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Author Topic: Piezoelectric Magnet Fanner Generator  (Read 2307 times)

Offline Blainiac

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Piezoelectric Magnet Fanner Generator
« on: October 07, 2016, 08:48:03 PM »
It's been a long time since I've been on here.  I had an idea that combines the magnetic fanner concept with piezoelectric generators sandwiched between the fanner plates to generate electricity.


Example:  Imagine you have ten ferrite (non-conductive and magnetic) plates with nine piezoelectric generators glued between them.  This should make a nice cube stack with a bunch of wires hanging out.  Now, we repeat this process to make a lot of stacks arranged in a circular pattern.  Depending on the size and dimensions, we could have lots piezoelectric generators.


Now, if you remember the fanner concept, when a stack of magnetic plates/washers are introduced to a magnetic field, they will want to separate and 'fan out' the width of the magnet.  Now, since our plates are glued to the ceramic piezoelectric generators, they are not allowed to slide, but will still produce strain on the ceramic generators as the plates try to separate.  Fanner experiments done by Butch Lafonte show that once the plates are separated, it is harder for the magnet to 'leave' the plates, so that acts kind of a sticky spot.  The plates barely move (microscopically) in this case, so the magnets should move from one stack to the next without sticking or cogging.

If we have magnets rotating around in a circle, we can possibly generate enough electricity (stored in a capacitor/battery?) to exceed the input required to rotate the magnets.

What do you guys think?  Any variation (pendulums, tracks, etc.) of this should be easy and cheap (to test a small portion) to build.  Does anyone have the means to test it out?  One of the more interesting aspects would be to test how much more energy it takes to leave the stack than it gains by entering.  I don't think it would be too much as the plates don't move much.

Also, I think there's a similar piezoelectric design just a few threads below mine.  It doesn't use the fanner effect, but I haven't looked enough into it to see if it's kind of the same.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2016, 03:23:29 AM by Blainiac »

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Offline lumen

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Re: Piezoelectric Magnet Fanner Generator
« Reply #1 on: October 08, 2016, 02:17:35 PM »
I had a similar idea but then reasoned that if the piezo crystals would work with such a small deflection then why include all the loss of the magnetic material when you could simply attach a small magnet to each piezo generator and rotate them by other magnets to generate power.
So I bought 50 piezo disks and the tiny magnets and 50 tiny full wave rectifiers but never yet put it together though I did do some testing of the piezo disks charging capacitors.

I figured that at some RPM the piezo disks would resonate at their base frequency and there would be a large increase in output.

The final design consisted of stacks of piezo disks on a rotor with the small magnets on each disk repelling the the next disk in the stack.
A stack of repelling magnets would provide the same effect as a fanner but not the increased drag.

Just passing along some thoughts on a similar concept.
Good luck!
« Last Edit: October 09, 2016, 02:16:47 AM by lumen »


Offline Blainiac

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Re: Piezoelectric Magnet Fanner Generator
« Reply #2 on: October 09, 2016, 07:23:41 PM »
Lumen,


Very interesting thoughts.  I was hoping that the minuscule change in separation would create a similar minuscule fanner 'drag', but simply attaching magnets to the piezoelectric generators might be a better way to go.  I think the idea of the peizos resonating at some RPM is interesting idea as well.  Is the concept you're describing similar to the drawing below?  In the drawing, I have a rotor with 6 arc magnets that is free to rotate about a shaft.  The stator consists of piezoelectric generators on the outermost region, with smaller arc magnets attached and near the rotor.

Offline lumen

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Re: Piezoelectric Magnet Fanner Generator
« Reply #3 on: October 10, 2016, 06:23:37 AM »
That would work but might cause some work to rotate from the tiny deflection of the magnets on the Piezo generators. Something like tires rolling, hard tires don't compress much and roll easy but with less air roll a bit harder because it's like climbing a tiny hill all the time.

I thought stick with the fanner effect but a bit different.

In the picture, when the rotor magnet passes a stack of piezo disks as shown, the red gaps between the disk magnets will expand because the compression field of the rotor magnet is also red, at the same time the blue gap will collapse because the field is pulled and weakened by the rotors red face.
The rotor magnets would be setup to alternate poles so the next magnet would collapse the red and expand the blue gaps.

The outer two stationary magnets frame the entire exposure range so to the rotor magnet nothing changes and there is no change in drag but yet movement is flexing the piezo disks and generating power.

Each disk need it's own full wave bridge to collect power so there is no interference in polarity between disks.

That was the final concept on the piezo generator that might have the best chance of working if it could be built clean enough.

 :o



Offline Blainiac

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Re: Piezoelectric Magnet Fanner Generator
« Reply #4 on: October 10, 2016, 04:29:30 PM »
I see the expansion and compression of the field you're talking about, very interesting.  One thing I wonder is if the outer stationary magnets do frame the entire exposure range, or if the compression/expansion of the field in that range affects the stationary magnets' fields so the rotor can 'feel' it.  I think in reality that the rotor should just come into and out of the stator stack just fine since the outer stationary magnets are arranged to equal out (look equal to the rotor on both sides).  I really like your idea of using a purely magnetic version and being able to prevent the drag on the rotor, really smart.

