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Author Topic: twofer  (Read 4821 times)

Offline webby1

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twofer
« on: October 14, 2016, 02:24:13 AM »
This is something I came up with this morning,, it is still in the development stage and most likely does not do anything :)

Well it does do something,, not sure as to how much of what it does :)

I was thinking that if a cap to cap dump looses 1\2 its energy why can that not be reversed??  that is to say if it looses 1\2 then why can it not be used to gain 1 extra,, hence the two for one or twofer :)

What I have envisioned is that the switches would work together and only discharge the caps C2 and C3 until they are 1 volt under C4 at which time the switches would flip the other way and recharge the caps.

This is setup in a series series connection with the coils and wired so that both coils work together to induce the output coil.

Right now I am using relays to drive the system and those I am running by hand,, very crude,,,, lots of things to still play with and then maybe make a solid state circuit to run it at the needed frequency.

I think that what might happen is that the current per cap will be sent through the coils at twice the voltage due to the series cap connections, but since you need to have both sides of both caps connected I have done that via 2 coils.  I have included a full wave voltage doubler to feed back to C4 but I am not sure if that is a good way of doing it.

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twofer
« on: October 14, 2016, 02:24:13 AM »

Offline webby1

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Re: twofer
« Reply #1 on: October 14, 2016, 06:45:07 AM »
Just for playing around I am using 2 270uf caps,, so not much input.

I thought I had the 2 coils wired correctly,, I was getting some output but burning up the charge on the caps,, so I reversed one of the coil connections,, now my output has gone up a lot and the caps are not discharging so far per hand pulse,,

Interesting stuff :)

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Offline shylo

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Re: twofer
« Reply #2 on: October 14, 2016, 09:42:39 AM »
Hi webby, I have a hard time trying to envision what's taking place ,when looking at schematics.
I did try your circuit from the other thread but found my caps were leaking down pretty quick.
I then hooked it into my circuit so when I drain mine for  motoring (which is generating) it charges yours ,and then I drain yours for motoring and it charges mine ,the whole time the transfer and generating are taking place, I'm running a load (36 leds') and charging an additional cap bank not yet connected to the circuit.
I'm still trying to perfect my switching method to get it to all work. I use all mechanical since I don't know electronics.
I just went and checked 24hrs later my caps dropped from 14v to 12.5v usually they would be down to about 2-3v so that is encouraging.
artv   

Offline webby1

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Re: twofer
« Reply #3 on: October 14, 2016, 01:08:56 PM »
I have been putting off learning how to make such control circuits,, the other people make it look so easy I guess I should spend the time and effort.

All my stuff so far I have used a mechanical trigger system,, time to move into the 21st century :)

What voltage do you get when you connect 2 caps in series?  the total of the 2 caps voltage right? so I have taken 2 caps and connected them in series and pulsed them across a coil,, easy,, then I took the connection where the 2 caps are joined together and separated that and placed a coil there as well,, the caps need to be connected but it does not matter how,, so long as they can see each other electrically,,, now those 2 coils work together as the primary for the transformer.


Offline webby1

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Re: twofer
« Reply #4 on: October 14, 2016, 01:54:31 PM »
The left side shows 2 series connected caps being pulsed through a transformer. (T2,C2,C3,S4)

The right side shows 2 series connected caps being pulsed through a transformer, however the common connection has been separated and another transformer placed between them. (T3,C4,C5,T4,S5)

When the switch S5 closes the original series connected caps are still in series and still going across the primary of the transformer, that connection between the caps is now going through the transformer T4 that is between the 2 caps.  T3 still sees twice the voltage but T4 also sees a voltage across it,, that also happens to be twice the voltage.

Now if those 2 transformers (T3,T4) were actually a single transformer with a bifilar primary and a 2:1 step down secondary,, what will happen when the switch S5 is closed?

My take is that there will be a pulse that has twice the voltage and twice the current, whereas the single transformer\series caps would have twice the voltage but only the current equal to one cap discharge.

