Cookies-law

Cookies help us to bring you our services at overunity.com . If you use this website and our services you declare yourself okay with using cookies .More Infos here:
http://www.overunity.com/5553/privacy-policy/
If you do not agree with storing cookies, please leave this website now. Many thanks for your understanding.
Amazon Warehouse Deals ! Now even more Deep Discounts ! Check out these great prices on slightly used or just opened once only items.I always buy my gadgets via these great Warehouse deals ! Highly recommended ! Many thanks for supporting OverUnity.com this way.

User Menu

FireMatch

FireMatch

CCKnife

CCKnife

Poplamp

poplamp

CCTool

CCTool

LEDTVforSale

Magpi Magazine

Magpi Magazine Free Rasberry Pi Magazine

Battery Recondition

Battery Recondition

OverUnity Book

overunity principles book

Arduino

Ultracaps

YT Subscribe

movieclipsfree

movie clips free

Gravity Machines

Tesla-Ebook

Magnet Secrets

Lindemann Video

Navigation

Products

Statistics

  • *Total Members: 81714
  • *Latest: Element

  • *Total Posts: 485399
  • *Total Topics: 14269
  • *Online Today: 44
  • *Most Online: 103
(December 19, 2006, 11:27:19 PM)
  • *Users: 8
  • *Guests: 211
  • *Total: 219

Facebook

Author Topic: 3D printing a structure for an experiment with magnets  (Read 5662 times)

Offline Low-Q

  • without_ads
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2379
3D printing a structure for an experiment with magnets
« on: September 02, 2016, 04:41:31 PM »
Hi all,


I have started the 3D printing of a structure that will fit 9x magnets that measure 26mm in diameter and 6mm thick.
Earlier I made a simulation of a GE-rotary magnet motor that actually gave 120%...but unfortunatly impossible to build.
That earlier design had an inner and outer gear with gear ratio 5 : 4. Both rotors measured the same torque in oposite direction, but the inner rotor spun 20% faster, and therfor 20% more energy that could counter the energy in the outer rotor that was holding it back.


No I have started to build one, but with different configuration of the magnets. I know this will not work, but I want to learn more about magnets through practical use.


In the pictures there is two different positions of the inner and outer gear.
Magnet 1, 2, 3 and 4 is placed on the inner gear, and magnet A, B, C, D, and E are placed in the outer gear.
For each 45° rotation of the inner gear, there is 36° rotation of the outer gear. A gear ratio of 5 : 4.


I look forward to see what actually happens when I place those two gears together. They work very fine as a fluid pump when powering it with a motor.... How will it work with magnets? LOL ;D


This is the idea.
Initial position (picture 0-0 degree):
Magnet 1 repels A, attracts E (Strongly)
Magnet 2 repels B, attracts A (Strongly)
Magnet 3 wants to go nowhere, but repels D and attract B (Weakly)
Magnet 4 repels E, attracts D (Moderate/strongly)


After 45° counterclockwise rotation of the inner gear and 36° rotation of the outer gear.

Magnet 1 repels A, attracts E (Strongly)
Magnet 2 repels B, attracts A (Strongly)
Magnet 3 repels C, attracts B (Strongly)
Magnet 4 repels E, attracts D (Strongly)


I would guess that the difference in torque in these gears are 4:5, resulting in zero output. The 3D printed structure will be finished in 5 hours from now. Placing the magnets takes 30 minutes with hot-glue. Whish me luck  :D




Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy


Offline Low-Q

  • without_ads
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2379
Re: 3D printing a structure for an experiment with magnets
« Reply #1 on: September 02, 2016, 06:43:50 PM »
"nitial position (picture 0-0 degree):
Magnet 1 repels A, attracts E (Strongly)
Magnet 2 repels B, attracts A (Strongly)
Magnet 3 wants to go nowhere, but repels D and attract B (Weakly)
Magnet 4 repels E, attracts D (Moderate/strongly)"


I was wrong about magnet 3. It is neutral about midway between C and B. Tested it now with a poor 3D print.
I had to start over with some more infill and slower print. This proves that what one might think about magnets behaviour is not allways right  ;)
The new model is finished in about 4 hours from now....


Offline webby1

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2853
Re: 3D printing a structure for an experiment with magnets
« Reply #2 on: September 02, 2016, 11:54:16 PM »
Pictures or vids would be nice :)

Sounds like you are going to have some fun for a while with this,, magnets are one of those things that can consume hours and hours before you know it.

Have you considered using like facing poles that are the same diameter as the outside of the lobe of the middle gear, pointing the same pole of course, at a metal middle gear?

I think the hollows in the center gear would have an interesting field emanation.

Maybe rotating angled round magnets under the ring so that they turn 1:1 with the ring leaving the same pole in the same area relative to the middle gear????

Just rambling,, carry on having fun :)

Offline Low-Q

  • without_ads
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2379
Re: 3D printing a structure for an experiment with magnets
« Reply #3 on: September 03, 2016, 09:29:05 AM »
Here is pictures during printing, some of the neo-magnets I have extracted from defektive speakers, and the final product.
Actually, the photo of the printing process was my first print of these gears - the one that got very poor quality.


So, what can I say other than being ringt that it does not work. The magnets are so strong they actually deform the outer gear into an oval shape, but if there was excess energy of 20%, it would have no problems in go selfrunning - but it doesn't. Fair enough. Yet another proof that magnets can't do work.


Webby, can you make a simple drawing of what you suggest?


Vidar


Offline webby1

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2853
Re: 3D printing a structure for an experiment with magnets
« Reply #4 on: September 04, 2016, 04:12:10 PM »
It is a good thing you wanted simple :)

I spent some time playing with what I refer to as pinch fields,, like facing poles,, and when you place a permeable substance in between the poles they will shoot out the sides,, thus your middle gear could be showing a single pole face.

By angling the ring magnets,, a logistic issue is there but it was only an idea,,  they could then rotate with the ring gear on a 1:1 basis,, and since you are looking at the leverage created by the field interactions then I assumed that the "lobes" of the ring gear could be plastic.  I was also pondering over having guide magnets static trying to force the field out of the inside of the metal ring,, also the fields will tend to shorten up and head over to the opposite pole as quickly as they can.

From playing with magnets I can tell you that what interaction you may have with weak ones may, and usually is not the same, be different when using stronger ones.

A pull is able to be stronger than a push,, I liken the field force to a long spring,, or a wet spaghetti noodle,, in attraction the force is in a straight line, but when in repulsion the field is able to bend, to distort, burning up some of the mechanical potential by the change in direction of that force relative to what you want it to do.

Small note,, if you are going to use metal filings to see what the field "looks like",, cover your magnets in tape,, it makes it much easier to clean them up.

Small note 2,, the metal filings actually show you THERE interaction with the local sphere of influence and that influence changes with the polarity of the individual filings,, so you will see "lines" but there are no actual lines,, it is all a sphere of influence, a gradient.  I think you know that but it is better said than assumed.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: 3D printing a structure for an experiment with magnets
« Reply #4 on: September 04, 2016, 04:12:10 PM »
Sponsored links:




Offline Low-Q

  • without_ads
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2379
Re: 3D printing a structure for an experiment with magnets
« Reply #5 on: September 04, 2016, 11:01:09 PM »
Thanks for your post Webby.


I actually have a second hand hand ge-rotary oil pump that I bought on Ebay several years ago. It is quite small, and tricky to handle with my magnets. As soon as I put magnets on the outer and inner gear, these gears tend to lock up due to terrible friction.


I must find a way to solve that problem - for example using the 3D printer to print a mold of inner and outer gears, that I fill with iron powder mixed with low viscosity resin (You can buy expensive 2/3 litre + 1/3 bottles with this thin resin and hardner that is used to squirt into gaps in cracked concrete).


Gears can be made larger and therfor easier to handle.


Now I need to spend a small fortune on such resin and iron powder....Doing everything for a good cause, right?  ;D


Vidar

Offline webby1

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2853
Re: 3D printing a structure for an experiment with magnets
« Reply #6 on: September 05, 2016, 03:02:43 AM »
Years ago I played in a friends shop,, he fixed copiers.

What I had access to was a bunch of used toner,, the toner was a metal sphere covered in carbon black plastic,, wash the left over carbon off of it and you had very tiny metal spheres that could be mixed with lots of things,, thick silicone oil or epoxy for example.

I also used it to make 3D locked shapes created by magnetic fields,, a heat lamp fused the toner into shape,, that was an interesting learning aid.

Hobby shop epoxy is not expensive and should be able to work well enough for smallish testbeds.

I think you might not need to have a full metal shape since it is the field interaction that you want to impress upon some solid form,, magnets acting at a distance would still need something to push and or pull against.

My latest casting medium is 2 part polyurethane,, 2 quart bottles for about $35,, I use it to make custom liners for my leg socket and molds for new sockets,, it would not make for a good metal mix but maybe for other parts,, I have used it for gears and winding formers,, but YOU have that nifty printer,,  drool,,,  :)

Oh,, almost forgot,, find a local copier repair shop and see if they have used toner that you could have for free,, take a magnet with you to get the metal stuff,, you can also use a magnet to retrieve it from some cleaning solution.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: 3D printing a structure for an experiment with magnets
« Reply #6 on: September 05, 2016, 03:02:43 AM »
Sponsored links:




Offline Low-Q

  • without_ads
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2379
Re: 3D printing a structure for an experiment with magnets
« Reply #7 on: September 05, 2016, 02:00:36 PM »
I used to work with laser copiers and printers for 10 years, but those printers did not have metal spheres in the toner - only organic toner.
The toner you mention was probably used to attach the actual printing toner into a drum that was charged with a chorona wire. Those printers and copiers was nasty stuff as they spewed out O3 (Ozone) from the corona wire.
These days they usually use a charger foam roller that charge the image drum. A LED-bar with thousands of small IR-LEDs makes sure the surface of the image drum get correctly charged where the organic toner get stuck into, and then transferred into the paper that has an opposite charge.


I think the easiest way for me is to spend a few bucks on iron powder.


There is however one concern using external magnets to magnetize the gears. The magnets will also cover the emtpy space between the lobes of the outer gear, and i addition, the iron will not act like a magnet will do, since the field will mainly follow the iron, and not "send" the magnetic field into emty space between the lobes.


There will be a magnetisation, and interaction between inner and outer gear, but the torque readings will have the same difference as the angular velocity of the gears. So the potential energy that rest in the gears will be equally, and oppose each other. The result is a dead motor.


This is "proven" by simulations in FEMM, and also proven by experiments.


The gears must be magnets to make this work, but the outer gear must be a magnet that rotate in the opposite direction of the rotation of the gear in the same rate, so the magnetic field will point to the same direction all the time regardless of the outer gears orientation.


It is possible to use 5 magnets that by a transmission will keep the same orientation all the time, but the magnets will oppose the rotation as the torque in them will counterforce any change in direction.
The sum of it all will still be a dead motor.


Wouldn't it be fun to find a way around? I'll work on that one.... :-)


Vidar

Offline webby1

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2853
Re: 3D printing a structure for an experiment with magnets
« Reply #8 on: September 05, 2016, 05:28:33 PM »
So you know that smell??  or have suffered that occasional dust cloud :)

I have made  some parts close to what you want for the middle rotor by super-gluing magnets on the metal piece,, ones out at the ends of the lobes and ones on the inside ,, I do not see to much issue with the middle rotor.  I was using the side field (the field between the pole faces) so I had stacks of magnets glued in the basic shape you are dealing with.

The outer one,, the ring,, is a bit of a problem.  The lobes themselves would be influenced by the magnetic field,, so they would have a tendency I would think to want to move to the strongest point in the field,, so a stationary field might be an issue,, and the cost to rotate individual magnets as they rotated with the ring would be rather high as well.

How weak can the field interaction be??

I was thinking,, what if you had a bunch of magnets that were stacked, and a bunch of those stacks with the pole face pointing in towards the ring??

If the distance of separation was far enough so that the rotor field did not change the flux orientation of the ring maybe it could show some motion???
That would be a plastic spacer or some such that is acting as the force transfer medium between the rotor and ring,,


Indeed,, it would be fun to figure it out :)

P.S.  Pinch fields are pushed out of the metal,, my way of looking at it.  Take a short piece of round metal rod and stick magnets on the end with the same pole in contact with the rod ends,, use a viewing film or just metal filings and you will see the field exits the metal I think in the fashion you are looking for.

Offline Low-Q

  • without_ads
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2379
Re: 3D printing a structure for an experiment with magnets
« Reply #9 on: September 05, 2016, 08:22:49 PM »
I remember very very well several years ago, when I had my moment of EUREKA - and some time later I realized that I was wrong. Sooooo close to bust the nature of magnets, when it hit me so hard. The terrible smell of a terrible mistake.
After that I have been extremely sceptic to free energy through over unity.
However, I do now look at this more like something to believe in, even if my rational mind know I can't achieve anything for free.
My wife has her angels, spirits, and superstition. Really not a rational way of thinking, even if she too has a rational mind, but something to believe in. Persuing dreams and whishes - even if it's out of reach.


Enough preaching  ;) - I must do some more simulations, but frankly, I do not think my computer is programmed to make over unity calculations...maybe this is all in vain :P


I'll be back


Vidar

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: 3D printing a structure for an experiment with magnets
« Reply #9 on: September 05, 2016, 08:22:49 PM »
Sponsored links:




Offline webby1

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2853
Re: 3D printing a structure for an experiment with magnets
« Reply #10 on: September 05, 2016, 09:12:43 PM »
Nature is all around us,, even if we choose not to see it.

What I have found over the years that I have been playing with things is that nothing is for free,, there is always a cost,, but it is in the quest for what pays the cost.

I allow myself to "believe" in what I think I have but then I also take the time to keep checking on "what" I have,, I find my mistake and keep on going with the new knowledge I have gained.

So far it looks like the easiest method is in placing yourself between a naturally occurring event, whether or not you set that natural event in motion.

The quest will keep you engaged for the rest of your life,, even if you find one answer,, there may be many  :)

Offline Low-Q

  • without_ads
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2379
Re: 3D printing a structure for an experiment with magnets
« Reply #11 on: September 07, 2016, 04:10:58 PM »
I just got a crazy idea.
I think I might have solved the problem - just an idea this far, and my brain cannot simulate real world physics just by using whishes and hopes.


I made a simulation in FEMM using 5 outer magnets where all points north or south in the same direction.
The inner 4 magnets have south or north pointing outwards.
This is the basic idea I had a few years ago, wher the torque of the outer and inner gear/assambly was the same, but with different gear ratio.
That ratio of 4:5 would force the inner gear/assambly to "win" the competition between the two gears because it spun 20% faster.
As we know from physics, energy from a spinning device is torque multiplied with revolutions per second.


The problem was to keep the magnetic orientation in the same direction for the 5 outer magnets - independent of the orientation through the revolution.
I found that impossible to achieve without loosing that extra energy. Because each magnet have a counter torque, and if we add that sum of countertorque, and add counter torque of the whole outer gear/assambly, the total energy through one revolution is the same and opposite as in 5/4 revolution of the inner gear/assambly. So the output will be zero.


I will now call:
the 5 outer magnets: Outer rotor
the 4 inner magnets: Inner rotor




If the magnetic orientation of these 5 magnets on the outer rotor was held there by hand, the whole thing would start spinning - not surpricingly because you add energy by hand.


Now, what if I fix a long rod to each of the 5 magnets on the outer rotor, and put those rods through a common hole some distance away, it will be the rods that keep the magnets orientation fixed, and not the outer rotor - that was the thought anyways, and right here I might have made the mistake.


If I have not made a mistake:
At the tip of the long rods, there will be less torque per distance to keep the mangets in position than letting the outer rotor do it.


If we say the inner rotor is 4cm in radius, and with an angular force of 5N
The outer rotor is 5cm in radius, and with an angular force of 4N
Both those rotors have the same torque in N per meter, but the gear ratio will make the inner rotor stronger.


So, when it comes to the rods that is 100cm long, the sum of angular force at 100cm distance, for each of the 5 magnets in the outer rotor, would be 0.25N, not 5.
So then we got an angular force at 4cm of 0.75N to spare, and not 0. This will force the inner rotor to continue to chase the sticky spot, and continually try to escape the repelling forces


This is in my dreams only - for now. I will print out some parts, and use some carbon fiber rods I have...


Looking forward to yet another fail  ;D


Vidar


Offline webby1

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2853
Re: 3D printing a structure for an experiment with magnets
« Reply #12 on: September 07, 2016, 05:56:27 PM »
I will hope for the best,, but plan for,,,,

that is just how I am :)

You never learn much from doing things right,, but you learn a lot from doing things wrong!

Offline Low-Q

  • without_ads
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2379
Re: 3D printing a structure for an experiment with magnets
« Reply #13 on: September 08, 2016, 08:53:25 AM »
Working on it...


First I print out the assambly for the outer magnets.


Offline Low-Q

  • without_ads
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2379
Re: 3D printing a structure for an experiment with magnets
« Reply #14 on: September 09, 2016, 03:05:09 PM »
I have done some simulations using LUA-scrips (That I got from a very helpful member here - namely broli)


In the picture below, I did some simulations in FEMM. However FEMM only deal with "plane magnetic fields" not fields that come "out of the paper" like it does in by drawing, but the attraction- and repelling forces should be the same principle.


I used steps of 2 and 3 degrees for outer and inner rotor respectively. I had to do the simulation twice so I could get the results of both rotors. I put the outputs in Excel, and summarize them.


Both rotors have almost the same torque, but in opposite directions. That's fine. Because the inner rotor makes 3 revolutions while the outer rotor makes 2.


When I multiply the torque one complete cycle for each rotor, I got more energy out of the inner rotor than the outer (?!!). This is maybe a design fault in FEMM, but the computer simulates an efficiency of 150%!!!


How is this possible?


Vidar


Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: 3D printing a structure for an experiment with magnets
« Reply #14 on: September 09, 2016, 03:05:09 PM »

 

Share this topic to your favourite Social and Bookmark site

Please SHARE this topic at: