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Author Topic: TD replications  (Read 28275 times)

Offline Cairun

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Re: TD replications
« Reply #165 on: February 27, 2017, 04:05:20 AM »
Floor and Luc,


Even though I can't conduct experiments while away from home.
I will continue to design a self runner using Luc's setup(in a linear reciprocating desing using 2 slides).
I hope to finish design and order all purchased parts before I get back home
so I can start the build immediately when I do get back.


Regards,
Alex


Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: TD replications
« Reply #165 on: February 27, 2017, 04:05:20 AM »

Offline gotoluc

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Re: TD replications
« Reply #166 on: February 27, 2017, 05:10:29 PM »
Great Alex

Maybe all I'll do is put the 2 slides together to test the results using the 6" ceramic magnets and wait to see your mechanical design.

Thanks for staying on it.

Luc

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy


Offline Cairun

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Re: TD replications
« Reply #167 on: February 27, 2017, 07:32:44 PM »
Great Alex

Maybe all I'll do is put the 2 slides together to test the results using the 6" ceramic magnets and wait to see your mechanical design.

Thanks for staying on it.

Luc


Luc,


That sounds good.  I will try to get the mechanical design out as soon as I can.
But, I will be working 72 hours work weeks so it might take a while since I will have little spare time.


Have you tried to line up multiple output magnets(your cascade idea)to increase output stroke?
If that increases output stroke without dramatically increasing inpu work, then I would like to incorporate that into my design.


Regards,
Alex

Offline gotoluc

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Re: TD replications
« Reply #168 on: February 27, 2017, 10:09:53 PM »
Luc,

That sounds good.  I will try to get the mechanical design out as soon as I can.
But, I will be working 72 hours work weeks so it might take a while since I will have little spare time.

Have you tried to line up multiple output magnets(your cascade idea)to increase output stroke?
If that increases output stroke without dramatically increasing inpu work, then I would like to incorporate that into my design.

Regards,
Alex

Hi Alex,

Just an hour ago I came up with a new simple design that will give us more test data on the performance of a 6 inch output stoke multiplied 4 times.
It's simple enough that I should be able to build it and have it ready to test in 2 to 3 days.
From those test results we should be able to decide the direction we want to take.
So just stay focused on your work as there's nothing to do till then.

Thanks

Luc


Offline Cairun

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Re: TD replications
« Reply #169 on: February 28, 2017, 03:30:42 AM »
Hi Alex,

Just an hour ago I came up with a new simple design that will give us more test data on the performance of a 6 inch output stoke multiplied 4 times.
It's simple enough that I should be able to build it and have it ready to test in 2 to 3 days.
From those test results we should be able to decide the direction we want to take.
So just stay focused on your work as there's nothing to do till then.

Thanks

Luc


Luc,

A design with a 6 in output stroke and 4x the force?
That sounds exciting!
I will pause on the design on my part for now, then.
I look forward to the result of your tests.

Regards,
Alex



Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: TD replications
« Reply #169 on: February 28, 2017, 03:30:42 AM »
Sponsored links:




Offline Floor

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Re: TD replications
« Reply #170 on: February 28, 2017, 03:42:20 PM »

Below are some png files / drawings that illustrate the alignments / actions of
 Luc's "mechanical magnet torque amplifier".

                    please find the attached

CascadeStageiMatching 1.png file  and the
CascadeStageiMatching 2.png file

                      regards
                           floor

Offline Floor

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Re: TD replications
« Reply #171 on: February 28, 2017, 08:37:09 PM »

Notes

1.
I have not (above) illustrated all details of the magnet configurations.
Luc's last video measured a specific arrangement.. which may be /
probably is actually some what different than the (2) above illustrations.
Those illustrations are to give the (in general) of that configuration.

2. a device utilizing large force over a short distance.... can have excessive
energy wasted... due to small amounts of slack / play / slop at the junctions
of its mechanical / moving parts.

3. Translating a     large force / short stroke     into a     long stroke / lower force
before any one way clutch (which will have play before it engages) will
be more efficient than the other way around.

4.  There is no energy lost in the trading of greater force at less distance for
less force but greater distance... e.g. using a large diameter output pulley.
(above illustrations) 

5. The diameter of the round gear beneath the rack gear (above illustrations)
should cause it to rotate by 90 degrees during the magnet stroke.

