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Mechanical free energy devices => mechanic => Topic started by: Low-Q on September 02, 2016, 04:41:31 PM

Title: 3D printing a structure for an experiment with magnets
Post by: Low-Q on September 02, 2016, 04:41:31 PM
Hi all,


I have started the 3D printing of a structure that will fit 9x magnets that measure 26mm in diameter and 6mm thick.
Earlier I made a simulation of a GE-rotary magnet motor that actually gave 120%...but unfortunatly impossible to build.
That earlier design had an inner and outer gear with gear ratio 5 : 4. Both rotors measured the same torque in oposite direction, but the inner rotor spun 20% faster, and therfor 20% more energy that could counter the energy in the outer rotor that was holding it back.


No I have started to build one, but with different configuration of the magnets. I know this will not work, but I want to learn more about magnets through practical use.


In the pictures there is two different positions of the inner and outer gear.
Magnet 1, 2, 3 and 4 is placed on the inner gear, and magnet A, B, C, D, and E are placed in the outer gear.
For each 45° rotation of the inner gear, there is 36° rotation of the outer gear. A gear ratio of 5 : 4.


I look forward to see what actually happens when I place those two gears together. They work very fine as a fluid pump when powering it with a motor.... How will it work with magnets? LOL ;D


This is the idea.
Initial position (picture 0-0 degree):
Magnet 1 repels A, attracts E (Strongly)
Magnet 2 repels B, attracts A (Strongly)
Magnet 3 wants to go nowhere, but repels D and attract B (Weakly)
Magnet 4 repels E, attracts D (Moderate/strongly)


After 45° counterclockwise rotation of the inner gear and 36° rotation of the outer gear.

Magnet 1 repels A, attracts E (Strongly)
Magnet 2 repels B, attracts A (Strongly)
Magnet 3 repels C, attracts B (Strongly)
Magnet 4 repels E, attracts D (Strongly)


I would guess that the difference in torque in these gears are 4:5, resulting in zero output. The 3D printed structure will be finished in 5 hours from now. Placing the magnets takes 30 minutes with hot-glue. Whish me luck  :D



Title: Re: 3D printing a structure for an experiment with magnets
Post by: Low-Q on September 02, 2016, 06:43:50 PM
"nitial position (picture 0-0 degree):
Magnet 1 repels A, attracts E (Strongly)
Magnet 2 repels B, attracts A (Strongly)
Magnet 3 wants to go nowhere, but repels D and attract B (Weakly)
Magnet 4 repels E, attracts D (Moderate/strongly)"


I was wrong about magnet 3. It is neutral about midway between C and B. Tested it now with a poor 3D print.
I had to start over with some more infill and slower print. This proves that what one might think about magnets behaviour is not allways right  ;)
The new model is finished in about 4 hours from now....
Title: Re: 3D printing a structure for an experiment with magnets
Post by: Low-Q on September 03, 2016, 09:29:05 AM
Here is pictures during printing, some of the neo-magnets I have extracted from defektive speakers, and the final product.
Actually, the photo of the printing process was my first print of these gears - the one that got very poor quality.


So, what can I say other than being ringt that it does not work. The magnets are so strong they actually deform the outer gear into an oval shape, but if there was excess energy of 20%, it would have no problems in go selfrunning - but it doesn't. Fair enough. Yet another proof that magnets can't do work.


Webby, can you make a simple drawing of what you suggest?


Vidar
Title: Re: 3D printing a structure for an experiment with magnets
Post by: Low-Q on September 04, 2016, 11:01:09 PM
Thanks for your post Webby.


I actually have a second hand hand ge-rotary oil pump that I bought on Ebay several years ago. It is quite small, and tricky to handle with my magnets. As soon as I put magnets on the outer and inner gear, these gears tend to lock up due to terrible friction.


I must find a way to solve that problem - for example using the 3D printer to print a mold of inner and outer gears, that I fill with iron powder mixed with low viscosity resin (You can buy expensive 2/3 litre + 1/3 bottles with this thin resin and hardner that is used to squirt into gaps in cracked concrete).


