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Author Topic: Magnets, motion and measurement  (Read 6469 times)

Offline Floor

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Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
« Reply #15 on: February 11, 2017, 04:31:24 AM »
@deiter

        I think maybe your theory has some valid elements to it. I don't
have a better one.

      but in contemplating the magnetic field I come up with this model.

A simple mobius strip has only a single 1/2 twist in the ribbon....but also a mobius strip
can have many twists rather than just a 1/2 twist.   

The edges of a twisted ribbon have the form of a double helix.

The forces (torque and tension) are said to tend to seek their most relaxed state at all
points.  but this does not result in an even distribution of twist along the length of the ribbon
within a mobius strip.
             but rather
In the "natural form" of a multi twist mobius strip we find that most of the tight twists lie together...
while also an other section of the strip which has very little twist lies all together (no tight twisting spots to break it up).

              bloch wall
If we look at the field of a permanent magnet, and at an individual  line of force (an idealized
simplification) as having the form of a mobius strip  ...  and we place lines between the two helixs
(like the ladder rung like connections in the DNA molecule)  .... and we assign a N/S magnetic
polarity to these "rungs" like pole next to like pole ...  (all N poles connected to one helix
and all south poles connected to the other helix).  Note... that this does not necessarily result in
like pole in close proximity to each other.  Also consider that there would be other twisted ribbons
all  around in the over all field.

Where the double helix is tightly wound we will find an absence of NET magnetic force, because
N and S forces are in a near balance in any direction from we approach the double helix...except
as we approach it nearly straight on to the end of that double helix.

We have next, then to look at what Theoria Apophasis has termed the dielectric inertial plane
/counter part to the bloch wall.... in the part of the magnetic field which is exterior to the
[permanent magnet.  Lowest density in the field ... largest area.

Also we must again consider multiple force lines ... a gentle spiraling and... spiral ribbon layers
within layers  (shells) .... and also more than one ribbon sharing a single "shell".

I don't know if this model of mine gives you any ideas,  but I hope it may/

        floor

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Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
« Reply #15 on: February 11, 2017, 04:31:24 AM »

Offline dieter

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Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
« Reply #16 on: February 11, 2017, 04:36:22 AM »
As a Sidenote: I just said the seconary field of induction increases the DC resistance in the conductor and that causes energy loss... not very logical at first glance, right? But if you force the device to maintain the current flow at the same level, regardless of higher resistance, then it makes sense and we understand how energy gets lost.


Anyhow, in any AC operation you also have to deal with the phase shift, but that may lead us to far away from the topic.

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Offline dieter

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Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
« Reply #17 on: February 11, 2017, 05:22:55 AM »
Very interesting, Floor. Very close to my own interpretation. And good you are focussing on the magnet side, I tend to drift into electrical stuff.


At the nexus of my magnet force rectifier, the bloch wall, may be a focus in which as you said, polarities are so dense that due to molecular scale forces practically equalize.


But is there a particle, the magnetron? That is ejected out of the pole with a slingshot accelleration? But why does it return to the other pole? May there be a particle-pair fission and entanglement? One particle is shot out one side, the other one the other side? As they lose monentum, and repelled by like particles around them, the build the mushroom field, with one goal: to reunite with their entangled brother particle? Maybe.


If there is a helix pattern in the magnetic mechanics, then it must cause a gyroscopic force. That would explain, why electrons interlock with magnetic fields and are forced into rotation... at 90 degree angle...! Wow Floor I think you just put in the missing puzzle piece in my theory. Thanks! We should share that freakin nobel prize I'd say :)

Offline dieter

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Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
« Reply #18 on: February 11, 2017, 05:55:04 AM »
Hmm, there is also a further, easier explanation (sorry, on electrons again):


Electrons have a south and north pole, like our planet. Not surprising then, when they align to a magnetic field. But, according to my theory, due to their natural spinning, I call it screw-like, you'd probably say helix-guided, they then propagate in the conductor.


But ok, back to magnetism.


I think the perfect magnetic gate were, if you could sneak your rotor magnet into the bloch wall of the stator magnet and then give it a slight push so it will be repelled. But would that be possible? Just, very basic mechanical challenge? I lean towards Yes. Maybe we could use quantum tunnelling to transfer electrons into the bloch wall, would that be cool? Ok, we'd need the CERN to do the first testrun and maybe a Megawatt. But particle tunneling is real. We can Scotty-like beam particles, jumping like one inch in zero time. And the magnet would shoot out the electron or other particle.


Well just one way to sneak into the bloch wall.


A practical application of the theories is always the thing that's driving me.



