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Author Topic: Would a DC-Motor Rotate Inside a Ring-Magnet ?  (Read 2476 times)

Offline guest1289

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Would a DC-Motor Rotate Inside a Ring-Magnet ?
« on: August 25, 2016, 04:42:30 AM »
   Would the  DC-Motor in the animated-diagram in the LINK below,  'Rotate',   if the 2-Permanent-Magnets in that motor,  were replaced with a  ring-permanent-magnet ?

    ( it would not require commutation for this question  )

    (  would the DC-Motor rotate inside a ring-permanent-magnet instead  )

 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ejs_Open_Source_Direct_Current_Electrical_Motor_Model_Java_Applet_(_DC_Motor_)_80_degree_split_ring.gif   

   (  NOTE : In this animated-diagram,  I can only see that the  electromagnetic-fields  from the relevant sections of the rotating-wire,  are actually  'Parallel'   to the  Magnetic-Field occurring between the 2-permanent-magnets,   instead of being   'Perpendicular'   ?  , 
       SO,  MAYBE this DC-Motor could be a  current-carrying-wire-ring  rotating inside of a   ring-permanent-magnet  )

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Offline guest1289

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Re: Would a DC-Motor Rotate Inside a Ring-Magnet ?
« Reply #2 on: September 01, 2016, 03:10:23 AM »
Quote
ball-cup generator(motor)


https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/mosaics?CC=DE&NR=19741256A1&KC=A1&FT=D&ND=3&date=19990930&DB=EPODOC&locale=en_EP

  Admittedly it's too difficult for me to figure out how the  'ball-cup generator(motor)' functions, as it's presented on there,  but if it's not  brushless,  then it may work like a current-carrying-wire sliding against a metal-ball through which the current also flows,   I have seen working examples on the internet .
_______________________

       The closest I can find to a motor spinning in a  ring-magnet   is :
          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Floppy_drive_spindle_motor_open.jpg

      I can't actually understand how this one functions either .

      I don't have the background or experience to easily understand electric-motors.
_______________________

    However,  there may be some methods to achieve the same effect as a  'DC-Motor Rotating Inside a Ring-Magnet' ,  the only method I can think of at the moment is :
     - Sideways-Overlapping of  'numerous-additional'  of the  permanent-magnets already present in the following motor  :
             
 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ejs_Open_Source_Direct_Current_Electrical_Motor_Model_Java_Applet_(_DC_Motor_)_80_degree_split_ring.gif 

           This could look like the brick-wall pattern.

            I don't know many variations of this idea there could exist,  in all sorts of unrecognizable configurations.

Offline guest1289

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Re: Would a DC-Motor Rotate Inside a Ring-Magnet ?
« Reply #3 on: September 01, 2016, 04:25:14 AM »
   I have to make another post,  instead of updating the post I just made a few minutes ago,  so as not to affect the date/time stamp on that post.
__________

  I'm wondering what about Electric-Versions( hopefully DC ) of my Non-Electric Magnet-Motors,  Magnet-Motor 3.5( Magnet-Motor 10.5 ),      OR,     of any of my  Numerous other  Magnet-Motor  designs which I have posted on this site.
      -   However,  Some of my  Magnet-Motor designs are not posted on this site,  they are only in the  EARLY-DESIGNS-DOCUMENT.doc  file  Attached Below,  the link appears in small text( difficult to see ) on this post.
          (  That  .doc file  contains a lot of my early designs,     the  Magnet-Motors( Some of which I did not call Magnet-Motors in that  document )  are in  diagrams in that  document,  unfortunately amendments to designs in that document are located all over the place,  in that document.   
              -  That document contains the idea of using a magnet shaped like an aircraft-wing to create propulsion in the field between two magnets.
              -  It also contains an idea of using  overlapping-stator-magnets  to cause a Fully-Levitating-Permanent-Magnet( contradicting Earnshaw's-Theorem ) shaped in some shape I couldn't think of,   
 to Rotate.
              -  There may be some more  magnetic-perpetual-motion ideas in that document,  but the  'toy-car' idea is probably worthless.

    Would there be any performance advantages( Doubt-It ! )  in having electric-versions( hopefully DC ) of my Magnet-Motors,  Magnet-Motor 3.5( Magnet-Motor 10.5 ),    OR,     any of my  Numerous other  Magnet-Motor  designs,     in terms of having more efficient  electric-motors,     I can see how some of the designs would look.