Gears can be made larger and therfor easier to handle.


Now I need to spend a small fortune on such resin and iron powder....Doing everything for a good cause, right?  ;D


Vidar
Title: Re: 3D printing a structure for an experiment with magnets
Post by: Low-Q on September 05, 2016, 02:00:36 PM
I used to work with laser copiers and printers for 10 years, but those printers did not have metal spheres in the toner - only organic toner.
The toner you mention was probably used to attach the actual printing toner into a drum that was charged with a chorona wire. Those printers and copiers was nasty stuff as they spewed out O3 (Ozone) from the corona wire.
These days they usually use a charger foam roller that charge the image drum. A LED-bar with thousands of small IR-LEDs makes sure the surface of the image drum get correctly charged where the organic toner get stuck into, and then transferred into the paper that has an opposite charge.


I think the easiest way for me is to spend a few bucks on iron powder.


There is however one concern using external magnets to magnetize the gears. The magnets will also cover the emtpy space between the lobes of the outer gear, and i addition, the iron will not act like a magnet will do, since the field will mainly follow the iron, and not "send" the magnetic field into emty space between the lobes.


There will be a magnetisation, and interaction between inner and outer gear, but the torque readings will have the same difference as the angular velocity of the gears. So the potential energy that rest in the gears will be equally, and oppose each other. The result is a dead motor.


This is "proven" by simulations in FEMM, and also proven by experiments.


The gears must be magnets to make this work, but the outer gear must be a magnet that rotate in the opposite direction of the rotation of the gear in the same rate, so the magnetic field will point to the same direction all the time regardless of the outer gears orientation.


It is possible to use 5 magnets that by a transmission will keep the same orientation all the time, but the magnets will oppose the rotation as the torque in them will counterforce any change in direction.
The sum of it all will still be a dead motor.


Wouldn't it be fun to find a way around? I'll work on that one.... :-)


Vidar
Title: Re: 3D printing a structure for an experiment with magnets
Post by: Low-Q on September 05, 2016, 08:22:49 PM
I remember very very well several years ago, when I had my moment of EUREKA - and some time later I realized that I was wrong. Sooooo close to bust the nature of magnets, when it hit me so hard. The terrible smell of a terrible mistake.
After that I have been extremely sceptic to free energy through over unity.
However, I do now look at this more like something to believe in, even if my rational mind know I can't achieve anything for free.
My wife has her angels, spirits, and superstition. Really not a rational way of thinking, even if she too has a rational mind, but something to believe in. Persuing dreams and whishes - even if it's out of reach.


Enough preaching  ;) - I must do some more simulations, but frankly, I do not think my computer is programmed to make over unity calculations...maybe this is all in vain :P


I'll be back


Vidar
Title: Re: 3D printing a structure for an experiment with magnets
Post by: Low-Q on September 07, 2016, 04:10:58 PM
I just got a crazy idea.
I think I might have solved the problem - just an idea this far, and my brain cannot simulate real world physics just by using whishes and hopes.


I made a simulation in FEMM using 5 outer magnets where all points north or south in the same direction.
The inner 4 magnets have south or north pointing outwards.
This is the basic idea I had a few years ago, wher the torque of the outer and inner gear/assambly was the same, but with different gear ratio.
That ratio of 4:5 would force the inner gear/assambly to "win" the competition between the two gears because it spun 20% faster.
As we know from physics, energy from a spinning device is torque multiplied with revolutions per second.


The problem was to keep the magnetic orientation in the same direction for the 5 outer magnets - independent of the orientation through the revolution.
I found that impossible to achieve without loosing that extra energy. Because each magnet have a counter torque, and if we add that sum of countertorque, and add counter torque of the whole outer gear/assambly, the total energy through one revolution is the same and opposite as in 5/4 revolution of the inner gear/assambly. So the output will be zero.


I will now call:
the 5 outer magnets: Outer rotor
the 4 inner magnets: Inner rotor




If the magnetic orientation of these 5 magnets on the outer rotor was held there by hand, the whole thing would start spinning - not surpricingly because you add energy by hand.


Now, what if I fix a long rod to each of the 5 magnets on the outer rotor, and put those rods through a common hole some distance away, it will be the rods that keep the magnets orientation fixed, and not the outer rotor - that was the thought anyways, and right here I might have made the mistake.


If I have not made a mistake:
At the tip of the long rods, there will be less torque per distance to keep the mangets in position than letting the outer rotor do it.


If we say the inner rotor is 4cm in radius, and with an angular force of 5N
The outer rotor is 5cm in radius, and with an angular force of 4N
Both those rotors have the same torque in N per meter, but the gear ratio will make the inner rotor stronger.


So, when it comes to the rods that is 100cm long, the sum of angular force at 100cm distance, for each of the 5 magnets in the outer rotor, would be 0.25N, not 5.
So then we got an angular force at 4cm of 0.75N to spare, and not 0. This will force the inner rotor to continue to chase the sticky spot, and continually try to escape the repelling forces


This is in my dreams only - for now. I will print out some parts, and use some carbon fiber rods I have...


Looking forward to yet another fail  ;D


Vidar
Title: Re: 3D printing a structure for an experiment with magnets
Post by: Low-Q on September 08, 2016, 08:53:25 AM
Working on it...


First I print out the assambly for the outer magnets.
Title: Re: 3D printing a structure for an experiment with magnets
Post by: Low-Q on September 09, 2016, 03:05:09 PM
I have done some simulations using LUA-scrips (That I got from a very helpful member here - namely broli)


In the picture below, I did some simulations in FEMM. However FEMM only deal with "plane magnetic fields" not fields that come "out of the paper" like it does in by drawing, but the attraction- and repelling forces should be the same principle.


I used steps of 2 and 3 degrees for outer and inner rotor respectively. I had to do the simulation twice so I could get the results of both rotors. I put the outputs in Excel, and summarize them.


Both rotors have almost the same torque, but in opposite directions. That's fine. Because the inner rotor makes 3 revolutions while the outer rotor makes 2.


When I multiply the torque one complete cycle for each rotor, I got more energy out of the inner rotor than the outer (?!!). This is maybe a design fault in FEMM, but the computer simulates an efficiency of 150%!!!


How is this possible?


Vidar

Title: Re: 3D printing a structure for an experiment with magnets
Post by: Low-Q on September 11, 2016, 12:29:28 AM
Forget that last picture and post. My mistake was to se the sum of all measured torque readings. Each and individual was + and - 50Nm, but the sum was around 2-3Nm. Deviding this on all 72 samples, and virtually nothing is left.


So I have to stick with the alternative on the previous picture (With all the black long rods)
The individual torque of each outer magnets would normally be in addition to the torque around center of the outer rotor, but with the control-rods that keeps these outer magnets in same direction all the time, will reduce the problem to a minimum.
I will be very cautious about what I say now, because I am most probably wrong.
Just by going ahead and try something that my mind says doesn't work feels wrong, and it feels just stupid to actually go building a prototype of something that physics says isn't possible to do...but that is the reason why I will build it ;D


I will come back and report my findings later.


Vidar
Title: Re: 3D printing a structure for an experiment with magnets
Post by: lumen on September 11, 2016, 04:01:33 AM
Forget that last picture and post. My mistake was to se the sum of all measured torque readings. Each and individual was + and - 50Nm, but the sum was around 2-3Nm. Deviding this on all 72 samples, and virtually nothing is left.


So I have to stick with the alternative on the previous picture (With all the black long rods)
The individual torque of each outer magnets would normally be in addition to the torque around center of the outer rotor, but with the control-rods that keeps these outer magnets in same direction all the time, will reduce the problem to a minimum.
I will be very cautious about what I say now, because I am most probably wrong.
Just by going ahead and try something that my mind says doesn't work feels wrong, and it feels just stupid to actually go building a prototype of something that physics says isn't possible to do...but that is the reason why I will build it ;D


I will come back and report my findings later.


Vidar

With the small rotor moving 1.5 rotations to the larger outer ring rotating 1 the result is zero gain.
Maybe it could be changed so the outer ring with three magnet sets would have the smaller radius and the center ring with the two magnet sets would have the larger radius.
This would have the greater leverage from the increased radius plus the gearing leverage both on the same side providing a gain of 3 to 1 ?

Title: Re: 3D printing a structure for an experiment with magnets
Post by: Low-Q on September 11, 2016, 01:06:57 PM
With the small rotor moving 1.5 rotations to the larger outer ring rotating 1 the result is zero gain.
Maybe it could be changed so the outer ring with three magnet sets would have the smaller radius and the center ring with the two magnet sets would have the larger radius.
This would have the greater leverage from the increased radius plus the gearing leverage both on the same side providing a gain of 3 to 1 ?
Thanks for the input lumen. I will try that as long the inner and outer magnets doesn't bump into eachother - they have to be synced in 2 to 3 ratio and out of the way of each other :-)


What I have simulated is that there is the same torgue on two gears that has different size. These gears are connected like in the picture below, and rotate in the same direction but at different speed.
The torque is in opposite directions on those gears. However, a small gear attached to a large gear, and apply the same torque on both in opposite directions, I have a feeling that the small gear will win. That is what I have been struggeling with....


This scenario only applies when the outer magnets are externally forced to stay in the same magnetic orientation.
If I use a gear system that is attached to the outer gear, so the outer magnet can rotate in the opposite direction relative to the outer rotor, each magnet will apply approx 50% more countertorque, so the final torque readings on each rotor as a difference of 1.5 times. In that case, the rotors will not go anywhere because the energy is conserved.


Therfor I had the idea of using relatively long rods that is attached to each of the outer magnets, and let them keep the magnetic orientation instead. Then I release the individual countertorques from the actual rotation. That what I hav been thinking. I am probably very wrong, but the thought bugs me.


I also attach a zip-file containng the .FEMM-file that I am working on. If you want to work with this file, just rememer that the inner rotor is 10mm vertically offset from the outer rotor.
Also remember to simulate torque around 0,0, and therfor move the whole structure 10mm up or down depending on which rotor you want to measure.
Also remember to change magnetic orientation for the outer magnets to 0 each time you rotate.

PS! The arrows on the gears on the picture is direction of TORQUE - not rotation! ;)

Maybe someone will try to build it... I am going to anyways ;D
Title: Re: 3D printing a structure for an experiment with magnets
Post by: Low-Q on September 11, 2016, 03:33:00 PM
Made an animation of the concept. hmmm, animated gif doesn't seem to work that well. The local file works on my computer...
Title: Re: 3D printing a structure for an experiment with magnets
Post by: Low-Q on September 11, 2016, 05:05:07 PM

Here is a video from my screen...

https://www.youtube.com/embed/IaTF-ofT4AM
Title: Re: 3D printing a structure for an experiment with magnets
Post by: Low-Q on September 11, 2016, 07:47:45 PM
Lets print out the parts and see what happens next...
Title: Re: 3D printing a structure for an experiment with magnets
Post by: Low-Q on September 12, 2016, 02:24:06 PM
So, I am finishing making the parts. There is a problem with the size. It is too small, and my 3D-printer cannot make the parts, specially the gears, accurate enough. So it is hard to assamble the parts correctly. A printer like this will "bleed" a little extra material, so the parts gets slightly larger and rounded than I want to. The smaller the objects the worse.


So therefor I scaled it up about 250% so I can use the big magnets instead. Hoping for more accurate parts, so everything runs smoothly.


I have wasted my night with a very poor sleep, being thinking, thinking, thinking! Heart beating fast etc. Not good. I guess the excitement has a part in my bad sleep. Maybe I get a heart attack if this thing work...or not work. Let's not hope so :o
What to do if it works? How can overunity possibly be so simple to achieve? What should I say to friends and family without making them believe I have to be hospitalized for being nuts? What about the government? This was questions I struggled with this night, along with a lot of others...