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Re: twofer
« Reply #4 on: October 14, 2016, 01:54:31 PM »
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Offline webby1

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Re: twofer
« Reply #5 on: October 14, 2016, 02:01:25 PM »
Now if you look at the very first pic of twofer what you see is the switching needed to parallel charge the caps and then series discharge them,, I also included a feedback mechanism to charge the input cap but that might not be the way to go,,

Offline webby1

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Re: twofer
« Reply #6 on: October 18, 2016, 07:54:37 PM »
Well,,, I have my astable running,, kind of surprised myself since,, well,, lets just say that electronics is not my thing :)

I used 2 c945 NPN transistors 2 0.1uf caps and 2 5500ohm resistors for the base and 2 560ohm resistors for the collector.

The 945 say .15A max so that is what I used to choose the collector resistor.

I was using 1uf caps but thought I would try the smaller ones.

I am using it to drive 2 c4106 transistors which I hope to be able to then drive 4 switching transistors.

I am not sure why if I place a 1kohm resistor in parallel with the base resistor it stops,, if I only place it on one side then the other side stops but the one sides keeps going,, strange stuff and maybe after more play it will make sense.

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Re: twofer
« Reply #6 on: October 18, 2016, 07:54:37 PM »
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Offline webby1

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Re: twofer
« Reply #7 on: October 18, 2016, 10:24:22 PM »
My little setup will run a cree  light-bulb driver section,, 2 of them,, I had a few broken ones lying around,, input voltage was 10V output was (series connected) 30V,, 3V with a 560 ohm resistor across the output,, input was also 47mA  or some such,, it did not look good for efficiency I was only trying to see if I could run stuff.

I also plugged a little DC motor in,, funny thing is if I do not use a free-wheel diode the motor will not run,, not surprising just funny :)

Offline webby1

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Re: twofer
« Reply #8 on: October 19, 2016, 07:23:05 AM »
For fun with the little motor.

I used 3 diodes so I could use the output from both transistors and then took the free wheel diode and ran it into a large cap,, 56,000uf

As the cap voltage goes up the motor slows down.

motor stalled at 22.8V current draw is 62 and voltage is rising slowly.

current draw is slowly dropping,, 57mA 26V on cap

27.5V  55mA

30V very slow change now  48mA
31V   45mA

this run takes about 5 to 10 minutes,, so no free lunch but it is interesting

motor no circuit  10V 43mA
circuit no motor  10V 19mA
start motor\circuit 10V 64mA
motor stalled 10V 152mA 0V on cap,, depends on cap voltage,, as voltage goes up draw goes down.  When motor runs with 0V on cap then 65mA draw right after a flash higher.

Offline webby1

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Re: twofer
« Reply #9 on: November 03, 2016, 06:21:56 AM »
Playing with transistors and trying to get them to do what I want them to do,, well working on one part of a switch and I will get it eventually :)

In the mean time I am charging up a 270uf cap,, I use my little system to pulse charge the cap with 5V DC and I can then discharge the same cap I charged up with the 5V at 8V DC,, this is what I need to still figure out the switch part for,, I am manually discharging the cap,, same cap but using 20V DC discharges at 24V DC,, nothing big really basically a single coil autotransfomer kind of thing,, I am using it to learn how to control things like I would like to.

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Re: twofer
« Reply #9 on: November 03, 2016, 06:21:56 AM »
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Offline webby1

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Re: twofer
« Reply #10 on: November 03, 2016, 04:09:27 PM »
This is the basic version of what I am playing with but without the free-wheel diodes that need to be used as well.

S2 and S4 close and charge the cap as well provide for a load R2.

When the cap is at about the battery voltage S2 and S4 open,, the free-wheel diode then allows the collapsing field to add to the charge on the cap.

Then S3 and S4 close and discharge the cap and provide a load R2.

When the cap is down to about 0V S3 and S4 open and another free-wheel diode allows the collapsing field to reverse charge the cap.