Offline guest1289

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Re: Would a DC-Motor Rotate Inside a Ring-Magnet ?
« Reply #4 on: September 01, 2016, 06:07:13 AM »
Quote
    However,  there may be some methods to achieve the same effect as a  'DC-Motor Rotating Inside a Ring-Magnet' ,  the only method I can think of at the moment is :
     - Sideways-Overlapping of  'numerous-additional'  of the  permanent-magnets already present in the following motor  :

     There may be another method :
     -   it would be to use a permanent-magnet that is shaped like a coil ( spiral ) and the DC-Motor would rotate inside of that,  instead of inside a ring-magnet

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Would a DC-Motor Rotate Inside a Ring-Magnet ?
« Reply #4 on: September 01, 2016, 06:07:13 AM »
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Offline lancaIV

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Re: Would a DC-Motor Rotate Inside a Ring-Magnet ?
« Reply #5 on: September 01, 2016, 10:31:03 AM »
  Admittedly it's too difficult for me to figure out how the  'ball-cup generator(motor)' functions, as it's presented on there,  but if it's not  brushless,  then it may work like a current-carrying-wire sliding against a metal-ball through which the current also flows,   I have seen working examples on the internet .
_______________________

       The closest I can find to a motor spinning in a  ring-magnet   is :
          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Floppy_drive_spindle_motor_open.jpg

      I can't actually understand how this one functions either .

      I don't have the background or experience to easily understand electric-motors.
_______________________

    However,  there may be some methods to achieve the same effect as a  'DC-Motor Rotating Inside a Ring-Magnet' ,  the only method I can think of at the moment is :
     - Sideways-Overlapping of  'numerous-additional'  of the  permanent-magnets already present in the following motor  :
             
 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ejs_Open_Source_Direct_Current_Electrical_Motor_Model_Java_Applet_(_DC_Motor_)_80_degree_split_ring.gif 

           This could look like the brick-wall pattern.

            I don't know many variations of this idea there could exist,  in all sorts of unrecognizable configurations.




I never built this ball-cup generator,but what I know after a phone call with the dpma(german patent office in Munich )more then ten years before is that the patent application became DE-granted so it is now "Technical Standart", but since some years commercial free, "open source" !

Offline guest1289

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Re: Would a DC-Motor Rotate Inside a Ring-Magnet ?
« Reply #6 on: September 01, 2016, 11:04:48 PM »
Quote
    However,  there may be some methods to achieve the same effect as a  'DC-Motor Rotating Inside a Ring-Magnet' ,  the only method I can think of at the moment is :
     - Sideways-Overlapping of  'numerous-additional'  of the  permanent-magnets already present in the following motor  :
             
           This could look like the brick-wall pattern.

     A better alternative to  my  'Brick-Wall-Pattern' idea,  would be the arrangement of the Stators-Labelled-B  in the diagram attached below.

Quote
     There may be another method :
     -   it would be to use a permanent-magnet that is shaped like a coil ( spiral ) and the DC-Motor would rotate inside of that,  instead of inside a ring-magnet

    Note: The rotor spinning inside the coil ( spiral ) would never detect the ends of the permanent-magnet that is shaped like a coil ( spiral ),   because it would be right in the middle of the coil,  sufficiently far away from the ends.

   An alternative to a  permanent-magnet that is shaped like a coil ( spiral ),  would be to have a disk-cylinder-permanent-magnet  spinning inside a current-carrying-wire-coil( spiral ) ,  taking into account the previous paragraph.

   

   

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Re: Would a DC-Motor Rotate Inside a Ring-Magnet ?
« Reply #6 on: September 01, 2016, 11:04:48 PM »
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Offline citfta

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Re: Would a DC-Motor Rotate Inside a Ring-Magnet ?
« Reply #7 on: September 03, 2016, 02:19:44 AM »
  Admittedly it's too difficult for me to figure out how the  'ball-cup generator(motor)' functions, as it's presented on there,  but if it's not  brushless,  then it may work like a current-carrying-wire sliding against a metal-ball through which the current also flows,   I have seen working examples on the internet .
_______________________

       The closest I can find to a motor spinning in a  ring-magnet   is :
          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Floppy_drive_spindle_motor_open.jpg

      I can't actually understand how this one functions either .

      I don't have the background or experience to easily understand electric-motors.
_______________________

 

That is not a ring magnet in the floppy drive motor.  That is a ferrite ring that has sections of it magnetized to be NSNSNS all the way around.  This allows it to respond to the activation of the coils.

Carroll

Offline guest1289

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Re: Would a DC-Motor Rotate Inside a Ring-Magnet ?
« Reply #8 on: September 03, 2016, 06:37:20 PM »
   That explains that floppy drive motor.

   I started this thread because I'm wondering if it is possible for an electric-motor to exist that does not create electromagnetic-eddies( or is affected by eddies /  electromagnetic-field friction ) .

   As far as I know, the only electric-motor that does not create electromagnetic-eddies( or is affected by eddies /  electromagnetic-field friction ) is the first motor,  Faraday's-electric-motor  below :

   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Faraday_magnetic_rotation.jpg

   As far as I can see,  it does not create electromagnetic-eddies( or is affected by eddies /  electromagnetic-field friction ),  but just now,  I realized it might create electromagnetic-eddies in the mercury( or it's substitute brine ).

    Is there no version of the Faraday-electric-motor that does not require a liquid.

    -  I can't figure out why  Motor.JPG  ,   the diagram below,  won't rotate
         (  Motor.JPG  is simply a  Disk-Permanent-Magnet( the big-circle in the diagram )  that has the electromagnetic-field of the electric-wire labelled X,  acting on the outer edge of the   Disk-Permanent-Magnet  )
         (  Note :  There are all sorts of alternatives to Motor.JPG ,  for example an electric-wire in a ring-magnet  )

        I thought that the  Faraday-electric-motor  works  Simply  as a result of the  interaction   between the  'electromagnetic-field'( of the  'electric-wire' ),    and,   the  'magnetic-field'  of the  'permanent-magnet' ,  if that is correct,  then surely  Motor.JPG  in the diagram below,  should rotate .
       
         HOWEVER,  I think that apparently the  'electric-current'  in that  'Faraday-electric-motor',  also flows through the  'Permanent-Magnet'  in that motor( in the wikipedia-image link above ),  if that is true,  then why bother having a  'Permanent-Magnet'   in that motor,  they could just have another electric-wire.
__________

   
Quote
     There may be another method :
     -   it would be to use a permanent-magnet that is shaped like a coil ( spiral ) and the DC-Motor would rotate inside of that,  instead of inside a ring-magnet

    Note: The rotor spinning inside the coil ( spiral ) would never detect the ends of the permanent-magnet that is shaped like a coil ( spiral ),   because it would be right in the middle of the coil,  sufficiently far away from the ends.

   An alternative to a  permanent-magnet that is shaped like a coil ( spiral ),  would be to have a disk-cylinder-permanent-magnet  spinning inside a current-carrying-wire-coil( spiral ) ,  taking into account the previous paragraph.

     CORRECTION :  This idea would only use  Coils( Either a  permanent-magnet that is shaped like a Coil,  OR  a disk-cylinder-permanent-magnet  spinning inside a current-carrying-wire-coil ).
    -    I mistakenly also used the word  'spiral' earlier,  because I forgot that a  'spiral'  can imply a 'cone-shape'  which I am not using in this idea,  but perhaps I should look at that .

     Another-Version  of this Coil Idea ( which is  either a  permanent-magnet that is shaped like a  Coil,  OR  a  disk-cylinder-permanent-magnet  spinning inside a current-carrying-wire-coil ),     WOULD BE :  To have a  Coil  Rotating inside a   Larger-Coil .
     But I assume that this idea would create electromagnetic-eddies( or be affected by eddies /  electromagnetic-field friction ) .
       

Offline guest1289

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Re: Would a DC-Motor Rotate Inside a Ring-Magnet ?
« Reply #9 on: September 05, 2016, 01:57:58 AM »
   The following  text I am quoting,  appears on the wikipedia page below :
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homopolar_motor

Quote
Like most electro-mechanical machines, a homopolar motor is reversible: if the conductor is turned mechanically, then it will operate as a homopolar generator, producing a direct current voltage between the two terminals of the conductor.

Quote
Building a simple homopolar motor

Quote
One can attach the magnet to the battery and allow the conducting wire to rotate freely while closing the electric circuit by touching both the top of the battery and the magnet attached to the bottom of the battery. The wire and the battery may become hot if operated continuously.

    "  The wire and the battery may become hot if operated continuously.  "

    I assume  that the text in  bold, above,  could not imply that the  D.I.Y. homopolar-motor   wire and battery get hot because the  motor  is acting as a  generator  at the same time that it is functioning  as a motor,  because not only could that possibly be an  Overunity-Generator,  or contravening the laws of physics,   it could also cause the battery to explode.

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Re: Would a DC-Motor Rotate Inside a Ring-Magnet ?
« Reply #9 on: September 05, 2016, 01:57:58 AM »
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Offline guest1289

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Re: Would a DC-Motor Rotate Inside a Ring-Magnet ?
« Reply #10 on: September 08, 2016, 06:05:48 AM »
   My Design For A  Lenz-Less  Electric-Motor
   (  where the electromagnetic-eddies etc,   are minimized as much as possible )

   Firstly,  it uses the Disk-Permanent-Magnet  and the   Aluminium-Disk  which are both on the same shaft,  as used in the  Faraday-Paradox .

   Then, the  aluminium-disk  has an  aluminium-cone  sealed onto it's outer edge/perimeter,  so that it looks like an  aluminium-cone  with the big round end sealed of with the  aluminium-disk,   however,  the skinny end of the cone does not taper off into a sharp point,  instead,  that skinny point is just a small round hole.

    Then : 
      -  An insulated wire will be put through the skinny end of the cone( which is a round hole ),  and soldered inside the cone to the exact center of the aluminium-disk .
      -  DC current will radiate from the center  of the  aluminium-disk  and out to it's  outer edge/perimeter,  and then the  rest of the  aluminum-cone  is simply used as a conductor  for the current  to travel back to the  power-supply.

     Then,  an  Iron-Disk  is added to the shaft between the  disk-face of the  Aluminium-Cone  and the  disk-permanent-magnet,  this  Iron-Disk  is free to  rotate .

    NOTE: In this version of this motor,  the  Aluminium-Cone  and the   Disk-Permanent-Magnet  do not  rotate,  they remain stationary on the shaft.

    The Idea Is : 
      -  That  electromagnetic-field  from the disk-face of the  Aluminium-Cone  will  exert  a  force on the  Iron-Disk  which  is free to  rotate,   
      -  And,   at the  same time  the  Disk-Permanent-Magnet  which sits on the other side of the  Iron-Disk,  also  exerts  a  force on the  Iron-Disk  which  is free to  rotate,   
      -  It's possible,  that the result will be that the  Iron-Disk  will  rotate.

    NOTE :
    - In another version, you could replace the  Iron-Disk,  with one made of  aluminium or copper.
        - Also,  it may require more than one free-spinning  Iron-Disk ( or made of  aluminium or copper )

    The  disk-face of the  Aluminium-Cone  should  produce a very different electromagnetic-field  to that of a simple  straight-piece-of-dc-current-carrying-wire,  so I don't know if this motor would function.
   

     

       

Offline guest1289

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Re: Would a DC-Motor Rotate Inside a Ring-Magnet ?
« Reply #11 on: September 08, 2016, 08:43:38 AM »
The  'Aluminium-Cone' component I just described,  could be used in a different  electric-motor,  by using the the electromagnetic-field emanated from it's outer edge perimeter( or close to it, wherever an appropriate electromagnetic-field to cause rotation occurs )  in order to cause rotation of either a separate  rotating-component,   or the  'Aluminium-Cone' component itself,  or even both.


Offline guest1289

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Re: Would a DC-Motor Rotate Inside a Ring-Magnet ?
« Reply #12 on: September 10, 2016, 01:54:24 AM »
    'Another'  Design  I Thought  Of,  For A  Lenz-Less  Electric-Motor
    (  where the electromagnetic-eddies etc,   are minimized as much as possible,  or non existent  )

    (  This one is so simple ,  I doubt I'm the first to think of  it )

    (  This design contains 'No-Permanent-Magnets'  )

    The design is simply a  inner-conducting-wire( or an  inner-conducting-solid-cylinder,   or an  inner-conducting-hollow-cylinder ) in the center,    which is  inside  of an  outer-conducting-hollow-cylinder.

    The  DC-current  in the  inner-conducting-wire( or an  inner-conducting-solid-cylinder,   or an  inner-conducting-hollow-cylinder ) in the center,  would flow in the opposite direction to that of the  outer-conducting-hollow-cylinder.
   
    So either the inner-component,  or the outer component would rotate,  or both could rotate.

   Power could be delivered to the  rotating-component( s )  via induction,  or via photovoltaics,  or via  wireless-power-transmission .
 
   The  rotating-component( s )  could rotate on  Non-Electric-Permanent-Magnet-Only-Full-Levitation-Beariings,  so that they would make no physical contact with any other object.

Offline guest1289

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Re: Would a DC-Motor Rotate Inside a Ring-Magnet ?
« Reply #13 on: September 14, 2016, 02:00:27 AM »
Quote
    'Another'  Design  I Thought  Of,  For A  Lenz-Less  Electric-Motor
    (  where the electromagnetic-eddies etc,   are minimized as much as possible,  or non existent  )

    (  This one is so simple ,  I doubt I'm the first to think of  it )

    (  This design contains 'No-Permanent-Magnets'  )

    The design is simply a  inner-conducting-wire( or an  inner-conducting-solid-cylinder,   or an  inner-conducting-hollow-cylinder ) in the center,    which is  inside  of an  outer-conducting-hollow-cylinder.

    The  DC-current  in the  inner-conducting-wire( or an  inner-conducting-solid-cylinder,   or an  inner-conducting-hollow-cylinder ) in the center,  would flow in the opposite direction to that of the  outer-conducting-hollow-cylinder.
   
    So either the inner-component,  or the outer component would rotate,  or both could rotate.

   Power could be delivered to the  rotating-component( s )  via induction,  or via photovoltaics,  or via  wireless-power-transmission .
 
   The  rotating-component( s )  could rotate on  Non-Electric-Permanent-Magnet-Only-Full-Levitation-Beariings,  so that they would make no physical contact with any other object.

    A clarification to this  motor-design  of a   DC-electric-conducting-hollow-cylinder  that  has a smaller(  but same length  )  DC-electric-conducting-hollow-cylinder inside of it,   and the direction of the  DC-current  is different between the  2 hollow-cylinders.

   (  Remembering that the   Inner-DC-electric-conducting-hollow-cylinder  could be substituted with a straight length of wire  )

    The  clarification  is that you would ensure that  current would flow evenly across all the surface of the cylinders by using  'Cones'  to input and output current to the  cylinders .

     This is described in my previous  motor design  in the posts below  :

         http://overunity.com/16822/would-a-dc-motor-rotate-inside-a-ring-magnet/msg491347/#msg491347

         http://overunity.com/16822/would-a-dc-motor-rotate-inside-a-ring-magnet/msg491357/#msg491357
   


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Re: Would a DC-Motor Rotate Inside a Ring-Magnet ?
« Reply #14 on: September 17, 2016, 10:30:05 PM »
        Another Update To This :    Electric-motor-design  of a   DC-electric-conducting-hollow-cylinder  that  has a smaller(  but same length  )  DC-electric-conducting-hollow-cylinder inside of it,   and the direction of the  DC-current  is different between the  2 hollow-cylinders.

     This update is to state the obvious that either the  outer-cylinder,   or  the  inner-cylinder,  could be replaced with a   'permanent-magnet-cylinder',   and that the   DC-electric-conducting-cylinder   would be the component that would rotate,   since I assume it would be impossible for the  'permanent-magnet-cylinder'  to rotate due to  Faraday's-paradox.

    Also,  attaching the  'cones' to the cylinders :
       It would be a good idea to attach the  'cone' to the  outer-cylinder  so that it is slanting  in the opposite angle to that of  the   'cone' to the  inner-cylinder ,   so that the  electromagnetic-fields  between the 2  'cones' do not interact with each other,  since  'eddies'  could occur there .

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Re: Would a DC-Motor Rotate Inside a Ring-Magnet ?
« Reply #14 on: September 17, 2016, 10:30:05 PM »

 

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