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Author Topic: neon sign transformer confusion  (Read 7755 times)

Offline Tesluh

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neon sign transformer confusion
« on: October 25, 2016, 06:08:02 AM »
Trying to build a don smith device and coming up with a proper nst has been a huge hurdle.  how can I tell the difference between a 60 hz and ~37khz unit?  what changes the 60hz primary into 30 plus khz on the secondary, a transistor?  are all nst's high frequency output even though they are called "60hz"?  Having a hard time finding one that isn't gfci, and has access to the center tap without having to take all the potting out.  found the "core" of an nst on ebay (no gfci) but it' just an iron core transformer, I assume that would get me high voltage low frequency if I didn't have the transistor as well?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/4000-Volt-30-mA-220-50Hz-Open-Core-and-Coil-Neon-Sign-Transformer-/172373612922?hash=item282244997a:g:cX0AAOSwl9BWGumF

the other option is spend $290 for one from www.amazing1.com kind of pricey for a component to a device that I am not even sure is going to function.

I read an "instructable" on building tesla coils and found out that Transco and France nst's have gfci's that are easily removeable.  Might hunt one of those down and see what they look like. 
« Last Edit: October 25, 2016, 02:43:43 PM by Tesluh »

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

neon sign transformer confusion
« on: October 25, 2016, 06:08:02 AM »

Offline Zeitmaschine

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Re: neon sign transformer confusion
« Reply #1 on: October 25, 2016, 05:45:10 PM »
You could ask that strange replication buddy what neon transformer he has put to use with his Don Smith device replica.

But at least I have found the original Don Smith inverter. It is rated 200W 5 minutes. So no chance it could ever power 10 light bulbs 100W each. Means, if the audience at the presentation has not overlooked a hidden wire (or the light bulbs are only 20W each) then that Don Smith device produces real OU indeed.

Regards :)

Offline Magluvin

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Re: neon sign transformer confusion
« Reply #2 on: October 25, 2016, 06:06:42 PM »
Trying to build a don smith device and coming up with a proper nst has been a huge hurdle.  how can I tell the difference between a 60 hz and ~37khz unit?  what changes the 60hz primary into 30 plus khz on the secondary, a transistor?  are all nst's high frequency output even though they are called "60hz"?  Having a hard time finding one that isn't gfci, and has access to the center tap without having to take all the potting out.  found the "core" of an nst on ebay (no gfci) but it' just an iron core transformer, I assume that would get me high voltage low frequency if I didn't have the transistor as well?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/4000-Volt-30-mA-220-50Hz-Open-Core-and-Coil-Neon-Sign-Transformer-/172373612922?hash=item282244997a:g:cX0AAOSwl9BWGumF

the other option is spend $290 for one from www.amazing1.com kind of pricey for a component to a device that I am not even sure is going to function.

I read an "instructable" on building tesla coils and found out that Transco and France nst's have gfci's that are easily removeable.  Might hunt one of those down and see what they look like.

Older units are 60hz, large heavy box with 2 porcelain insulators.  That one in don smiths pic is looking like a more modern one and possibly electronicly driven which may be in the khz range of operation. Cant read the specs on that pic Z posted.

Mags

Offline Tesluh

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Re: neon sign transformer confusion
« Reply #3 on: October 25, 2016, 08:25:49 PM »
Thank you! Until now I hadn't seen any video of that device making actual power.  Gives me hope mine will someday be able to as well.  Yes all the ones I have here are either steel box or I have a small 12v one that doesn't function repeatably.

Offline Magluvin

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Re: neon sign transformer confusion
« Reply #4 on: October 26, 2016, 01:01:01 AM »
This is what Im seeing in this first stage circuit. Never seen that pic in that detail before.

It appears that the output of the neon transformer is rectified on both output leads, like it is running as a reverse Avramenko plug.  Only one lead can pump the cap at a time. Then I suppose each pump there must be a spark in the spark device to the left which seems to be connected to a gnd screw. I wonder if that screw is normally there or was it added? ???

The screw could be a center tap to the sec in the neon box? Or connected to the AC ground lead.

Mags

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: neon sign transformer confusion
« Reply #4 on: October 26, 2016, 01:01:01 AM »
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Offline Tesluh

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Re: neon sign transformer confusion
« Reply #5 on: October 26, 2016, 02:08:16 AM »
after about an hour of trying to read the part number off the nst I found  hm106nd  and ordered one each of these.  they come with the terminal (same as the bertonee don used).

https://www.amazon.com/Neon-Transformer-Signs-Devices-6-5kV/dp/B00OYZSMM0

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Neon-Transformer-for-Signs-Neon-Devices-120v-50-60Hz-0-7A-6-5kV-50mA-/262467328300

if anyone knows where to find those capacitors in stock I would be grateful.  everywhere I looked that offered them showed no inventory and they are 9 weeks to have them built.  Or similar construction one?  Don could have easily found others and yet he sought out those...

Offline Magluvin

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Re: neon sign transformer confusion
« Reply #6 on: October 26, 2016, 02:51:57 AM »
after about an hour of trying to read the part number off the nst I found  hm106nd  and ordered one each of these.  they come with the terminal (same as the bertonee don used).

https://www.amazon.com/Neon-Transformer-Signs-Devices-6-5kV/dp/B00OYZSMM0

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Neon-Transformer-for-Signs-Neon-Devices-120v-50-60Hz-0-7A-6-5kV-50mA-/262467328300

if anyone knows where to find those capacitors in stock I would be grateful.  everywhere I looked that offered them showed no inventory and they are 9 weeks to have them built.  Or similar construction one?  Don could have easily found others and yet he sought out those...

You could use other caps series/parallel.  Like look for 1kv and configure 4 in series for 4kv. There should be 1kv available. 4kv and up tends to be way specialized. And just like he has 2 of those caps in parallel, it shouldnt be an issue to put together your own caps. So you need 2uf total. If you can find 5uf 1kv caps, then 5 in series which brings us to 5kv for the heck of it. And another bank like that and parallel them you have 2uf. Just an example.  I would stick to poly caps as shown in the pic. They tend to have great characteristics for this stuff.

Mags

Mags


Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: neon sign transformer confusion
« Reply #6 on: October 26, 2016, 02:51:57 AM »
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Offline Tesluh

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Re: neon sign transformer confusion
« Reply #7 on: October 26, 2016, 04:03:07 AM »
Thank you, from another close up of Dons actual board I read they were .1uf each 4kv, so .2uf is what I will shoot for.  if it doesn't work I can hunt down the exact ones.  for 5 pcs they were going to be $50 ea!
  Going to order 4 of these and try 2x2 series and parallel for .2uf@6000vdc 
http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Cornell-Dubilier-CDE/940C30P1K-F/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMv1cc3ydrPrF1fw9wOI4QJULLduHe1Tl50%3d

Offline Tesluh

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Re: neon sign transformer confusion
« Reply #8 on: October 26, 2016, 04:30:54 AM »
Anyone know what diodes those are?  I have these coming http://www.ebay.com/itm/151368531662 they are 40ns diodes.

Offline Zeitmaschine

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Re: neon sign transformer confusion
« Reply #9 on: October 26, 2016, 11:00:07 AM »
Almost the same capacitors, but different brand: 0.1 MFD at 4000 volts

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: neon sign transformer confusion
« Reply #9 on: October 26, 2016, 11:00:07 AM »
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Offline Tesluh

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Re: neon sign transformer confusion
« Reply #10 on: October 26, 2016, 04:39:10 PM »
Good find!  if the ones I ordered don't work I will get those from Germany.

Offline memoryman

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Re: neon sign transformer confusion
« Reply #11 on: October 27, 2016, 01:33:45 AM »
"Going to order 4 of these and try 2x2 series and parallel for .2uf@6000vdc" that will give you 0.1uF @ 6kV.

Offline Magluvin

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Re: neon sign transformer confusion
« Reply #12 on: October 27, 2016, 05:25:43 AM »
"Going to order 4 of these and try 2x2 series and parallel for .2uf@6000vdc" that will give you 0.1uF @ 6kV.

Yeah.  If he uses 2 from that link in parallel it should be good with 2kv headroom.  That is if the caps are only .1uf each in the pic as he says. Just by the looks of them, I kinda lean toward them being 1uf 4kv. They are not small physically either.

The next thing to guess would be the voltage breakdown of the spark gap/suppressor. Diodes can probably be dictated by the cap voltage limits. If the red leads go out to the primary coil, Im not seeing how the primary gets powered by this circuit unless the nst is just a driver for the L and C. That must be it. so the nst freq can determine the LC resonant freq design.  Weird circuit.   I dont think it can be that the nst slowly pumps up the cap till spark, as the primary is across the cap and should be preventing that, I think.  Again, its weird

Mags

Mags

Offline Magluvin

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Re: neon sign transformer confusion
« Reply #13 on: October 27, 2016, 05:32:32 AM »
Yeah.  If he uses 2 from that link in parallel it should be good with 2kv headroom.  That is if the caps are only .1uf each in the pic as he says. Just by the looks of them, I kinda lean toward them being 1uf 4kv. They are not small physically either.

The next thing to guess would be the voltage breakdown of the spark gap/suppressor. Diodes can probably be dictated by the cap voltage limits. If the red leads go out to the primary coil, Im not seeing how the primary gets powered by this circuit unless the nst is just a driver for the L and C. That must be it. so the nst freq can determine the LC resonant freq design.  Weird circuit.   I dont think it can be that the nst slowly pumps up the cap till spark, as the primary is across the cap and should be preventing that, I think.  Again, its weird

Mags

Mags

I misread. 2 in parallel is still only 3kv. would need 8 to be .2uf at 6kv

Mags

Offline Tesluh

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Re: neon sign transformer confusion
« Reply #14 on: October 27, 2016, 03:53:31 PM »
cmr1a 402104k custom electric is what Don used (x2 in parallel) on one of the boards I saw a close up of.  .1uf at 4000wvdc, i think its a mica construction.  Not saying that only that one will work.  and dang it I will need 8 to get .2uf at 6000v!  4 in series paralleled with 4 more in series, 2x4.  thank you for pointing that out!

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: neon sign transformer confusion
« Reply #14 on: October 27, 2016, 03:53:31 PM »

 

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