Now when S2 and S4 close the cap is reverse charged and so more current can flow building a higher field for the collapse,, rinse and repeat.

This is then not a timing thing but a voltage thing and I would think that as it happens the frequency will go up dependent on R2, so whatever the load draws will increase the current draw from the source but not the voltage.

Thoughts,, suggestions??

Offline webby1

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Re: twofer
« Reply #11 on: November 05, 2016, 05:49:55 AM »
Have not got the circuit figured out yet,, I thought I had it but it failed,, many times :)

Just to make sure that what I think will happen can happen I did it the old fashioned way of using relays,, going that route I do indeed get an output from the secondary, not much at this time but it is an output, and the cap charge is higher than the source voltage when using the free wheel diode,, then when I discharge the cap back through the coils I get a second output form the secondary,, again not much at this time,, and the cap ends with a reversed charge, so below zero,, next input shows more current and maybe an increase in the output,, not sure since it is a very fast thing.

I only played with this for a very short time,, I fried the relays,, one smoked the contacts and the other one I broke trying to take it apart to see if I could get it to run faster than about 1Hz consistently, at about 5 to 10 it was bouncing,, a lot.

I think the problem I am having is that the cap is not on the same power rail after it is charged so my transistor needs to be tied into the cap power but triggered some other way,,   well the negative side of the charged cap is connected to the positive rail,, more thoughts and play,,



Offline webby1

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Re: twofer
« Reply #12 on: November 07, 2016, 02:31:55 PM »
This is interesting,, not sure what it means but it is interesting.

I am still trying to figure out the control circuit,, this is a side track observation.

Right now I have S4 and R2 replaced with a brushed DC motor and S3 is hand operated using a jumper with a diode.

I am only pulsing the input from my PSU through a transistor/Astable multivibrator trigger to charge C2.

When NOT using the jumper and I spin the DC motor, first in one direction and then the other I can increase the charge on C2,, I must spin it one way until there is resistance to the motor and then the other until there is resistance, the RPM I can get the motor up to seems to determine the increase in voltage on C2.

I use the jumper to discharge C2, when I do the motor will spin,, depending on how much capacitance I have on C2 as to how long,, the motor only spins in one direction when I do this but when C2 is discharged the motor will chatter a little bit until the charge is back up.

ETA:
I just tried the motor without the system turned on and it still will spin one way only so long without running into some resistance,, disconnect the motor and it free spins no problem,, plug it back into the board and the free spin is limited in each direction.

I wonder what capacitor I am charging up???  without the PSU and pulse feed C2 does not increase in voltage,, interesting.

Offline webby1

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Re: twofer
« Reply #13 on: November 07, 2016, 03:02:42 PM »
If I discharge C2 and then spin the motor it does go up,, I increased the capacitance as well,, and the motor still spins one way for a bit and then the other way,, interesting.

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Offline webby1

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Re: twofer
« Reply #14 on: November 07, 2016, 09:15:55 PM »
It is interesting how you can pass DC through a transformer like this,,

What I mean is that I can pass the charged up C2 through the transformer primary and out the secondary and use it in the motor connected to the secondary as DC with no diodes,, then I can turn the motor and charge C2 but I must "make" AC out of the motor by turning it one way and then the other,, it is the amount of turn that is interesting and that is what makes me wonder what capacitor I am charging up when doing that.

I can only assume at this point that it is the timing caps for the Astable multivibrator.

I have the transformer setup right now with one coil set using one side transistor and the other coil set using the other side transistor and so I have another C2,, I can take out from between those 2 caps and with the motor hooked to the two negative plates I can spin it one way and charge one cap faster than the other and then spin it the other way to get the other cap,, but this time the motor does not have that free spin feel to it at all,, I am guessing that the free wheel diodes on the coils are allowing that to happen,, well I have the timing caps removed while doing that,, they are 50V 47uf,,

If I stop spinning the motor the caps will balance there charge.

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Re: twofer
« Reply #14 on: November 07, 2016, 09:15:55 PM »

 

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