I watched a video of Reidar Finsruds art "Perpetuum Mobile", and suddenly realized (I assume) why his device actually work.
Those three long rods hanging down might be some way of removing, or reduce, counterforces or torques, just like I had in mind with my own rods attached to the outer magnets to prevent them to work against the rotation.


At the same time, I am very sceptic and do not believe in over unity, but I have the tools to build this thing, and hopefully learn an important lesson - whether if it's working or not.


Vidar
Title: Re: 3D printing a structure for an experiment with magnets
Post by: Low-Q on September 12, 2016, 02:48:14 PM
This is my first model - the small one at the very beginning...
https://youtu.be/vbltM7OMiBc


This is the second attempt with 250% size. Gear and the block is parts of the inner rotor. The three equal parts are holders for the outer magnets. The actual outer rotor must be printed later due to lack of printing space:
https://youtu.be/rhjh2NBVywM


Vidar
Title: Re: 3D printing a structure for an experiment with magnets
Post by: Low-Q on September 12, 2016, 11:02:23 PM
Thanks for the kind words webby :-)

I spent most of the last night considering the rods functions as a whole, and couldn't find a reason why this wouldn't pull it off. The primary function is to keep the outer magnets in orientation, and I was probably on the edge of a nervous breakdown...
The idea might not solve anything, but the reason I was thinking of rods is because:

- The outer magnets, if they are free to rotate, they will rotate in the same direction as the rotors. To prevent them from doing that, I first thought of a gear that was connected between these and a stationary gear that surrounds it all. The gear ratio should be correct so the outer magnets kept its magnetic orientation.
The gear-solution would (more obviously to me) have a direct connection to the rotating system. And since they then will rotate counter, relative to the outer rotor, this would have a direct counter torque added into the outer rotor.
In simulations, the sum of this counter torque is 50% of the counter torque in the outer rotor, resulting in a total counter torque if 150% higher than the inner rotor. Since the inner rotor spins 150% faster, the total energy in both gears will end up with the same and opposite. That does not work - obviously.

So therefor I had the idea of controlling the outer magnets counter torque without touching the rotors at all - using external rods connected to the outer magnets.
If I used very short rods, and pressed one rod with my finger to the left of the left hand magnet, the torque so close to the magnet would eventually cause the rotors to go in the wrong direction- almost like pushing on the magnet directly. However, on the opposite side I would push with the same force, also on the left side of the right hand magnet, and cancel the first force.
With gears, where the "angel of attack" will shift from left to right side depending on if the magnet are located on the left or right side of the rotor, just as if I pushed the left hand magnets down and the right hand magnets up. This will not be the case with the rods, because the force is pressed from the same side all the time causing the counter torque to disappear. That's the idea anyways.
Having that in mind, I figured out that the length of the rods in that perspective was not important, but If I do not want to be a part of the system by hand, I chose long rods that goes through a hole some distance away. Those rods will move as pistons in a linear fashion (almost), not rotational - like the pushrods on a locomotive.

A better, and probably less complicated solution, would be to connect each outer magnets with gears, so I only need one rod - and not one rod for each magnet. Because two or more rods must cross each other per revolution. That would eventually cause the rods to twist them self together.

That said, words are empty or false until a practical experiment confirm or disprove the idea. I have no expectations (well, I have just a little) that this will work - it works so fine in my head :-)

Good night. It's late (11 o'clock PM Norwegian time)

Vidar
Title: Re: 3D printing a structure for an experiment with magnets
Post by: lumen on September 13, 2016, 06:34:25 AM
Here is a design that is based on the magnetic interaction of thin magnets to the back side of opposing magnets.
It seem that when a thin magnet overhangs another thin magnet the back faces cause a huge change in the normal result.
Even opposing faces will attract with enough overhang.

Check out the simulation!
Title: Re: 3D printing a structure for an experiment with magnets
Post by: Low-Q on September 13, 2016, 08:53:26 AM
That is an interesting design Lumen.


FEMM does not simulate the Z-axis, only X and Y axis. So I'm afraid this device has to be built... I do not have so many small magnets, but I have 20 pcs long ones that measure 50 x 5 x 2mm, magnetized through thickness.


Vidar
Title: Re: 3D printing a structure for an experiment with magnets
Post by: Low-Q on September 13, 2016, 09:09:32 AM
Here is my two models. As you can see, the small one is not good...
Title: Re: 3D printing a structure for an experiment with magnets
Post by: Low-Q on September 13, 2016, 08:50:25 PM
Here is a design that is based on the magnetic interaction of thin magnets to the back side of opposing magnets.
It seem that when a thin magnet overhangs another thin magnet the back faces cause a huge change in the normal result.
Even opposing faces will attract with enough overhang.

Check out the simulation!
I have watched the animation. What I see is that the rotor magnets are twisting opposingly to the ring magnets magnetic field. That happens in both sides. It appears to me that this rotor would rather go clockwise than counter clockwise. Hard to analyze without the correct data.


Vidar
Title: Re: 3D printing a structure for an experiment with magnets
Post by: lumen on September 13, 2016, 09:23:16 PM
I have watched the animation. What I see is that the rotor magnets are twisting opposingly to the ring magnets magnetic field. That happens in both sides. It appears to me that this rotor would rather go clockwise than counter clockwise. Hard to analyze without the correct data.


Vidar

The twist is only to apply a different reaction between the stator ring of magnets and the two rotor magnets.

At the point where the rotor magnet is vertical (or forming a "+") to the outer ring, then there is more connection to the outside face of the stator ring.

This changes the reaction to the (sticky spot) that would rob any gained energy from the rest of the rotation where energy is gained.
The gain is from the expanding distance while repelling and then the contracting distance during the attraction. By then the magnet has rotated and increases the connection to the back side making the connection almost neutral while crossing the sticky spot.

I am running a 3D simulation to test the process but sometimes in a complicated setup it becomes easier and faster just to build the thing.
Here is the clip to show the backside connection with real magnets. 

https://youtu.be/ZoDg6hVHttU

I don't know if it's something one would try to build with a 3D printer but if I get good simulation results I might build it.
From your projects it appears that printing is a reasonably fast method for prototyping.

Title: Re: 3D printing a structure for an experiment with magnets
Post by: Low-Q on September 14, 2016, 09:30:01 AM
.......
I think about what I have missed,, or might of overlooked or not even considered.

What is the reaction to the pin that will keep your ring magnets in orbit,, is all of the "torque" from those countered by the long rod? or can the long rod reflect that torque in a way you have not considered??  see,, stuff like that is where I tend to go.



I imagined the outer magnets was connected to a spring that forced them to flip over. If I force them back in right position by "winding up " the springs, they will use the tension in the spring to rotate the outer rotor. This seems logic.
So I made a time consuming simulation and calculated torque for every outer magnets center in 12 steps (10° steps for outer rotor, and 15° steps for inner rotor (120° outer rotation, 180° inner rotation)).
In my model in FEMM I have in average -9.5Nm torque in all three outer magnets combined.
The outer rotor has an average torque of -17.5Nm.
The inner rotor have an average torque of +19.5Nm.


Total torque of outer rotor is therfor -27Nm.


Outer rotor have 1 revolution.
Inner rotor have 1.5 revolution.


So:
Outer energy pr. revolution is -169.6 Joule
Inner energy pr. 1.5 revolution is +179 Joule


I need to consider the resolution and accuracy of the simulations. As I have left 9.4 Joules per 1 complete cycle, it is a possible error reading of 5.5%.


Or, if I was right about my first assumptions:
Outer energy pr. cycle is 110 Joule
Inner energy pr. cycle is 179 Joule
Resulting in excess energy of 69 Joule pr. cycle...


Even if I'm a sceptic, I will finish the project, but I need some heavy duty ball bearings that fits 10mm bolts. Friction between PLA plastic and a 10mm bolt thread is so high when the magnets are attracting or repelling eachother, it is impossible to make a good practical experiment. And the printed structures make the outer magnets too wobbly. However, I locked the outer magnets by tightning the bolts that is holding them, and put the inner rotor in place. The inner rotor REALLY wants to rotate (Hard to hold it back), and drags the outer rotor with it, but that was when the outer magnets was fixed in one position on the outer rotor. That proves only one thing so far: The inner and outer rotor have similar torque, but the gear ratio will force the inner rotor to rotate - when the outer magnets are locked/fixed.


Vidar
Title: Re: 3D printing a structure for an experiment with magnets
Post by: Low-Q on September 14, 2016, 01:20:07 PM
The force that is interacting on both is the same quantity,, the radius is what creates what we call torque,,  If the force is the same but the distance to center is not then the longer one has more torque and the shorter one less and then it is radians of change ( degrees of rotation) so the shorter arm needs to move more radians than the longer one to have an equal amount of energy.

Now the gears are then converting that "force of rotation" and they are interacting as a lever with each other,, so that is a sliding face contact and might also have a high friction,, they are passing the same amount of energy as your magnets interaction but on a smaller size.
Thanks for the tip regarding ball bearings and magnetism. The magnet will stand upright with nort/south horizontally, and the bearings also horizontally, but with some 5-6mm space between magnet and bearing.


I have to finish this project. I am comfused, and the only way to confirm its operation is to build it  :)


Vidar
Title: Re: 3D printing a structure for an experiment with magnets
Post by: Low-Q on September 15, 2016, 08:49:23 AM
I have bought 11 ballbearings. 2x3pcs for the outer magnets, 2pcs for the inner rotor, and 3pcs that will roll on the circumference of the outer rotor. This rolling bearings are needed in order to have "free sight" for the rods, so they don't collide with any other structure.


I need to make new rotors to fit the ball bearings.



To be continued...


Vidar
Title: Re: 3D printing a structure for an experiment with magnets
Post by: Low-Q on September 15, 2016, 11:04:25 PM

I have been thinking on a way to eliminate the countertorque that the three outer magnets apply. Not using rods, but another method. A method that I cannot in my wildest imagination think will cause any counter torque. It's hard to explain with words - in an educational way. When the device is finished, regardless if it works or not (It will probably not, but anyways), I will explain with a video, so you don't need to make the same possible mistake as I do right now (still sceptic... :o 


What I do know, is that the method does not violate any law.
The method might be used in several other styles of failed magnet motor attemts - well if the method works. We'll see about that.

So now I am printing parts for the project - hopefully more rigid this time :D

No matter what I have missed out, overlooked etc. I will finish this project :)

Vidar
Title: Re: 3D printing a structure for an experiment with magnets
Post by: Low-Q on September 16, 2016, 06:31:00 PM
I made a video, consisting of a crappy english and poor sound, so listen carefully ;D


The video is from my garage (with lots of crap in it). I demonstrate how I have chosen to eliminate counter torque from the three magnets on the outer rotor.
As explained earlier, the three outer magnets wants to rotate in the same direction as the outer rotor does. To prevent this, these three magnets has to be forced back with gears attached to the outer rotor, for example. The torque in those magnets will therfor add up to the countertorque that already exists in the outer rotor.


The already existent torque in the inner and outer rotor are the same and opposite, but the gear ratio of 2:3 I assume will make the difference in energy output from nill to 150% efficiency....yeah, right!


So I made a "torque controller" that is fixed via a ball bearing and a 8mm bolt.
This torque controller is eliminating the torque caused by the three outer magnets without energy input. Proven by this experiment.
I guess the output energy will drop accordingly - the elimination of the counter torque must come from somewhere. So I have no expectation that this device will work when finished. But it will be finished.


Anyways, here is the video of the concept of controlling couter torque:
https://youtu.be/aoA6D3_lIzM


Vidar
Title: Re: 3D printing a structure for an experiment with magnets
Post by: Low-Q on September 17, 2016, 11:58:45 PM
This project is still on going. I stumbled upon a challenge with the housings for those outer rotor magnets, but that is solved now, and the productin of these holders are going on. Engineering is sometimes a challenge when you start from scratch like this :)


The reason why I build this device is because I cannot find any good reason why it can't work - still, I do "know" that over unity is not possible.
The only thing I can think of, is that simulations in FEMM 4.2 cannot "understand" that the outer rotor magnets have a magnetic field that is locked in one direction all the time.
I tried to connect each magnet with a non magnetic solid material (copper) in FEMM, but the torque readings are still the same. So I assume that FEMM is still calculating the individual torque even if they in practice cannot spin around its own axis. There are no ball-bearing option in FEMM that prevent the magnets from providing torque to the outer rotor. I think that FEMM assumes that the magnets are fixed to the outer rotor, and therfor wants to rotate the magnetic field accordingly. FEMM probably wants the inner and outer rotor to find equilibrium - the sticky spot, and stop there.


If anyone have thougts about this, please let me know.


Vidar
Title: Re: 3D printing a structure for an experiment with magnets
Post by: Low-Q on September 20, 2016, 09:35:11 PM
So. The project is finished and tested. It is pretty wobbely and unstable due to the powerful magnets, plastic parts, and 8-10mm thread bolts that is wobbeling in the ball bearings (The diameter of this bolts is little less than 8 and 10mm. It is possible to turn the rotors with relatively little effort.


This is what I have learned.


FEMM is a tricky software if you want correct results, but it is possible to do the simulation right - given that you know how to do it...I didn't.
What I did wrong in FEMM was a couple of things:
I measured torque. This is useful in most cases. However, my design consisting of 3 independent outer magnets around center will cause FEMM to calculate torque correctly, but FEMM also consider that each individual magnet have its own torque that goes in the opposite way of the desired rotation. This torque is added to the outer rotors torque around center (0,0). For example -15Nm + 5Nm= -10Nm (Clockwise)
Since my outer magnets is held back by what I called the "torque controller", their torque is removed, and total torque of the outer rotor increase to -15Nm.
So I went back to the FEMM simulation and started a time consuming calculation of torque, that is based on X,Y force and vectors. Calculating torque this way will eliminate the individual torque in the magnets. The result of the total torque increased by 50%, from -10Nm to -15Nm.


I tried to link the outer magnets with a non magnetic solid material in FEMM, but that does not make sense to FEMM, because FEMM expect that the magnetic field will follow the rotation when I measure torque instead of X,Y forces at different angels.


The inner rotormagnets in the simulation is physically linked together, and torque measurements will be correct and as expected. Because the magnetic field is following the rotation, as intended. For example 10Nm measurements here versus -15Nm at the outer rotor. Multiplying with the gear ratio of 2:3, this whole thing just won't run.


Since I had a doubt wether FEMM did the simulation as I wanted it to do or not, I built the device to confirm the outcome.
I have spent about $70 on this project, but now I have ball bearings and stainless steel bolts for use in more productive experiments :D


I share my findings even if this was no success, so you don't need to spend time doing the same mistake as I did.


Cheers


Vidar
Title: Re: 3D printing a structure for an experiment with magnets
Post by: Low-Q on September 20, 2016, 10:41:25 PM
Here are some pictures. I have removed the outer magnets, but the magnets in the inner rotor is glued...can't remove them.


Vidar
Title: Re: 3D printing a structure for an experiment with magnets
Post by: Low-Q on September 21, 2016, 08:06:04 AM
Yeah, that glue is a mess. It is actually silicone. I tried to wipe off the most, but it is so messy I didn't manage to clean it all off :D
They got aluminium tape at Biltema or Clas Ohlson over here.
I will try to make a proper simulation of two rotors with the similaer configuration, but where both rotors have the same radius. No expectations if that will work better, but the idea is that the final torque might be more of the same on each rotor. I can then save the present outer rotor for the next experiment.


I do not have weaker magnets. I only have neos that I took from defective speakers and brushless motors.


Vidar