I wish there was a way to build this at the moment, I think your idea is really a great direction.  I know you mentioned this was the final concept design, but were you able to test any portion of it?  I think it would be a great build test!  I'll try to do some actual FEMM animations to see how the rotor magnet is affected coming into and out of the stator arrangement.  Awesome work Lumen...  you are definitely on to something!  Do you still have those piezos and magnets laying around?   ::)


Update:  I've attached a 360 loop version to see how the field looks (relative to the rotor so I can see the field or any cogging).  It looks very smooth!  In this animation, you can't see the movable stator magnets moving in response to the field (the ones attached to the piezos) to properly see any true distortions in the field, but I think it's safe to say that the stators would keep the field in check.  It is interesting to see (without gaps).  Any thoughts?


ANIMATION!  DEFINITELY CHECK THIS OUT:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B2AQ8-v73dnubWx3ZWpIanRjUWM/view?usp=sharing
« Last Edit: October 10, 2016, 08:12:46 PM by Blainiac »

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Re: Piezoelectric Magnet Fanner Generator
« Reply #4 on: October 10, 2016, 04:29:30 PM »
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Offline lumen

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Re: Piezoelectric Magnet Fanner Generator
« Reply #5 on: October 11, 2016, 03:08:50 AM »
That's an interesting animated gif. It looks like the field inverts as it passes the large magnets.

I do still have a stack of about 50 piezo disks and the small magnets also. I put the tiny full wave rectifiers somewhere so they wouldn't get lost, so now they are really lost.

Yes, I do have all the parts somewhere.

The piezo disks are real cheap on Ebay and the magnets are small so they are not expensive either.
The rectifiers are SMD and are tiny and only rated to 25v. I figured this was ok as long as they are connected to a capacitor and you never let it charge above the rated 25v max.
They would restrict the high voltage output of the piezo disks by keeping both cycles of the disk charging the capacitor and the disks output could never exceed the voltage on the capacitor.

I may still get back to it some day, or not, so I thought I would pass along anything you might want to use, or not.




Offline Low-Q

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Re: Piezoelectric Magnet Fanner Generator
« Reply #6 on: October 11, 2016, 05:25:35 PM »
@ lumen


If you use the gentle and gradually force from the magnet, the output voltage from these piezo discs are not going very high. It is the short lasting high forces that will probably destroy your rectifier.
I have a load of these discs myself. I have tried to stack 20pcs and used a gentle force to compress them. The output voltage isn't that high. However, if I apply a shock of force on them, I can see a small spark through the air.


If I just remember where I put them, I can try to replicate this experiment and post on youtube.


Vidar

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Re: Piezoelectric Magnet Fanner Generator
« Reply #6 on: October 11, 2016, 05:25:35 PM »
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Offline Low-Q

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Re: Piezoelectric Magnet Fanner Generator
« Reply #7 on: October 11, 2016, 06:22:42 PM »
I found the discs. One complete package of many.
When I stack them and measure voltage. Just by pressing on all of them I measure approx 4-5 Volt. Using the Ampére meter I measure not more than a few micro Ampéres. So there is not much energy in these discs. The voltage drops to 0.2-0.3 volts just by touching each pole. The reason is that they do not compress much. They are in fact made of metal and crystals that isn't all that easy to compress into any significant displacement. So at great force, the displacement is so small that the total energy will be very very low. We talk about not more than a few micro Watts.


If I take only one, and bend it gently, but rapidly to each side, the pressure/stress on the crystal is much greater, so I measure also 4-5Volt, but the Ampéres does not exceed 20uA.


Displacement also means that the magnets must displace the same. That again means that the magnets must provide energy into the discs in order to get anything out. As I see it, the energy output is too low and the efficiency is very low.


Vidar.

Offline lumen

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Re: Piezoelectric Magnet Fanner Generator
« Reply #8 on: October 12, 2016, 04:17:45 AM »
@ vidar

I have done some tests on the disks and the best is either to bend them slightly or support the edges and apply presure at the center, but to compress them does not work as well.
They make them with the crystal structure in the direction that is required for optimal use. So these flat disks I believe were intended as buzzers so the movement is likely to be in the diameter direction and say only in the X direction and not radially. So to get the maximum power it would be best to test each one by holding one half and flexing the the other half up and down, then rotating a bit and flex it again until you find the crystal direction for each disk.

This is about when I thought this project may be too complicated and would need some amount of design to make it work well.

The crystals also have a resonate frequency and to optimize the project it might become necessary to test this frequency and use only crystals that have nearly the same resonate frequency since this would be the point with the highest output.

In any case, connecting a single crystal to a full wave rectifier and a capacitor yeilds a surprisingly fast charge for each flex. You can connect a meter to the capacitor and flex it to watch it charge.

It's still an interesting but complicated project that someone should build as long as they understand all the complications.



 

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