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Author Topic: Trying to Actually Understand Electricity  (Read 2010 times)

Offline earthbound0729

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Trying to Actually Understand Electricity
« on: September 03, 2016, 04:36:01 AM »
Hello All,

Since my youth I have been taught in all the arts and sciences as we have here in the USA.

I am having the most difficult time trying to really understand electricity and how it actually works. I have read theories which really don't seem to make sense. Maybe you have too
The most common theory I have been taught deals with  movement of energy (another elusive word) because of electron movement. AS I grew up I no longer questioned these premises, but just used the results as we all do in this world.

So here are some of my current thoughts. If electrons are actually in constant motion according to modern atomic theory, as posited by our physical sciences, then it stands to reason that there is magnetism/electricity constantly being produced in all matter at all time unless at absolute zero, according to our theories. Detecting these small amounts may be difficult with modern tools though.

Now regarding common thoughts on the movement of electricity through a wire, let's say AC at 60 Hz. According to what we are taught this type of electricity moves in 2 directions almost simultaneously. Is this true?
If we're talking about electron movement, how many electrons are actually moving at one time. I've never heard this as a quantifiable number, but if there is electron movement in the conductor it seems like this movement would cause frictional heating, more so than I might think. Also, how far do these electrons travel before they reverse? This seems more like a pulsating pump, or the lungs. Everything I've been taught all seems to be so nebulous concerning these ideas.

I haven't even mentioned how the beginning of this cycle starts. That is definitely interesting too.

So people, I would like to hear from teachers who actually teach this at school and at university levels. Also, of course, from you who have practical experience proving theories.
We really seem to be missing something in all of our education.
I think if we can get clear enlightenment, it will definitely make doing our work here more rewarding, even if it means throwing away junk that doesn't work or can't really be proven.
It could even give new direction for experimenters.

If all this is redundant and I'm out in left field, that's ok, just say so, but back it up with facts for the edification of everyone.

Thank you all for looking at this and taking an interest.
earthbound

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy


Offline pomodoro

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Re: Trying to Actually Understand Electricity
« Reply #1 on: September 03, 2016, 06:37:14 AM »


Now regarding common thoughts on the movement of electricity through a wire, let's say AC at 60 Hz. According to what we are taught this type of electricity moves in 2 directions almost simultaneously. Is this true?

Not at all, movement of the electron is extremely fast. 60Hz or even 60Ghz is nothing for the electron to flow, stop and reverse in metal. Actual electrons flow slowl yin and  out of one end of the wire , like water in a pipe, but the ability to react to fields is close to the speed of light.

Quote

If we're talking about electron movement, how many electrons are actually moving at one time. I've never heard this as a quantifiable number, but if there is electron movement in the conductor it seems like this movement would cause frictional heating, more so than I might think. Also, how far do these electrons travel before they reverse? This seems more like a pulsating pump, or the lungs. Everything I've been taught all seems to be so nebulous concerning these ideas.


For actual amount of electrons flowing , one mole of electrons 6.022140857 × 10 23
actual electrons pass each time  9.648 70 x 104
Coulombs, which is Amps x time in seconds.
Amps and time are easily measured, so you can work ou the electron flow.

From the speed in the conductor and the frequency you can calculate easily the lenght the electron travels before it reverses. Finally yes, there is friction and its called resistance and it does heat the wire. Special precautions are used at high frequency, such as sliver plating, to reduce this 'friction'

All this stuff was worked out in the  1800's not sure why they did not theach you this, perhaps you only did very basic electricity and the teacher was clueless. This is very often the case at schools, the teachers are mostly ignorant and just teach because they have to. The passion left them long ago or was never in them.
There is nothing pseudoscientific that can touch these basic principles, if your basic understandig of electricity is not up to scratch it is pointless trying to challenge these basic foundations with esoteric ideas. 


