Cookies-law

Cookies help us to bring you our services at overunity.com . If you use this website and our services you declare yourself okay with using cookies .More Infos here:
http://www.overunity.com/5553/privacy-policy/
If you do not agree with storing cookies, please leave this website now. Many thanks for your understanding.
Amazon Warehouse Deals ! Now even more Deep Discounts ! Check out these great prices on slightly used or just opened once only items.I always buy my gadgets via these great Warehouse deals ! Highly recommended ! Many thanks for supporting OverUnity.com this way.

FireMatch

FireMatch

CCKnife

CCKnife

CCTool

CCTool

Magpi Magazine

Magpi Magazine Free Rasberry Pi Magazine

Battery Recondition

Battery Recondition

Arduino

Ultracaps

YT Subscribe

Gravity Machines

Tesla-Ebook

Magnet Secrets

Lindemann Video

Navigation

Products

Statistics

  • *Total Members: 82043
  • *Latest: brf69

  • *Total Posts: 494028
  • *Total Topics: 14519
  • *Online Today: 44
  • *Most Online: 103
(December 19, 2006, 11:27:19 PM)
  • *Users: 4
  • *Guests: 67
  • *Total: 71

Facebook

Author Topic: TD replications  (Read 42721 times)

Offline Floor

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 694
Re: TD replications
« Reply #30 on: December 04, 2016, 05:41:51 AM »
@luc

1. A few degrees of rotation  of RO toward 90 deg. off from parallel with SL
(3 to 5 deg. ?)... is the optimal starting position for RO (in the same direction
it will rotate when RO's force is measured).

2.  But also RO must hit it's stop at 90 deg. off from parallel to SLand no farther.

A full 90 degs. of rotation will not be acheived.

3. Im not certain that the counter weight on the RO scale indicator as is.....
is giving the needed effect.

If it is, then,
      when there are no magnetic force interactions Between RO and SL (one magnet removed ?)
the RO scale indicator will ballance (have no tendancy to rotate by gravity's pull at any
degree of it's rotation).

                       Don't rush it man......
                          It's bound to take some time to dial it all in.

                    Nice work
                           floor

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: TD replications
« Reply #30 on: December 04, 2016, 05:41:51 AM »

Offline gotoluc

  • elite_member
  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 2840
Re: TD replications
« Reply #31 on: December 04, 2016, 03:14:31 PM »
  Good work, Luc!
 It is indeed curious.  I've been thinking of ways to convert the action here to a continuous motion, using gravity to drop an upper magnet (at right angles) in close proximity to the lower magnet prior to the "twisting phase" - then using energy from the twisting phase to raise the upper magnet back up to the starting height then turn it 90deg to the starting position. That is the more difficult action to resolve (for me). 


This would be a small model involving oscillating (engage-disengage) as well as rotary (torque) motions ... 
A small test device that would keep moving would be an awesome Christmas present to the world!


Thanks Dr Jones for your post and thinking of ways to convert this action into continuous motion.

Luc

Offline gotoluc

  • elite_member
  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 2840
Re: TD replications
« Reply #32 on: December 04, 2016, 03:34:33 PM »
1. A few degrees of rotation  of RO toward 90 deg. off from parallel with SL
(3 to 5 deg. ?)... is the optimal starting position for RO (in the same direction
it will rotate when RO's force is measured).

Not sure I understand your suggestion

2.  But also RO must hit it's stop at 90 deg. off from parallel to SLand no farther.

Are you recommending the output torque arm (RO) should stop at the center of the torque cycle? (see chart below)
If so, why?... other then it would be next to free for the input torque arm to return to starting point


A full 90 degs. of rotation will not be acheived.

Why not?

3. Im not certain that the counter weight on the RO scale indicator as is.....
is giving the needed effect.

If it is, then,
      when there are no magnetic force interactions Between RO and SL (one magnet removed ?)
the RO scale indicator will ballance (have no tendancy to rotate by gravity's pull at any
degree of it's rotation).

The counter weight was perfectly adjusted to create a zero gravity influence where ever the rotation arm is positioned. It was adjusted prior to bringing it in proximity of any ferromagnetic material or magnets.


Thanks


Luc

Offline Floor

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 694
Re: TD replications
« Reply #33 on: December 04, 2016, 10:51:30 PM »
@ Gotoluc
QUOTE from Gotoluc
"Are you recommending the output torque arm (RO) should
stop at the center of the torque cycle? (see chart below)" END QUOTE
    yes

QUOTE from Gotoluc
"If so, why?... other then it would be next to free for the
input torque arm to return to starting point
END QUOTE

No its just because it would be next to free for the input torque
arm to return to starting point.  Thanks
.....................................................................
QUOTE from Gotoluc
"Not sure I understand your suggestion"
END QUOTE

In general, the maximum rotation motivating force is available
during the first part of the rotation....  this is not true during the
VERY FIRST FEW degrees of  rotation away from exact parallel.
                because
The rotation motivating forces toward clock wise rotation are in
balance with the rotation motivating forces toward counter clock
wise, when RO is exactly parallel to SL

This cw to ccw balance shifts greatly.... within a few degrees of
rotation from exact parallel.

While

The linear motivating force (which pushing SL away) is at its absolute
maximum potential when RO and SL are exactly parallel.  This linear
force decreases substantially with a few degrees of rotation.

There is no need to do input against this absolute maximum, linear repelling
force, when the RO out doesn't give back its maximum until after
a few degrees of rotation from exact parallel.

                  thanks luc
                       best wishes
                                  floor

Offline gotoluc

  • elite_member
  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 2840
Re: TD replications
« Reply #34 on: December 05, 2016, 08:30:47 AM »
Thanks for the clarification floor


I'll re-measure the approximate 75 degree of rotation available up to the 90 center to see how it effects the gain.


Luc

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: TD replications
« Reply #34 on: December 05, 2016, 08:30:47 AM »
Sponsored links:




Offline DrJones

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 8
Re: TD replications
« Reply #35 on: December 05, 2016, 10:13:14 AM »
  Mechanical work - which is one form of energy - is defined in basic terms as
Work = Force X Distance moved.


  For a rotating object, we apply a torque to get it to move/rotate.  Also, the distance moved = distance along a portion of a circle called an "arc", which = R x Theta (where the angle Theta is measured in radians= actually, unitless).
Then
Work = Force X Distance moved  = Force x R x Theta  = Torque x Theta, [/size]


So the work = mechanical energy = Torque x Theta, not just Torque alone.


I'm concerned that Theta has been left out in the analysis so far in this thread - and hope that Theta will be included in the future.

Offline wattsup

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2617
    • Spin Conveyance Theory - For a New Perspective...
Re: TD replications
« Reply #36 on: December 05, 2016, 01:42:53 PM »
@gotoluc

Referring only to your videos 3 with the rectangular neos, I have always liked mechanical puzzles of weight and motion but this device I see is giving me a potential quandary.

You measured your reference data by putting your scale on the tip of each arm and lifting to record the measured "pull" weight at each increment.

But in your experiment the arm is being lifted by and from the center shaft via the length of one neo magnet so it has to fight against the full leverage of the arm, so the actual mechanical process of the experiment is not pulling the arm from the tip as you have tabulated.

Seems to me the base data should be taken at a point on the arm that starts at the shaft and goes not more then half the length of the neo magnet from the shaft since it is the shaft centered neo magnet's responding length that is turning the shaft that is lifting the arm.

What would your opinions be. So I am basically asking "Should the base data be taken at point 1 or 2 on the below drawing?", since for me the lift force required should be greater at point 1 then point 2. Or, am I blind to an obvious simplicity. I do not know for sure and maybe even if the data was taken at point 1, the final ratios would be the same and the final percentage outcome would also be the same.

By the way @gotoluc, your worksmanship is so fine and thanks for your always inquisitive and clear videos and works.

wattsup

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: TD replications
« Reply #36 on: December 05, 2016, 01:42:53 PM »
Sponsored links:




Offline webby1

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3040
Re: TD replications
« Reply #37 on: December 05, 2016, 01:56:44 PM »
At point 2 there is less force than point 1 BUT the (length of arm * Force) will be the same for both points.

((2*PI)/360)*degrees rotated <--- this is Radians.

Multiply this by the Nm or Lb/Ft,, with Nm you need not convert the answer to get J.

Torque is length of arm * the force on the arm.

If you are going from step to step then you take ((torqueA + torqueB)*0.5)
Where torqueA is the previous step and torqueB is the current step so you have the average step torque, or the other way around where torqueA is the current step and torqueB is the next step,, but you need to do it the same way.

then if you used a spreadsheet you would have a line that would be

=((2*pi)/360)*degreesrotatted*((torqueA*torqueB)*.5)


Offline gotoluc

  • elite_member
  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 2840
Re: TD replications
« Reply #38 on: December 05, 2016, 04:47:52 PM »
Thanks for the clarification floor

I'll re-measure the approximate 75 degree of rotation available up to the 90 center to see how it effects the gain.

Luc


Well, I did the test and the results are surprisingly the same 31% gain.
In the previous test 3 the output rotation arm (Ro) traveled 140 degrees and the results were also 31% gain.
See both test data below. First is test 4 and the second is test 3
The disengage in test 4 is unmeasurable (less the 5 grams)


Luc

Offline gotoluc

  • elite_member
  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 2840
Re: TD replications
« Reply #39 on: December 05, 2016, 04:58:26 PM »
@gotoluc

Referring only to your videos 3 with the rectangular neos, I have always liked mechanical puzzles of weight and motion but this device I see is giving me a potential quandary.

You measured your reference data by putting your scale on the tip of each arm and lifting to record the measured "pull" weight at each increment.

But in your experiment the arm is being lifted by and from the center shaft via the length of one neo magnet so it has to fight against the full leverage of the arm, so the actual mechanical process of the experiment is not pulling the arm from the tip as you have tabulated.

Seems to me the base data should be taken at a point on the arm that starts at the shaft and goes not more then half the length of the neo magnet from the shaft since it is the shaft centered neo magnet's responding length that is turning the shaft that is lifting the arm.

What would your opinions be. So I am basically asking "Should the base data be taken at point 1 or 2 on the below drawing?", since for me the lift force required should be greater at point 1 then point 2. Or, am I blind to an obvious simplicity. I do not know for sure and maybe even if the data was taken at point 1, the final ratios would be the same and the final percentage outcome would also be the same.

By the way @gotoluc, your worksmanship is so fine and thanks for your always inquisitive and clear videos and works.

wattsup


Hi wattsup


the reason for the distance on the arms is I originally built it to measure foot pound of torque.
To my knowledge this is the way to measure foot pound or in my newer tests foot grams.


Hope this helps?


Luc

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: TD replications
« Reply #39 on: December 05, 2016, 04:58:26 PM »
Sponsored links:




Offline Sacregraal

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 2
Re: TD replications
« Reply #40 on: December 05, 2016, 05:05:45 PM »
Hello Gotoluc ,

I follow your work for many years now , and it's always a great pleasure to see your vidéos ...

Looking at your 3th vidéo for the TD réplication , I think there is a measure missing .
You've got 3 Step
 1 - you engage the linéare arm ( it's the first data for the input work )
2 - you mesure the output torque ( it 's the only output work )
3 - you disengage the linéare arm ( it' the seconde data for the input work )

but
4 - you need to reset the position of the ouput arm for complete the cycle , i will be curious of the work it need ... This is for me a third data for the input work )

Cheers
SG

Offline Floor

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 694
Re: TD replications
« Reply #41 on: December 06, 2016, 02:38:42 AM »
QUOTE from DrJones
"So the work = mechanical energy = Torque x Theta, not just Torque alone.
I'm concerned that Theta has been left out in the analysis so far in this thread -
 and hope that Theta will be included in the future. "END QUOTE

 Two questions

1. The conversion of torque to work is needed,
          in order
to state the actions in terms of Joules of work. Correct ? 

2. But  that conversion to joules, will not change the RATIOS
 of the measurements to each other, will it ?

                        thanks for being on board
                                   floor

Offline Floor

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 694
Re: TD replications
« Reply #42 on: December 06, 2016, 03:12:14 AM »
@Gotoluc

DrJones makes a good point of clarification.

The reasons for my usage of round levers (pulleys) and conversions
of degrees of rotation into the linear fall of the weights are probably
pretty clear at this point.

I stopped short of the conversion of grams into newton, averaging, and
calculations of joules. 

But even, simply the degrees times weight of each set compared to each other
will still give the same ratios ? as  their conversions to joules will to each other ???

I have asked DrJones this question ?

PS
      Thanks for the additional data
                       
                           floor

Offline Floor

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 694
Re: TD replications
« Reply #43 on: December 06, 2016, 07:39:24 PM »
@Wattsup

QUOTE from Wattsup
"But in your experiment the arm is being lifted by and from the center shaft via
the length of one neo magnet so it has to fight against the full leverage of the
arm, so the actual mechanical process of the experiment is not pulling the arm
 from the tip as you have tabulated. "  END QUOTE

I'm guessing you have already realized that the lifting on the (rotating magnet)
indicator / lift arm is against the magnetic force between the RO magnet and the SL
magnet.

It takes a little while to grok the motions and interactions in the "TD" unit, and then
yet more time, for this to settle in.  No worries though, after 2 years of the TD, I'm
still some times befuddled.

                   regards
                      floor
                 

Offline Floor

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 694
Re: TD replications
« Reply #44 on: December 07, 2016, 03:31:10 PM »
@Luc

some observations

Your build successfully demonstrates that the SL becomes nearly
 free from the linear motivating forces between it and RO when
RO is at 90 from parallel to SL.

SL needs to be very far from RO,  before RO will be nearly free
from rotation motivating forces, between it and SL.

also see the attached files.

your device needs further modifications and dialing in.

                     best wishes
                             floor

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: TD replications
« Reply #44 on: December 07, 2016, 03:31:10 PM »

 

Share this topic to your favourite Social and Bookmark site

Please SHARE this topic at: