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Author Topic: 3D printing a structure for an experiment with magnets  (Read 9627 times)

Offline Low-Q

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Re: 3D printing a structure for an experiment with magnets
« Reply #30 on: September 13, 2016, 08:50:25 PM »
Here is a design that is based on the magnetic interaction of thin magnets to the back side of opposing magnets.
It seem that when a thin magnet overhangs another thin magnet the back faces cause a huge change in the normal result.
Even opposing faces will attract with enough overhang.

Check out the simulation!
I have watched the animation. What I see is that the rotor magnets are twisting opposingly to the ring magnets magnetic field. That happens in both sides. It appears to me that this rotor would rather go clockwise than counter clockwise. Hard to analyze without the correct data.


Vidar

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy


Offline lumen

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Re: 3D printing a structure for an experiment with magnets
« Reply #31 on: September 13, 2016, 09:23:16 PM »
I have watched the animation. What I see is that the rotor magnets are twisting opposingly to the ring magnets magnetic field. That happens in both sides. It appears to me that this rotor would rather go clockwise than counter clockwise. Hard to analyze without the correct data.


Vidar

The twist is only to apply a different reaction between the stator ring of magnets and the two rotor magnets.

At the point where the rotor magnet is vertical (or forming a "+") to the outer ring, then there is more connection to the outside face of the stator ring.

This changes the reaction to the (sticky spot) that would rob any gained energy from the rest of the rotation where energy is gained.
The gain is from the expanding distance while repelling and then the contracting distance during the attraction. By then the magnet has rotated and increases the connection to the back side making the connection almost neutral while crossing the sticky spot.

I am running a 3D simulation to test the process but sometimes in a complicated setup it becomes easier and faster just to build the thing.
Here is the clip to show the backside connection with real magnets. 

https://youtu.be/ZoDg6hVHttU

I don't know if it's something one would try to build with a 3D printer but if I get good simulation results I might build it.
From your projects it appears that printing is a reasonably fast method for prototyping.


Offline Low-Q

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Re: 3D printing a structure for an experiment with magnets
« Reply #32 on: September 14, 2016, 09:30:01 AM »
.......
I think about what I have missed,, or might of overlooked or not even considered.

What is the reaction to the pin that will keep your ring magnets in orbit,, is all of the "torque" from those countered by the long rod? or can the long rod reflect that torque in a way you have not considered??  see,, stuff like that is where I tend to go.



I imagined the outer magnets was connected to a spring that forced them to flip over. If I force them back in right position by "winding up " the springs, they will use the tension in the spring to rotate the outer rotor. This seems logic.
So I made a time consuming simulation and calculated torque for every outer magnets center in 12 steps (10° steps for outer rotor, and 15° steps for inner rotor (120° outer rotation, 180° inner rotation)).
In my model in FEMM I have in average -9.5Nm torque in all three outer magnets combined.
The outer rotor has an average torque of -17.5Nm.
The inner rotor have an average torque of +19.5Nm.


Total torque of outer rotor is therfor -27Nm.


Outer rotor have 1 revolution.
Inner rotor have 1.5 revolution.


So:
Outer energy pr. revolution is -169.6 Joule
Inner energy pr. 1.5 revolution is +179 Joule


I need to consider the resolution and accuracy of the simulations. As I have left 9.4 Joules per 1 complete cycle, it is a possible error reading of 5.5%.


Or, if I was right about my first assumptions:
Outer energy pr. cycle is 110 Joule
Inner energy pr. cycle is 179 Joule
Resulting in excess energy of 69 Joule pr. cycle...


Even if I'm a sceptic, I will finish the project, but I need some heavy duty ball bearings that fits 10mm bolts. Friction between PLA plastic and a 10mm bolt thread is so high when the magnets are attracting or repelling eachother, it is impossible to make a good practical experiment. And the printed structures make the outer magnets too wobbly. However, I locked the outer magnets by tightning the bolts that is holding them, and put the inner rotor in place. The inner rotor REALLY wants to rotate (Hard to hold it back), and drags the outer rotor with it, but that was when the outer magnets was fixed in one position on the outer rotor. That proves only one thing so far: The inner and outer rotor have similar torque, but the gear ratio will force the inner rotor to rotate - when the outer magnets are locked/fixed.


Vidar

Offline webby1

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Re: 3D printing a structure for an experiment with magnets
« Reply #33 on: September 14, 2016, 12:31:11 PM »
Do you have the same size weaker magnets?

Bearings may impact the magnetic fields if they are in the wrong place,, not sure with your design,, I have also run into free spinning bearings getting stiff when in the wrong field.

I like these "problems" usually,, they are something that DOES have a solution,, and for me it is fun when I figure out how "I" can solve it with what I have.

Off-road skateboards I think use 10mm bearings I.D.  and skateboards use 8mm,,,  clean the grease out of them and they are fairly good,, use a graphite spray lubricant on them.

Rubbing a pencil on both the plastic and the metal shaft might help for a short bit,, I also use form separation spray,, it is very slippery but does not hang around long and you will never be able to glue anything to whatever you spray it on :)

Offline webby1

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Re: 3D printing a structure for an experiment with magnets
« Reply #34 on: September 14, 2016, 12:45:33 PM »
That proves only one thing so far: The inner and outer rotor have similar torque, but the gear ratio will force the inner rotor to rotate - when the outer magnets are locked/fixed.


Vidar

The force that is interacting on both is the same quantity,, the radius is what creates what we call torque,,  If the force is the same but the distance to center is not then the longer one has more torque and the shorter one less and then it is radians of change ( degrees of rotation) so the shorter arm needs to move more radians than the longer one to have an equal amount of energy.

Now the gears are then converting that "force of rotation" and they are interacting as a lever with each other,, so that is a sliding face contact and might also have a high friction,, they are passing the same amount of energy as your magnets interaction but on a smaller size.


Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: 3D printing a structure for an experiment with magnets
« Reply #34 on: September 14, 2016, 12:45:33 PM »
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Offline Low-Q

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Re: 3D printing a structure for an experiment with magnets
« Reply #35 on: September 14, 2016, 01:20:07 PM »
The force that is interacting on both is the same quantity,, the radius is what creates what we call torque,,  If the force is the same but the distance to center is not then the longer one has more torque and the shorter one less and then it is radians of change ( degrees of rotation) so the shorter arm needs to move more radians than the longer one to have an equal amount of energy.

Now the gears are then converting that "force of rotation" and they are interacting as a lever with each other,, so that is a sliding face contact and might also have a high friction,, they are passing the same amount of energy as your magnets interaction but on a smaller size.
Thanks for the tip regarding ball bearings and magnetism. The magnet will stand upright with nort/south horizontally, and the bearings also horizontally, but with some 5-6mm space between magnet and bearing.


I have to finish this project. I am comfused, and the only way to confirm its operation is to build it  :)


Vidar

Offline webby1

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Re: 3D printing a structure for an experiment with magnets
« Reply #36 on: September 14, 2016, 02:31:22 PM »
I see several force vectors that you need to hold,, a double bearing may be needed,, top and bottom placement to stop the rocking on the shaft.

I have used a washer to help reduce extra drag on the bearings,, but I am not one of those "experts" that could tell you exactly what to expect.

I have run into artificial sticky spots due to gear faces not being really nice,, so if you get one spot that sticks or is stiff I would look at the gears.  Like make sure one tooth is not bottoming out or is getting pinched.

This is a testbed and as such it does not really need to work on its own,, what it needs to show is IF the concept may work,, does it turn easier one way than the other???  if so then you might have something or you might have gear issues so reverse the polarity of the magnets if you can and see if now it turns the other way easier.

Looking at it this way the frictional losses you *will* have may not be overly important at this time and allow you to move forward a little faster,, if it turns the same either way,, well that is when you start tweaking things BEFORE you spend a lot of money,, maybe lots of time but not money :)

One trap that I have seen people fall into is the thought that if it was just a little bit better it might work, if the parts were more accurate, so they spend lots of money to have better parts made,, if it is going to work it just will work with sloppy bad parts,, within reason of course,, maybe not on its own but it will show if the concept works or not.

I build lots of things out of tongue depressors, super glue, tape, coat hangers and stuff like that,, I even use cardboard parts,, just to see if the concept is reasonable and provide for a hands on finger toy.    Bamboo skewers make OK bearing shafts some times,, small scale of course :)

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: 3D printing a structure for an experiment with magnets
« Reply #36 on: September 14, 2016, 02:31:22 PM »
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Offline Low-Q

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Re: 3D printing a structure for an experiment with magnets
« Reply #37 on: September 15, 2016, 08:49:23 AM »
I have bought 11 ballbearings. 2x3pcs for the outer magnets, 2pcs for the inner rotor, and 3pcs that will roll on the circumference of the outer rotor. This rolling bearings are needed in order to have "free sight" for the rods, so they don't collide with any other structure.


I need to make new rotors to fit the ball bearings.



To be continued...


Vidar

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Re: 3D printing a structure for an experiment with magnets
« Reply #38 on: September 15, 2016, 11:04:25 PM »

I have been thinking on a way to eliminate the countertorque that the three outer magnets apply. Not using rods, but another method. A method that I cannot in my wildest imagination think will cause any counter torque. It's hard to explain with words - in an educational way. When the device is finished, regardless if it works or not (It will probably not, but anyways), I will explain with a video, so you don't need to make the same possible mistake as I do right now (still sceptic... :o 


What I do know, is that the method does not violate any law.
The method might be used in several other styles of failed magnet motor attemts - well if the method works. We'll see about that.

So now I am printing parts for the project - hopefully more rigid this time :D

No matter what I have missed out, overlooked etc. I will finish this project :)

Vidar

Offline Low-Q

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Re: 3D printing a structure for an experiment with magnets
« Reply #39 on: September 16, 2016, 06:31:00 PM »
I made a video, consisting of a crappy english and poor sound, so listen carefully ;D


The video is from my garage (with lots of crap in it). I demonstrate how I have chosen to eliminate counter torque from the three magnets on the outer rotor.
As explained earlier, the three outer magnets wants to rotate in the same direction as the outer rotor does. To prevent this, these three magnets has to be forced back with gears attached to the outer rotor, for example. The torque in those magnets will therfor add up to the countertorque that already exists in the outer rotor.


The already existent torque in the inner and outer rotor are the same and opposite, but the gear ratio of 2:3 I assume will make the difference in energy output from nill to 150% efficiency....yeah, right!


So I made a "torque controller" that is fixed via a ball bearing and a 8mm bolt.
This torque controller is eliminating the torque caused by the three outer magnets without energy input. Proven by this experiment.
I guess the output energy will drop accordingly - the elimination of the counter torque must come from somewhere. So I have no expectation that this device will work when finished. But it will be finished.


Anyways, here is the video of the concept of controlling couter torque:
https://youtu.be/aoA6D3_lIzM


Vidar

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: 3D printing a structure for an experiment with magnets
« Reply #39 on: September 16, 2016, 06:31:00 PM »
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Offline Low-Q

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Re: 3D printing a structure for an experiment with magnets
« Reply #40 on: September 17, 2016, 11:58:45 PM »
This project is still on going. I stumbled upon a challenge with the housings for those outer rotor magnets, but that is solved now, and the productin of these holders are going on. Engineering is sometimes a challenge when you start from scratch like this :)


The reason why I build this device is because I cannot find any good reason why it can't work - still, I do "know" that over unity is not possible.
The only thing I can think of, is that simulations in FEMM 4.2 cannot "understand" that the outer rotor magnets have a magnetic field that is locked in one direction all the time.
I tried to connect each magnet with a non magnetic solid material (copper) in FEMM, but the torque readings are still the same. So I assume that FEMM is still calculating the individual torque even if they in practice cannot spin around its own axis. There are no ball-bearing option in FEMM that prevent the magnets from providing torque to the outer rotor. I think that FEMM assumes that the magnets are fixed to the outer rotor, and therfor wants to rotate the magnetic field accordingly. FEMM probably wants the inner and outer rotor to find equilibrium - the sticky spot, and stop there.


If anyone have thougts about this, please let me know.


Vidar

Offline Low-Q

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Re: 3D printing a structure for an experiment with magnets
« Reply #41 on: September 20, 2016, 09:35:11 PM »
So. The project is finished and tested. It is pretty wobbely and unstable due to the powerful magnets, plastic parts, and 8-10mm thread bolts that is wobbeling in the ball bearings (The diameter of this bolts is little less than 8 and 10mm. It is possible to turn the rotors with relatively little effort.


This is what I have learned.


FEMM is a tricky software if you want correct results, but it is possible to do the simulation right - given that you know how to do it...I didn't.
What I did wrong in FEMM was a couple of things:
I measured torque. This is useful in most cases. However, my design consisting of 3 independent outer magnets around center will cause FEMM to calculate torque correctly, but FEMM also consider that each individual magnet have its own torque that goes in the opposite way of the desired rotation. This torque is added to the outer rotors torque around center (0,0). For example -15Nm + 5Nm= -10Nm (Clockwise)
Since my outer magnets is held back by what I called the "torque controller", their torque is removed, and total torque of the outer rotor increase to -15Nm.
So I went back to the FEMM simulation and started a time consuming calculation of torque, that is based on X,Y force and vectors. Calculating torque this way will eliminate the individual torque in the magnets. The result of the total torque increased by 50%, from -10Nm to -15Nm.


I tried to link the outer magnets with a non magnetic solid material in FEMM, but that does not make sense to FEMM, because FEMM expect that the magnetic field will follow the rotation when I measure torque instead of X,Y forces at different angels.


The inner rotormagnets in the simulation is physically linked together, and torque measurements will be correct and as expected. Because the magnetic field is following the rotation, as intended. For example 10Nm measurements here versus -15Nm at the outer rotor. Multiplying with the gear ratio of 2:3, this whole thing just won't run.


Since I had a doubt wether FEMM did the simulation as I wanted it to do or not, I built the device to confirm the outcome.
I have spent about $70 on this project, but now I have ball bearings and stainless steel bolts for use in more productive experiments :D


I share my findings even if this was no success, so you don't need to spend time doing the same mistake as I did.


Cheers


Vidar

Offline webby1

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Re: 3D printing a structure for an experiment with magnets
« Reply #42 on: September 20, 2016, 10:25:02 PM »
I pic of the finished project???

My main store for shopping is my failed testbeds :)

Failed,, that sounds so bad,, maybe that should be;  ones that I did not find the problem that they may be a solution for :)

Offline Low-Q

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Re: 3D printing a structure for an experiment with magnets
« Reply #43 on: September 20, 2016, 10:41:25 PM »
Here are some pictures. I have removed the outer magnets, but the magnets in the inner rotor is glued...can't remove them.


Vidar

Offline webby1

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Re: 3D printing a structure for an experiment with magnets
« Reply #44 on: September 20, 2016, 11:08:25 PM »
I think it is beautiful!

Thanks for sharing.

You might want to save those parts,, I get the feeling you are going to have other uses for them,,,,

I have made a lot of testbeds with that kind of lever setup.

I would recommend to everyone that they use weak ceramic magnets for a lot of these kind of things, when you try and actually calculate the stress forces on the structures,, those NEO's are monsters and require your structure to be built REALLY strong for its size.

I use either copper or aluminum tape and wrap the bolt threads to bring it up to the I.D. of the bearing,,,

Aluminum tape can be found in a hardware store in the HVAC section,, it is the real duct tape for heater ducts.

You could get shim stock to do the same thing,, but that costs me more,, a little cleaning of the glue only takes a little time :)

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: 3D printing a structure for an experiment with magnets
« Reply #44 on: September 20, 2016, 11:08:25 PM »

 

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