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Author Topic: anti-cap  (Read 3130 times)

Offline webby1

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anti-cap
« on: December 04, 2016, 06:01:26 PM »
For lack of a better name :)

Have you ever hooked a polarized cap up backwards?

Ever notice the stable voltage level, and then the break-over voltage level?

Ever notice how the current behaves when you cross the break-over level?

I just blew a small cap up but it hit about 1.4A right as it blew,, not bad for a 25V 22uf cap,, I was trying to get it up to a large'ish current but it increased in current so fast I could not turn the voltage down fast enough to stop the blow.

With others that I was being more careful with I could get it up to a sustained current throughput,, and then I could also use my brushless pulsed DC motor to supply an AC across the cap while it was reversed charged and get some interesting pulse current through it.

In a way it kind of acts like a Zener diode.

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anti-cap
« on: December 04, 2016, 06:01:26 PM »

Offline webby1

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Re: anti-cap
« Reply #1 on: December 05, 2016, 11:18:45 PM »
Funny thing :)

To have the amount of energy stored within a cap as used from a battery to charge it,,
 you would need to charge the cap up to √2*source voltage from the very same source :)

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Offline webby1

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Re: anti-cap
« Reply #2 on: December 06, 2016, 12:17:39 AM »
I mentioned this little funny thing about a capacitor because the other day I recounted to a friend how I learned this very thing.

It dawned on me that those that know this know it, and most likely do not even think about it but those that do not, don't know it.

The loss is not in discharging the cap,, the energy that is stored within the cap is fully recoverable,, the loss is while charging the cap directly from a source,, say a battery or another cap.

I also realized that it is voltage that is being given up,, just a little while ago I thought it was the magnetic field,, but I think in actuality it is voltage,, or more over it is voltage per amp,, which might also include the flux field or some component of it.


Offline webby1

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Re: anti-cap
« Reply #3 on: December 06, 2016, 03:56:47 PM »
What is interesting is when you run the numbers for 2 caps connected together,, not just any caps but variable caps.

Take 2 identical variable caps that have a range of 0F to 1F, connect them together in parallel,, set one cap to 1F and the other to 0F, charge the caps up to 10V.

Now step by step adjust the 0F cap up to 1F.

Not only look at the coulombs but the energy moved as well, and the energy stored.

If then the cap to cap dump looses 1\2 the energy,, and if charging the cap looses 1\2 the energy,, both of these are very well documented,, then doing it this way doubles the energy moved.

The stored energy is equal to the energy put into charging the caps up to the starting 10V with both caps being at 7.01V,, but the coulombs are greater,, so how would they get there?


Offline webby1

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Re: anti-cap
« Reply #4 on: December 06, 2016, 06:48:36 PM »
At this point I would assume that if I left the PSU connected that I would see the "extra" current come from the PSU as well as it would keep both caps charged up to 10V instead of them dropping to 7.01V.

The trick then is not to change the voltage to charge the cap but rather to change the capacitance.

Now all this also makes me wonder if the dielectric is an active component, meaning that there is no lost energy but rather the dielectric takes energy to polarize, but when the cap is discharged that *specific* energy is not returned with the way we use things.

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Re: anti-cap
« Reply #4 on: December 06, 2016, 06:48:36 PM »
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Offline webby1

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Re: anti-cap
« Reply #5 on: December 06, 2016, 07:10:22 PM »
An analogy.

I have 2 identical vessels that are tall and not to wide, open at the top and closed at the bottom, there is a pipe that comes out of the bottom of one vessel and goes down and back up and connects to the bottom of the other vessel, there is a flow valve in the connecting pipe.

Close the valve and with both vessels at the same height one is filled up with water, the energy stored is calculated,,, open the valve and allow the water to flow into the other vessel.  When the water is stable both vessels have the same amount of water but the stored energy of said water is only 1\2 of what there was to start with.

If we then examine what happened when the valve was opened,, the stored potential accelerated the water down and up the connecting pipe, the water left the pipe with momentum and continued upwards until it almost reached the surface level of the water in the other vessel,, a pretty little fountain.

Gravity provided the potential that was converted into an acceleration and then gravity provided for another input of deceleration that stopped the water,, then gravity pulled that water back down until it came to rest on either the bottom of the vessel or the water that was in the vessel,, all of this energy was not used by "US" but it was transferred anyway and so to "US" it was lost.

This time the empty vessel is lifted so that its bottom is just below the surface level of the water in the other vessel, this time there is a lever holding the vessel up in the air and this time when gravity is pulling the water and vessel down we extract work from that,,

You have the same amount of stored potential to start with, you have transferred the same amount of water and therefore you are left with the same amount of stored potential within the water, this time however you have collected and used the energy that was lost the other way.


If the 2 vessels are the plates and the water is the dielectric and the electric field is gravity,, is there anything lost or is it that we just do not use what is there?

Offline webby1

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Re: anti-cap
« Reply #6 on: December 06, 2016, 07:20:38 PM »
In the scenario of the adjustable caps,, the one that is going from 0F to 1F is the anti-cap and it will take the charge carriers from the dielectric if allowed to do so.

A coil with its flux field surrounding it is a capacitor, there is an amount of stored electric potential held in the flux field,, could you view the surrounding "space" as the dielectric?  or how about the wire?

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Re: anti-cap
« Reply #6 on: December 06, 2016, 07:20:38 PM »
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Offline webby1

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Re: anti-cap
« Reply #7 on: December 06, 2016, 09:45:48 PM »
I suppose it would be a good thing to correctly identify the parts within a coil "capacitor".

Could it be that the inductance in a coil is equal to the capacitance in a capacitor?

Is the flux the dielectric?? or is it a measure of capacitance??

What part does the wire play???

Ideas,,, suggestions,,  either are welcome :)

Offline webby1

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Re: anti-cap
« Reply #8 on: December 06, 2016, 10:13:25 PM »
Here is a quick plot of the cap while going from 0F to 1F starting with a 10V charge.

Offline Magluvin

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Re: anti-cap
« Reply #9 on: December 07, 2016, 04:01:24 AM »
Supposedly you can connect 2 electrolytics in series, - to - or + to +, and it becomes bipolar, and used in audio crossovers and such.  So the caps can apparently take on currents of opposite direction, to a certain extent apparently. ;D In audio the signal through the caps in not like putting solid DC across the cap in reverse. Be careful and wear goggles. The Al can of the cap can pop off the cap altogether and be a projectile. The split at the top is suppose to give relief in such a situation and split, but that is not always the case. Had a boss get hit in the eye repairing a tv. Tried to sue the cap co as the whole can hit him in the eye. Dont know if he had gotten anything from that.

Mags

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Re: anti-cap
« Reply #9 on: December 07, 2016, 04:01:24 AM »
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Offline webby1

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Re: anti-cap
« Reply #10 on: December 07, 2016, 06:22:09 AM »
Thanks for the late warning :)

In my case the rubber plug that holds the leads blew and let the can pop up,, did not go any further but it did make a loud bang,, kind of like blowing up a zener :)

Offline webby1

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Re: anti-cap
« Reply #11 on: December 07, 2016, 07:40:24 AM »
I am working over a few views in a spreadsheet,,

However,, think about this :)

If you had a rotary variable cap that could go from 0F to 1F and you had another 1F cap,, these two caps are hooked in series and the rotary is set to 0F and then the system is brought up to 10V.

Now as the rotary cap is turned increasing the capacitance and therefor dropping the voltage of the system,, no arguments there,, nor would there be any arguments with the loss in energy, the given on that is that it is "converted into heat",,, or not.

What you would be able to measure is the torque being applied on the rotary cap,, it would want to turn itself into the highest capacitance condition.

to me this little part refutes the "converted into heat",, it is wasted with a cap to cap dump sure,, absolutely with the way we currently use things,, but not heat per say.

Back to thinking about those charged plates and coil equivalencies.

Oh-by-the-way,, if the cap is turned into the 1F condition and charged and then rotated into the 0F condition,,, look at all of that gain in energy :)


Offline Magluvin

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Re: anti-cap
« Reply #12 on: December 07, 2016, 07:41:31 AM »
Ah. Was it an axial lead cap? Thats how they are suppose to blow at the rubber end. The ones with 2 leads out one end are suppose to blow the top where the can is like scored like the opening of a soda or beer can.

Mags

Offline Magluvin

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Re: anti-cap
« Reply #13 on: December 07, 2016, 07:46:59 AM »
double post

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Offline webby1

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Re: anti-cap
« Reply #14 on: December 07, 2016, 02:22:59 PM »
It was the kind with 2 leads coming out of the same end.

I need to pull a bunch more off of some old parts I have lying around so I can do some more :)

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Re: anti-cap
« Reply #14 on: December 07, 2016, 02:22:59 PM »

 

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