a straight/vertical hose is at a greater altitude than any part of the rolled hose.....
water will flow into the rolled hose.
to perform this action, the other end of each hose (the end not attached to the barrel) will have to have a
mechanism for releasing pressure, or feeding air back to the barrel.

basically, theres two approaches to the pressure problem, the easiest to implement would be holes in certain places,
this inherently causes bubbling and instability in motion.

the alternative would be to have hoses that feed air back and forth, through an alternative path than the water flows.
leaving only the necessity for one 'hole' to the outside. (preferably somewhere on the barrel or one of the outer traces)

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
forseeable issues::

1) where is the [guide] located physically with respect to the center of gravity during the vertical transition?
    This location will be key to reducing friction and adverse leveraging effects caused by the lifting of thew water
     in the tube.

2) Where is the vertical hose located with respect to the center of gravity when it reaches its' maximum?

3) what sort of open/closing mechanisms need to be implemented at key times to impart rotation to the barrel?
    and how it this facilitated?

4) is the barrel intended to couple to an external mechanism? or is this intended for demonstrational purposes only?
    this doesn't really matter in the conceptual stages, but when going to actual build phase, it should be considered.

5) how "full" (or empty) is the barrel at each moment around a full 360-degree rotation?
    any amount of air inside the barrel will displace an amount of water (depending on pressure/volume of the bubble)
    This has a two-fold effect on the center of gravity. [bear with me, I might get a bit wordy here]
    First, and foremost, the displaced volume has a mass (worth of water) which is not at that part of the barrel.
    More importantly, this mass is always NOT at the top. Meaning, it is always be counteracted by an equal and opposite
    mass as the bottom, which will act to stop rotation.
    Changes in pressure are governed by the equation e=mgh, with respect to the vertical volume of water vs the system
    as a whole. This will cause temperature changes in the 'bubble' which will translate to convection currents in the water
    volume, resulting in a scattering of momentum in every possible vector. This will also act to stop rotation, or more
    accurately, it will reduce forward momentum.  In most real-world situations this effect is negligible, however, in this
    particular set-up, the changes in temperature are proportional to the volume of the barrel which can be significant.
    The proportion will be the % of 'emptyness'.

There are far too many variables in the initial description, I hope this helps to narrow it down a bit.
As we define the parameters of this device, it will become more clear its' feasibility. (or lack thereof)


Offline webby1

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Re: half-baked water and gravity
« Reply #2 on: April 26, 2017, 06:38:43 PM »
I left it open for some of the specifics,, indeed.

This is a twist on stuff I was playing with when I was playing with screwd,, I never bothered to measure the "weight" as seen by the support for the drum,, nor how much weight was taken on by the tube\hose.

I simple slip coupling works a treat for allowing the hose to connect and all that logistics stuff,, and I am aware that the pressure within the wraps on the drum can create a torque.

The thing to focus on is that one end of the hose is open to the atmosphere,, the top end, and the other end is closed so that no water can leave the hose,, on the downward movement while the drum is unrolling the hose,, I used a piece of string to hold the top of the hose by the way and the hose I was using was way to stiff for what I am thinking with this.

Here is screwd,, it was a water pump that used entrained air pockets to lift the water up higher,, twice as high but half the quantity :)

It also used the air pockets within the wraps to build the head pressure needed to lift the water.

So it is a twist on what I can do with screwd,, what if I do not use it as a pump and with no entrained air pockets,, would the weight of the water stay on the support for the drum?  or would it be shifted somehow to the hose????  I did not see that shift but IIRC I did see some torque needed to unroll things,,  that only happened a few times by accident and I was not paying attention to what was happening since I was more focused on stopping my testbed from destroying itself :)

Offline webby1

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Re: half-baked water and gravity
« Reply #3 on: April 26, 2017, 10:54:25 PM »
Since the torque moment for a spiral is (pressure1-pressure2)*Area*radius

Should I then assume that P1 is going to be the head height+ 2r and P2 is going to be head height-2r?  since the wraps will be the same and r is the same than that moment will be times the turns.

What is funny is I don't think I ever noticed that much torque when all the wraps were full of water,, well it would not pump any water uphill above the top of the unit anyway.


Offline webby1

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Re: half-baked water and gravity
« Reply #4 on: April 26, 2017, 11:18:35 PM »
Here is a link for the explanation and some math.

http://lurkertech.com/water/pump/belcher/fish/

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Re: half-baked water and gravity
« Reply #4 on: April 26, 2017, 11:18:35 PM »
Sponsored links:




Offline webby1

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Re: half-baked water and gravity
« Reply #5 on: April 27, 2017, 12:07:25 AM »
I am pretty sure I am just missing something here,,

If the lever arm sees the full weight of the water on the way down then the other side of the lever arm could pick up a "loaded" drum\hose,, but you would still get to collect the energy from the water falling down the now vertical hose and filling up the next unit,,,

See,, that is problematic :)

I am assuming at this point that the torque needed must match whatever to balance out,, but maybe not???

Offline webby1

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Re: half-baked water and gravity
« Reply #6 on: April 27, 2017, 02:35:46 PM »
If I assume that the end of the hose sees the atmosphere then the wrap coming off and going up would have P1 as the head pressure and P2 as 0,, then using Ar would give me the torque.
As the drum\hose went down and the head goes up then the torque to rotate the drum should go up,, so the cost is not in "raising" the water it is in raising the pressure.

Fun little sidetrack,, but I will still need to test for it at some time.

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Re: half-baked water and gravity
« Reply #6 on: April 27, 2017, 02:35:46 PM »
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Offline webby1

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Re: half-baked water and gravity
« Reply #7 on: April 27, 2017, 03:46:59 PM »
That is all kind of interesting.

If an exoskeleton was made out of Aerogel so that it was almost mass-less,, then the "weight" of the exoskeleton would be negligible.

If then you were to seal the up end of the hose it is easy to imagine that as the drum\lever went down that the water would then want to fall back down taking the hose with it and wrap itself around the drum again,, so you would then need to hold the water top at the upper height which would then reduce the "weight" of the water that the lever sees.  If you were to secure the hose to the exoskeleton then you would need to hold the exoskeleton.

All of this can be done maybe by a change in pressure seen by the water.  The thing to keep in mind is that a higher positive pressure will want to make the drum roll up and a negative pressure will want to make the drum unroll and where the "weight" of the water is being observed, whether by the lever or something outside at a fixed point in gravity.

From there I ponder if gravity is needed at all,, if it is only a pressure reaction.  If it truely is only a pressure thing and the volume of the hose does not change,, then what??  Could you have a change in distance from the drum\hose relative to the end of the hose without moving your input?


Offline webby1

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Re: half-baked water and gravity
« Reply #8 on: April 27, 2017, 06:34:56 PM »
Is it the pressure or is it the change in pressure?

 

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