Offline kmarinas86

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Re: Trying to Actually Understand Electricity
« Reply #2 on: September 03, 2016, 06:44:17 AM »
To answer one of your more interesting questions, which is one that I had myself:

Quote from: earthbound0729?
Now regarding common thoughts on the movement of electricity through a wire, let's say AC at 60 Hz. According to what we are taught this type of electricity moves in 2 directions almost simultaneously. Is this true?

The electromagnetic waves can travel in both directions. So the energy can be carried in both directions between electrons simultaneously. Of course there is a bulk movement of electrons. See the following article:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drift_velocity#Numerical_example

Quote
Numerical example[edit]
Electricity is most commonly conducted in a copper wire. Copper has a density of 8.94 g/cm^3, and an atomic weight of 63.546 g/mol, so there are 140685.5 mol/m^3. In one mole of any element there are 6.02×10^23 atoms (Avogadro's constant). Therefore in 1 m^3 of copper there are about 8.5×1028 atoms (6.02×1023 × 140685.5 mol/m^3). Copper has one free electron per gram atom, so n is equal to 8.5×1028 electrons per cubic metre.
Assume a current I = 1 ampere, and a wire of 2 mm diameter (radius = 0.001 m). This wire has a cross sectional area of 3.14×10^−6 m^2 (A = π × (0.001 m)^2). The charge of one electron is q = −1.6×10^−19 C. The drift velocity therefore can be calculated....

[Equations]

Therefore in this wire the electrons are flowing at the rate of −0.000023 m/s. At 60 Hz alternating current, this means that within half a cycle the electrons drift less than 0.2 μm. In other words, electrons flowing across the contact point in a switch will never actually leave the switch.
By comparison, the Fermi flow velocity of these electrons (which, at room temperature, can be thought of as their approximate velocity in the absence of electric current) is around 1570 km/s.[2]
In the case of alternating current, the direction of electron drift switches with the frequency of the current. In the example above, if the current were to alternate with the frequency of F = 60 Hz, drift velocity would likewise vary in a sine-wave pattern, and electrons would fluctuate about their initial positions.... [Equations]

Velocity dependent on the electric field:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electron_mobility

How electrons interact with conductors:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drude_model

Offline webby1

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Re: Trying to Actually Understand Electricity
« Reply #3 on: September 03, 2016, 02:21:02 PM »
Try reading this,, it is a very easy to follow explanation.

http://amasci.com/

This page more specifically might help

http://amasci.com/ele-edu.html

Question everything,, even if you are told or know that what you think is perfect :)


Offline earthbound0729

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Re: Trying to Actually Understand Electricity
« Reply #4 on: September 19, 2016, 01:52:52 AM »
Hello you all.

Thanks for taking the time to respond.

Pomodoro:
Quote
All this stuff was worked out in the  1800's not sure why they did not theach you this, perhaps you only did very basic electricity and the teacher was clueless. This is very often the case at schools, the teachers are mostly ignorant and just teach because they have to. The passion left them long ago or was never in them.

I couldn't agree more. Sometimes the passion does diminish.

Quote
if your basic understandig of electricity is not up to scratch it is pointless trying to challenge these basic foundations with esoteric ideas. 

I am not at a point where me challenging anything like electrical theory would be a possibility, nor do I conceive of such a thing in my near future but your point is well-taken.

kmarinas86,

I read these articles you linked for me, all three interesting. Thank you.

webby1,

your second link was helpful, at least to the degree there is much confusion in the term electricity, and very difficult (maybe impossible) to pin down to a single concept.

I realize the "journey of a thousand miles starts with but a single step." Thanks for all these stepping stones.

earthbound.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Trying to Actually Understand Electricity
« Reply #4 on: September 19, 2016, 01:52:52 AM »
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Offline Doug1

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Re: Trying to Actually Understand Electricity
« Reply #5 on: September 20, 2016, 05:02:07 PM »
 INMO everything is over complicated purposefully to increase it's value falsely.

 

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