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Author Topic: 3D printing a structure for an experiment with magnets  (Read 6880 times)

Offline Low-Q

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Re: 3D printing a structure for an experiment with magnets
« Reply #15 on: September 11, 2016, 12:29:28 AM »
Forget that last picture and post. My mistake was to se the sum of all measured torque readings. Each and individual was + and - 50Nm, but the sum was around 2-3Nm. Deviding this on all 72 samples, and virtually nothing is left.


So I have to stick with the alternative on the previous picture (With all the black long rods)
The individual torque of each outer magnets would normally be in addition to the torque around center of the outer rotor, but with the control-rods that keeps these outer magnets in same direction all the time, will reduce the problem to a minimum.
I will be very cautious about what I say now, because I am most probably wrong.
Just by going ahead and try something that my mind says doesn't work feels wrong, and it feels just stupid to actually go building a prototype of something that physics says isn't possible to do...but that is the reason why I will build it ;D


I will come back and report my findings later.


Vidar

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy


Offline webby1

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Re: 3D printing a structure for an experiment with magnets
« Reply #16 on: September 11, 2016, 02:48:33 AM »
It is wrong in so many ways,, and yet that is what I do all the time,, that is why I say that I am nuts,,  I must be right :)

The view I keep is that if something was not appreciated correctly, or applied to some other group interaction instead of on its own,, then there may be something to use, another window to look at things.


Offline lumen

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Re: 3D printing a structure for an experiment with magnets
« Reply #17 on: September 11, 2016, 04:01:33 AM »
Forget that last picture and post. My mistake was to se the sum of all measured torque readings. Each and individual was + and - 50Nm, but the sum was around 2-3Nm. Deviding this on all 72 samples, and virtually nothing is left.


So I have to stick with the alternative on the previous picture (With all the black long rods)
The individual torque of each outer magnets would normally be in addition to the torque around center of the outer rotor, but with the control-rods that keeps these outer magnets in same direction all the time, will reduce the problem to a minimum.
I will be very cautious about what I say now, because I am most probably wrong.
Just by going ahead and try something that my mind says doesn't work feels wrong, and it feels just stupid to actually go building a prototype of something that physics says isn't possible to do...but that is the reason why I will build it ;D


I will come back and report my findings later.


Vidar

With the small rotor moving 1.5 rotations to the larger outer ring rotating 1 the result is zero gain.
Maybe it could be changed so the outer ring with three magnet sets would have the smaller radius and the center ring with the two magnet sets would have the larger radius.
This would have the greater leverage from the increased radius plus the gearing leverage both on the same side providing a gain of 3 to 1 ?


Offline Low-Q

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Re: 3D printing a structure for an experiment with magnets
« Reply #18 on: September 11, 2016, 01:06:57 PM »
With the small rotor moving 1.5 rotations to the larger outer ring rotating 1 the result is zero gain.
Maybe it could be changed so the outer ring with three magnet sets would have the smaller radius and the center ring with the two magnet sets would have the larger radius.
This would have the greater leverage from the increased radius plus the gearing leverage both on the same side providing a gain of 3 to 1 ?
Thanks for the input lumen. I will try that as long the inner and outer magnets doesn't bump into eachother - they have to be synced in 2 to 3 ratio and out of the way of each other :-)


What I have simulated is that there is the same torgue on two gears that has different size. These gears are connected like in the picture below, and rotate in the same direction but at different speed.
The torque is in opposite directions on those gears. However, a small gear attached to a large gear, and apply the same torque on both in opposite directions, I have a feeling that the small gear will win. That is what I have been struggeling with....


This scenario only applies when the outer magnets are externally forced to stay in the same magnetic orientation.
If I use a gear system that is attached to the outer gear, so the outer magnet can rotate in the opposite direction relative to the outer rotor, each magnet will apply approx 50% more countertorque, so the final torque readings on each rotor as a difference of 1.5 times. In that case, the rotors will not go anywhere because the energy is conserved.


Therfor I had the idea of using relatively long rods that is attached to each of the outer magnets, and let them keep the magnetic orientation instead. Then I release the individual countertorques from the actual rotation. That what I hav been thinking. I am probably very wrong, but the thought bugs me.


I also attach a zip-file containng the .FEMM-file that I am working on. If you want to work with this file, just rememer that the inner rotor is 10mm vertically offset from the outer rotor.
Also remember to simulate torque around 0,0, and therfor move the whole structure 10mm up or down depending on which rotor you want to measure.
Also remember to change magnetic orientation for the outer magnets to 0 each time you rotate.

PS! The arrows on the gears on the picture is direction of TORQUE - not rotation! ;)

Maybe someone will try to build it... I am going to anyways ;D


Offline Low-Q

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Re: 3D printing a structure for an experiment with magnets
« Reply #19 on: September 11, 2016, 03:33:00 PM »
Made an animation of the concept. hmmm, animated gif doesn't seem to work that well. The local file works on my computer...

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: 3D printing a structure for an experiment with magnets
« Reply #19 on: September 11, 2016, 03:33:00 PM »
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Offline Low-Q

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Re: 3D printing a structure for an experiment with magnets
« Reply #20 on: September 11, 2016, 05:05:07 PM »

Here is a video from my screen...

https://www.youtube.com/embed/IaTF-ofT4AM

Offline Low-Q

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Re: 3D printing a structure for an experiment with magnets
« Reply #21 on: September 11, 2016, 07:47:45 PM »
Lets print out the parts and see what happens next...

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: 3D printing a structure for an experiment with magnets
« Reply #21 on: September 11, 2016, 07:47:45 PM »
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Offline Low-Q

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Re: 3D printing a structure for an experiment with magnets
« Reply #22 on: September 12, 2016, 02:24:06 PM »
So, I am finishing making the parts. There is a problem with the size. It is too small, and my 3D-printer cannot make the parts, specially the gears, accurate enough. So it is hard to assamble the parts correctly. A printer like this will "bleed" a little extra material, so the parts gets slightly larger and rounded than I want to. The smaller the objects the worse.


So therefor I scaled it up about 250% so I can use the big magnets instead. Hoping for more accurate parts, so everything runs smoothly.


I have wasted my night with a very poor sleep, being thinking, thinking, thinking! Heart beating fast etc. Not good. I guess the excitement has a part in my bad sleep. Maybe I get a heart attack if this thing work...or not work. Let's not hope so :o
What to do if it works? How can overunity possibly be so simple to achieve? What should I say to friends and family without making them believe I have to be hospitalized for being nuts? What about the government? This was questions I struggled with this night, along with a lot of others...


I watched a video of Reidar Finsruds art "Perpetuum Mobile", and suddenly realized (I assume) why his device actually work.
Those three long rods hanging down might be some way of removing, or reduce, counterforces or torques, just like I had in mind with my own rods attached to the outer magnets to prevent them to work against the rotation.


At the same time, I am very sceptic and do not believe in over unity, but I have the tools to build this thing, and hopefully learn an important lesson - whether if it's working or not.


Vidar

Offline Low-Q

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Re: 3D printing a structure for an experiment with magnets
« Reply #23 on: September 12, 2016, 02:48:14 PM »
This is my first model - the small one at the very beginning...
https://youtu.be/vbltM7OMiBc


This is the second attempt with 250% size. Gear and the block is parts of the inner rotor. The three equal parts are holders for the outer magnets. The actual outer rotor must be printed later due to lack of printing space:
https://youtu.be/rhjh2NBVywM


Vidar

Offline webby1

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Re: 3D printing a structure for an experiment with magnets
« Reply #24 on: September 12, 2016, 05:11:13 PM »
Getting close to done :)

I would not tell your friends and family much other than you are playing with alternate  things,, and being friends and family they would take what you have to say and down play it,, or just ignore it or not even understand what you are doing,, really,, they will understand.

My experience has been that "the powers that be" would rather get in on the ground floor of something that might make a change and get to be a part of it rather than try  and stop it,, change is going to happen and resources are finite.

I think about what I have missed,, or might of overlooked or not even considered.

What is the reaction to the pin that will keep your ring magnets in orbit,, is all of the "torque" from those countered by the long rod? or can the long rod reflect that torque in a way you have not considered??  see,, stuff like that is where I tend to go.

I also think that I am wrong,, and so I am doing these things just for the fun of it,, a learning experience,, a way of being self taught.

Above all else,, enjoy what you are doing,, let it make you happy whether you succeed or fail,, after all YOU thought this up right?  YOU built it right? that is worth something.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: 3D printing a structure for an experiment with magnets
« Reply #24 on: September 12, 2016, 05:11:13 PM »
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Offline Low-Q

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Re: 3D printing a structure for an experiment with magnets
« Reply #25 on: September 12, 2016, 11:02:23 PM »
Thanks for the kind words webby :-)

I spent most of the last night considering the rods functions as a whole, and couldn't find a reason why this wouldn't pull it off. The primary function is to keep the outer magnets in orientation, and I was probably on the edge of a nervous breakdown...
The idea might not solve anything, but the reason I was thinking of rods is because:

- The outer magnets, if they are free to rotate, they will rotate in the same direction as the rotors. To prevent them from doing that, I first thought of a gear that was connected between these and a stationary gear that surrounds it all. The gear ratio should be correct so the outer magnets kept its magnetic orientation.
The gear-solution would (more obviously to me) have a direct connection to the rotating system. And since they then will rotate counter, relative to the outer rotor, this would have a direct counter torque added into the outer rotor.
In simulations, the sum of this counter torque is 50% of the counter torque in the outer rotor, resulting in a total counter torque if 150% higher than the inner rotor. Since the inner rotor spins 150% faster, the total energy in both gears will end up with the same and opposite. That does not work - obviously.

So therefor I had the idea of controlling the outer magnets counter torque without touching the rotors at all - using external rods connected to the outer magnets.
If I used very short rods, and pressed one rod with my finger to the left of the left hand magnet, the torque so close to the magnet would eventually cause the rotors to go in the wrong direction- almost like pushing on the magnet directly. However, on the opposite side I would push with the same force, also on the left side of the right hand magnet, and cancel the first force.
With gears, where the "angel of attack" will shift from left to right side depending on if the magnet are located on the left or right side of the rotor, just as if I pushed the left hand magnets down and the right hand magnets up. This will not be the case with the rods, because the force is pressed from the same side all the time causing the counter torque to disappear. That's the idea anyways.
Having that in mind, I figured out that the length of the rods in that perspective was not important, but If I do not want to be a part of the system by hand, I chose long rods that goes through a hole some distance away. Those rods will move as pistons in a linear fashion (almost), not rotational - like the pushrods on a locomotive.

A better, and probably less complicated solution, would be to connect each outer magnets with gears, so I only need one rod - and not one rod for each magnet. Because two or more rods must cross each other per revolution. That would eventually cause the rods to twist them self together.

That said, words are empty or false until a practical experiment confirm or disprove the idea. I have no expectations (well, I have just a little) that this will work - it works so fine in my head :-)

Good night. It's late (11 o'clock PM Norwegian time)

Vidar

Offline webby1

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Re: 3D printing a structure for an experiment with magnets
« Reply #26 on: September 13, 2016, 12:25:40 AM »
I get some strange ideas from when I am sleeping,, well not sleeping but laying there in that restful state where your imagination can create all sorts of cool intricate things,, and make them move,,

No hurry,, time is on your side,, don't forget that,, I can wait so all can wait :)


Offline lumen

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Re: 3D printing a structure for an experiment with magnets
« Reply #27 on: September 13, 2016, 06:34:25 AM »
Here is a design that is based on the magnetic interaction of thin magnets to the back side of opposing magnets.
It seem that when a thin magnet overhangs another thin magnet the back faces cause a huge change in the normal result.
Even opposing faces will attract with enough overhang.

Check out the simulation!

Offline Low-Q

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Re: 3D printing a structure for an experiment with magnets
« Reply #28 on: September 13, 2016, 08:53:26 AM »
That is an interesting design Lumen.


FEMM does not simulate the Z-axis, only X and Y axis. So I'm afraid this device has to be built... I do not have so many small magnets, but I have 20 pcs long ones that measure 50 x 5 x 2mm, magnetized through thickness.


Vidar


Offline Low-Q

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Re: 3D printing a structure for an experiment with magnets
« Reply #29 on: September 13, 2016, 09:09:32 AM »
Here is my two models. As you can see, the small one is not good...

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: 3D printing a structure for an experiment with magnets
« Reply #29 on: September 13, 2016, 09:09:32 AM »

 

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