Offline sm0ky2

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Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
« Reply #19 on: February 11, 2017, 07:52:55 AM »
The DNA helix is a good analogy. If this twisted helix
Leaves one pole and twists around towards the other
The chain of N moving one way, the chain of S moving
The other way
But lots and lots of these that accumulate to the large field
They lock together when you have multiple magnets
And you can bend them, build up pressure, and let them
Explode.
You can even stick the magnets together in a certain way
So they are always under pressure. And adding just one
More magnet, say from a passing rotor or cart,
Can cause them to explode. Magnetically speaking.


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Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
« Reply #19 on: February 11, 2017, 07:52:55 AM »
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Offline dieter

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Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
« Reply #20 on: February 12, 2017, 04:39:33 PM »
Interesting position as well, Smoky.


About measurements, one common measurement error is this: people fully charge a Cap, then use it for a brief moment, then calculate the energy consumed by looking at the caps voltage drop, then they say like:
only 0.1V drop from 100.1 to 100.0 vdc, that equals (assuming a 1 farad cap):
1 * ((0.1 * 0.1) /2) = 0.005 joule
But that is totally wrong. What you need to calculate is:
(1*((100.1*100.1)/2)) - (1*((100*100)/2)), equals 10.005 joule.
It makes a huge diffrence whether you drop 0.1v at 100v, or at 1v.
I add this here because this cap measurement method is often used in conjunction with magnetic devices.

Offline Floor

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Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
« Reply #21 on: February 13, 2017, 09:26:06 PM »
Hi smOKY 2

QUOTE FROM smOKy 2

"The DNA helix is a good analogy. If this twisted helix
Leaves one pole and twists around towards the other
The chain of N moving one way, the chain of S moving
The other way  "  END QUOTE

Leaves the interior of the permanent magnet via the poles ....
                    yes

Qutoe
"But lots and lots of these that accumulate to the large field"
END QUOTE

           yes and probably in a very structured or organized manner

QUOITE
"They lock together when you have multiple magnets"
END QUOTE
                  yes two or more magnets
QUOTE
"And you can bend them, build up pressure, '
END QUOTE
                             yes we can bend the "lines of flux"
                             and also change their density.

QUOTE
"and let them Explode."
END QUOTE
               don't know what this means


QUOTE
"You can even stick the magnets together in a certain way
So they are always under pressure. And adding just one
More magnet, say from a passing rotor or cart,
Can cause them to explode. Magnetically speaking."
END QUOTE
                 I don't understand what you are saying here either.

                 floor

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Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
« Reply #21 on: February 13, 2017, 09:26:06 PM »
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Offline Floor

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Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
« Reply #22 on: February 13, 2017, 09:29:57 PM »
@dieter


  no worries... your not off topic.... especially when you return to how
                   it relates to the magnetic component
         
  Nice
           thanks and appreciateion for your perspectives.
             
 floor

Offline dieter

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Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
« Reply #23 on: February 15, 2017, 04:31:26 AM »
Thanks, Floor.


Another interesting observation I wasn't aware of, that I saw in a FEMM simulation, is, assuming FEMM is correct, when you place an iron shield in front of your magnet, the maximum field density that was at the Bloch wall has moved right into the iron bar, which is practicly stealing the field density from the PM.


If you place two PMs N vs S with a gap and in rhe gap the end of an iron bar, in 90deg angle, that' a bit thinner than the gap, both PMs will try to link with the ironbar, but one will eventually win. Depending on which one, the polarity of the iron bar will be swapped. And according to FEMM the iron bar will hold the highest field density.


Now consider we have a setup in which the gap is only 1mm... what enormous field density we have in there, and by moving the iron bar, or rigid sheet by only 0.5mm, well have complete polarity reversal in the iron bar. Although this requires the iron bar contact area to be saturated by one magnet.


Hmm, I got to test this in FEMM.


Yet another interesting observation: two PMs, N vs S, can use the Bloch wall of a third magnet to link their flux, in 90deg to the third magnet. I have no idea why the magnetic domains at the Bloch wall don't react to these forces.

Offline sm0ky2

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Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
« Reply #24 on: February 16, 2017, 09:54:09 PM »
@Floor


Ok so you take a large magnet and a 2 small magnets
Put a small one forced opposite to the large
And glue or tape it there so it doesn't fly away
You may have to leave a little gap to get it just right
Depends on the two different magnets
Now when you approach this arrangement with the
Remaining small magnet, there are 3 field encounters
1) the small magnets field
2) the large magnets field
3) the cumulative field formed by the two occupying the
     same space.


By changing their physical orientation you can control how
The two individual fields affect the cumulative field, in such a
way that the warping caused by the approaching small magnet
Causes the cumulative field to change drastically.
This drastic change is like a spring releasing, because the two
magnets (or more) are forced to sit in a way that the cumulative
field is right on the edge of the drastic change. Just a tiny bit more
forcing and the cumulative field reorients itself.


By "explosion" I analogize the effect of a magnetic field change to
the order of tens to thousands of times.
Much more than the required forcing that caused the change.
When the smaller magnet is pulled out (or allowed to repel out)
The cumulative field reverts back to its "springy" state before you
caused the change.


Magnetically speaking, it explodes. (and resets)
The cumulative field will always morph to the gradient
of least resistance.


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Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
« Reply #24 on: February 16, 2017, 09:54:09 PM »
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Offline sm0ky2

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Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
« Reply #25 on: February 16, 2017, 10:00:06 PM »
@Dieter


If by "Bloch wall" you mean the neutral line in the 'center'
The dielectric inertial plane contains no net magnetism.
Although all of the flux passes through this region,
the very center has a uniform distribution of density
Thus there are (within a range or band) an equal and opposite
N & S within this region that cancel each other out completely




Offline Floor

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Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
« Reply #26 on: February 17, 2017, 12:10:46 AM »
@smOKY2

Thanks much for the expantion.
          floor


Offline dieter

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Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
« Reply #27 on: February 17, 2017, 01:56:52 AM »
@ Smoky,


what I don't get is why does no flux linking occur?
Normally you would expect any field lines to bend and link to a close unlike pole, so one part of the Bloch wall inhabitants should bend to one external pole, the other part to the other pole.


Intrestingly, that may happen nevertheless, because when you do this with only one expernal magnet then aztracting and repelling forces do cancel eachother out, agreed. But if you use two, eg. a North to the right end of the Bloch wall and a South to the left side, then they stick at the bloch wall.


Even tho, FEMM shows fieldlines, passing right along the bloch wall, It seems more likely to me that the bloch wall itself links to the two poles.
I've noticed these two magnets stick at a lightly offset position, one a bit closer to PM1's North, the other one closer to south.


Here I have some interesting simulation shots that show how you can focus a magnetic field and achieve very high fieldstrengths, simply with an iron core of the right shape.


Notice ontop of this Neo magnet sticks a cylinder of Supermalloy, or pure iron of the same diameter. It's fieldstrength at any place barely reaches that of the permanent magnet, about 1 Tesla.


In the second shot there is a thin iron bar, close to the other end of the PM. Notice the fieldstrength of this bar, that reaches 2 Tesla.


And in the third shot there is still about 1.7 Tesla, despite a rather large airgap.


So shape does matter extremly.


Offline Floor

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Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
« Reply #28 on: February 17, 2017, 07:59:43 PM »
@dieter / SmOKY2

On page five of topic below is an    interesting / easy    Mobius strip experiment / explanation.

http://overunity.com/13783/proof-of-overunity-from-magnets-fixture-no-negative-work-aspect-lafonte/msg370730/#msg370730

Addendum.. 

                       ? : If it is neutral to other field lines, why doesn't a given field line just drift away into space ?
          Answer ? : Because it is not neutral... to the randomly polarized atoms in the magnet ?

         field actions (within / around) are not simply between like and un like poles...there is a third element involved
        (other than the electric)    It is the FIELD of the randomly polarized.

       ? If there are interactions between the either / vacuum and organized energy / matter...I seems to me
       that the INTERFACE between these two kinds of (energy ?) occurs through random ness in the
       ordinary / perceivable energy (our world).

I  look at it like this..... that magnet "shape" and the direction of approach between two magnets are both
"a kind of shape".     The one is fixed a constant (for the now)..... the other is a variable.
............................................................................................
I / we.... all  use the language but...

While I consider field lines a valuable and useful convention.... also I don't think of them as real world.....
Like this....

 A peice of lumber that is 2 inches by 4 inches by 48 inches long ....is not actually composed of
some things which we call inches and feet. 

Similarly...I don't hink of that region we call a magnetic field as being a thing, but rather it is a mathematical
construct....  A description of a three dimensional volume in space.. in which events can be measured / compared
in relation to their placement within this drawn 3 dimensions "field".

                              regards

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Offline dieter

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Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
« Reply #29 on: February 17, 2017, 08:16:58 PM »
Of course I totally agree, "field lines" are just useful to display density and orientation within this magnetic shape of gradient vector force. They are simple short terms and I guess you understand what I mean by them.

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Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
« Reply #29 on: February 17, 2017, 08:16:58 PM »

 

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