5. The eccentric pulley (illustrated above) anticipates only a 90 degree rotation.

6. that output pulley might as well be eccentric ..... even if out put force is
MOSTLY constant over the distance traveled.... but not if output force is
very constant over the entire distance traveled .

               best wishes
                    floor

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: TD replications
« Reply #171 on: February 28, 2017, 08:37:09 PM »
Sponsored links:




Offline Nonlinear

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Re: TD replications
« Reply #172 on: March 01, 2017, 02:52:04 PM »
Luc,

You have said in one of your posts, that you don’t have sufficient knowledge of mechanics to correctly calculate the energy efficiency of your devices. You have also asked for help in this regard. Here is the assistance you were looking for; see the attached files.

I have integrated the work, both the input and the output, and calculated the efficiency of the device. If your measurement data is correct, then the coefficient of performance is COP=161.3%.

This would be quite impressive, and I could design a generator on this idea, but I have doubts about the validity of your results. For example when you are taking the first measurement, then the slider magnet is completely under the wheel, is that correct? Then as you pull the rotor magnet over the slider there is a repulsive force between them. So far so good. Then when the slider is released and shifted to the farthest position from the rotor, then you continue measuring the force required to pull the rotor away from the bottom position. What does not make sense to me is that you are now measuring an attractive force between the magnets, even though I would expect a repulsive force to persist.

A repulsive force existed between the magnets until the rotor covered the slider, and the repulsive force made the slider move away. This same repulsive force supposed to still exist (even though smaller) while you are pulling the rotor away from above the slider. Which means that during the second half of the measurement the magnets supposed to perform work, and you supposed to push the rotor (not pull) during the measurement.

Can you please cast some light on the exact procedure of measurement, polarities of magnets and preferably dimensions as well? Thanks. Great workmanship!

Offline Floor

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Re: TD replications
« Reply #173 on: March 01, 2017, 03:17:07 PM »
@Nonlinear

Gotoluc has several videos up on various of these magnet interactions.
Watching the set of these short videos should give you a comfortable
understanding of the interactions.   It can take some time to gain familiarity
with the configurations.

There are 7 videos here by "seethisvid" that give some explanations of the
magnet's polar alignments, motions and resulting force vectors.



http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x59r978
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x5an8hd_rtangsld2_tech
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x5d7hdv_lucs-1_tech
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x5d7ip9_lucs-2_tech

Also there are some drawings and a pdf file, upon the previous pages of this topic

          floor


Offline Floor

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Re: TD replications
« Reply #174 on: March 01, 2017, 04:31:25 PM »
@Nonlinear

I don't think Luc has stated the dimensions of the magnets he is using,
but I have assumed... that they are the same as those I have been using ?

     see this link below

http://overunity.com/14311/work-from-2-magnets-19-output-2/msg489791/#msg489791

                   Thanks for the conversions to newtons / joules
                      best wishes
                            floor

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: TD replications
« Reply #174 on: March 01, 2017, 04:31:25 PM »
Sponsored links:




Offline shylo

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  • Posts: 459
Re: TD replications
« Reply #175 on: March 01, 2017, 11:18:13 PM »
do the work at the bench and you will see there is more than what were told to look at.
You can build a rotor that has a cam that moves the force of the magnet attached to move in and out,
But it will find balance, inject an offset to that balance , at the proper time.
You won't get free power, but you can get it down to the point where it is virtually free.
Just what I've seen so far.
artv

Offline gotoluc

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Re: TD replications
« Reply #176 on: March 02, 2017, 05:33:33 PM »
Luc,

You have said in one of your posts, that you don’t have sufficient knowledge of mechanics to correctly calculate the energy efficiency of your devices. You have also asked for help in this regard. Here is the assistance you were looking for; see the attached files.

I have integrated the work, both the input and the output, and calculated the efficiency of the device. If your measurement data is correct, then the coefficient of performance is COP=161.3%.

This would be quite impressive, and I could design a generator on this idea, but I have doubts about the validity of your results. For example when you are taking the first measurement, then the slider magnet is completely under the wheel, is that correct? Then as you pull the rotor magnet over the slider there is a repulsive force between them. So far so good. Then when the slider is released and shifted to the farthest position from the rotor, then you continue measuring the force required to pull the rotor away from the bottom position. What does not make sense to me is that you are now measuring an attractive force between the magnets, even though I would expect a repulsive force to persist.

A repulsive force existed between the magnets until the rotor covered the slider, and the repulsive force made the slider move away. This same repulsive force supposed to still exist (even though smaller) while you are pulling the rotor away from above the slider. Which means that during the second half of the measurement the magnets supposed to perform work, and you supposed to push the rotor (not pull) during the measurement.

Can you please cast some light on the exact procedure of measurement, polarities of magnets and preferably dimensions as well? Thanks. Great workmanship!

Thanks Nonlinear for taking the time to verify my calculation and present your data.

I made a video for you in hopes of making the process clearer to understand .

Link to video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z6sbIgr2L8A

Please feel free to ask questions if needed

Regards

Luc


Offline Floor

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Re: TD replications
« Reply #177 on: March 03, 2017, 03:07:58 PM »
@Gotoluc

Great work Luc !

I am setting up to do measurements / replication on you last demo.
This will be of an output stroke only.

If... I also do the input stroke measurements, they will have to be
of a straight on (parallel) stroke, and one magnet only (input)....
to one magnet only (output)

@all readers

These experiments are being done on the fly. (not perfect)
My measurement process will be only an approximation of
Luc's process (not identical).

please find the attached PNG file

                   regards


Offline Nonlinear

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Re: TD replications
« Reply #178 on: March 03, 2017, 08:33:18 PM »
Thanks Luc for the video, now your results make more sense.
There are several mistakes in your approach and measurements, which may be very well the cause for the detection of COP>1. The biggest mistake is to judge the efficiency of a device based on average forces. That is completely unscientific, and it can very easily mislead you. The total work must be measured and calculated, like in my spreadsheet.

The second mistake is ignoring the role of measurement errors. A measurement is never 100% accurate, there is always some error in it. The experimenter must be aware of the expected maximum error margin of his measurements, and disclose it together with the measurement results. Without this, the data can not be taken seriously. For example the best resolution of your scale is 5g which is extremely low and produces a very large error if you are measuring forces in the range of 0 to 100g. When you are measuring 100g then the uncertainty of the measured result is 10g, which is 10%. The correct way of showing your measurement result is: 100g +-5g, or with other words, the real force could be anything from 100-5=95g to 100+5=105g, the error margin is 105-95=10g, which is 10% of the measured value of 100g. Therefore if you find a COP=1.1 with such large error margin of measurement, then your measurements are pretty much useless to prove anything. If you are measuring even less than 100g, like in some of your measurement series measuring 5, 10, 20g etc. then your error margin is so huge that the data is of no value to prove anything. If your scale has a low resolution, then build a device that requires the measurement of about 100 times larger forces than the 5g resolution. If this is not practical, then use a scale that has got sufficient resolution and accuracy to produce around 1% (or less) measurement error.

The third mistake is not to measure the complete cycle of movement. For example webby1 was trying to convince you few pages back that you have to measure the 4th part of the cycle as well, in one of your earlier devices. He finally succeeded in this effort in post:
http://overunity.com/16987/td-replications/msg496971/#msg496971 and you provided the data in:
http://overunity.com/16987/td-replications/msg496974/#msg496974
After you have measured this 4th part of the cycle and taken it into account, then your (still incorrect) averaging calculations showed only 10% of excess work, which can very easily attributed to the other mistakes already mentioned.

In this case of rotary device this is not as critical as in the previous devices, but I would still recommend you to measure the complete cycle. Meaning, two rotary magnets pass in sequence above the slider. Please also measure the output force as well at least 10 times, like after each 1mm movement.

I was trying to get a manual feel of the forces in your device using two neodymium magnets of 4x2x1cm, which I don’t recommend to anyone. These magnets are just too powerful, and if one doesn’t have very strong fingers, they can also harm you! But, I have got no ceramic magnets of rectangular shape right now, so can not do the safe version.

Anyway, keep up the good work, and if the COP is still higher than say 1.2 even after fixing these mistakes, then it should be possible to build at least a perpetuum mobile using this magnet arrangement. If the COP would be really 1.6 like in your measurements, then the machine should be able to generate useful output power as well, besides just running itself.

Thanks Floor for the links and the drawing.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy


Offline gotoluc

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Re: TD replications
« Reply #179 on: March 03, 2017, 11:54:54 PM »
Here is a sneak peek of the v2.0 Magnet Torque Amplifier device before it's all assembled and unable to see the internal design mechanism.

Link to video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BMVES42VbzA

Test results should come in the next couple of days

Stay tuned

Luc

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: TD replications
« Reply #179 on: March 03, 2017, 11:54:54 PM »

 

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