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Author Topic: Faraday paradox revisited,magnetic field rotation question.  (Read 20438 times)

Offline allcanadian

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Re: Faraday paradox revisited,magnetic field rotation question.
« Reply #75 on: August 28, 2016, 09:35:37 PM »
@Polac
Quote
how did you levitate it? levitron stuff?


I built my own hall effect levitation circuits to experiment with levitation which eventually led to my inventing several 99% passive magnetic bearings. Everyone seems to have a really hard time wrapping their mind around these concepts and I could flick the magnet shown in the levitator I posted and the magnet would spin for hours, not minutes but five to six hours easy. I levitated a 40 pound rotor on my magnetic bearings and could give it a spin with my hand and hours later it was still rotating. People think they understand but they don't because you have to see it to believe it.


I have also built many of my own electronic electrometers and EM detector arrays many years ago which is how I know you do not have a hope in hell of measuring anything spinning a magnet on a string or a chair. Anyone who has built the Faraday Generator and any variations of it and actually tested it would know it requires a substantial RPM to generate even a very small voltage. Anyone who has actually built an electrometer would know there is zero chance of measuring a voltage that small from a distance.


No offence but I'm starting to think nobody here has built or tested anything otherwise they would know these things. I'm starting to wonder if anyone here has proof to justify any of their claims and that this is all unsubstantiated speculation at best.




AC

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Offline PolaczekCebulaczek

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Re: Faraday paradox revisited,magnetic field rotation question.
« Reply #76 on: August 28, 2016, 09:45:46 PM »
yeah but faraday measured magnets e field with primitive electroscope?

my plan is to rotate magnet on electric drill


Offline lumen

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Re: Faraday paradox revisited,magnetic field rotation question.
« Reply #77 on: August 28, 2016, 10:25:21 PM »
Well there you go PolaczekCebulaczek , you don't need to spin it at all.
You can just ask AC what the results will be and he can just set you straight!

Offline allcanadian

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Re: Faraday paradox revisited,magnetic field rotation question.
« Reply #78 on: August 29, 2016, 03:05:39 PM »
@Polac
Quote
yeah but faraday measured magnets e field with primitive electroscope?[/size]my plan is to rotate magnet on electric drill


I believe Faraday used a galvanometer or as we call it an ammeter to measure the small currents from the generator brushes.  A drill should work as they run from 2500-3000 rpm however a string is pretty much useless. Larger diameter magnets work better because the perimeter velocity increases with diameter at ant given RPM.


The electronic electrometer works good for high voltage and it can detect a person combing their hair 30 feet away. However it is almost impossible to detect smaller voltages, say under 12v, at any distance unless physical contact is made. I have built foil type electrometers and the electronic version is thousands of times more sensitive than a foil type electrometer. You can use op-amps to amplify the signal from an electronic detector however then interference from let's say your drill becomes a big issue. It will also detect contact electrification between materials so we need to ask, is it an induced emf or is it intermittent brush contact or something else.


Reality is not the same as speculation as I imagine you already know and even seemingly simple experiments have a way of becoming very difficult in a big hurry.


AC


Offline Low-Q

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Re: Faraday paradox revisited,magnetic field rotation question.
« Reply #79 on: August 29, 2016, 06:54:28 PM »
hello

I decided to start this topic because I want to summarize all we know about Faraday disk paradox in one topic on this forum, this may be helpful for further homopolar generator study.The most important question is "Does magnetic field rotate with magnet or not?"
let's consider a situation like this :

A coil is wrapped around a magnetized core (cylinder magnet). Both the coil and magnet are rotating together around the axis of the cylinder. Will current be induced in the coil?
This permanent magnet is ceramic, not iron; this should stop any induction taking place inside the metal body of the magnet.(if magnetic field does not rotate) This will simplify things and eliminate unwanted effects.

anyone tried this configuration?
If both the winding and the magnet is spinning at the same RPM, nothing will happen. If only the magnet is spinning there will still not be any induction in the coil.
The reason is this: The magnetic field is not changing in strength as it cross the coil even if the magnet is spinning or not, but is the same all the time. If you put that magnet inside a narrow copper tube, and drop it, the magnet will induce currents in the copper that will force the magnet to slow down. However, if you make an initial spin to the magnet, it will spin freely inside the copper tube, with only air as the resistance.


Magnetic fields must cross the wire in only one direction, like it is done in generators. And the magnetic field density has to change in order to induce anything through a wire. So if you push the magnet up and down through the coil, the coil experience a change in magnetic field density, and therfor it is the only way to induce anything through the coil.


Vidar

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Re: Faraday paradox revisited,magnetic field rotation question.
« Reply #79 on: August 29, 2016, 06:54:28 PM »
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Offline lumen

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Re: Faraday paradox revisited,magnetic field rotation question.
« Reply #80 on: August 29, 2016, 07:18:46 PM »
All the information here is old and there is no reason to try it again thinking there could be different results.

I thought the new test was to build a super sensitive electroscope using a mosfet so we could detect any rotation of the magnetic field without any contact to the rotating magnet rather than simply repeating the old brush and disk controversy that adds nothing to the understanding of what's really going on.

In theory the rotating field would cause and uneven distribution in the probe and should be able to trigger the detector if the probe was already preset to only a few millivolts from triggering.



« Last Edit: August 30, 2016, 07:05:12 AM by lumen »

Offline guest1289

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Re: Faraday paradox revisited,magnetic field rotation question.
« Reply #81 on: September 01, 2016, 11:42:29 PM »
  Now that I understand the  Faraday-Paradox  not only do I see how correct it is,  I also now understand various other widely-accepted concepts in mainstream physics,  that is :
    - a magnet cannot function without the medium,  it's magnetic field will not be present without the medium
    -  this also links with the  curie-point of magnets,  imagine a magnet floating so far away from the universe that there is insufficient medium for it to have a magnetic-field,  which it could not produce anyway,  because it would be too frozen.
________

    Now I wonder what about radiation( light etc ),  what happens to light when it travels sufficiently far away from the universe,  does the lack of the medium somehow slow it down( or physically change it ),  causing it to somehow fall back to the universe,  and when it's back in the medium it's 'rehydrated' or something.
______

   My idea of using the RPM comparison to test the  Faraday-Paradox,  that is very very feasable
      -  You could encase coils, windings, or permanent-magnets in Solid-Plastic,  so they themselves would never experience any air resistance
      -  And theres so many different types designs of electric-motors which do cause rotation,  even though the device looks nothing like an electric-motor,  for example they have no coils/windings
______

   I don't know if the photo of the Magnetic-Levitation posted on this thread is   Non-Electric-Permanent-Magnet-Full-Levitation( visually contravening Earnshaw's-Theorem ),  or electromagnetic-levitation.

    What is the barrier to people posting photos/videos of   Non-Electric-Permanent-Magnet-Full-Levitation( visually contravening Earnshaw's-Theorem ) on the internet,   it is actually still within Earnshaw's-Theorem( and theory of magnetic-levitation ),  it is actually mentioned ( unclearly, and badly ) right on the wikipedia pages of both  Earnshaw's-Theorem and   Magnetic-Levitation ,   so obviously your not contravening any laws of physics,  there should be no reason for suppression

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Faraday paradox revisited,magnetic field rotation question.
« Reply #81 on: September 01, 2016, 11:42:29 PM »
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Offline PolaczekCebulaczek

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Re: Faraday paradox revisited,magnetic field rotation question.
« Reply #82 on: September 02, 2016, 08:56:56 PM »
I just ordered some magnets for final experiment.

meanwhile..

this probably has been discussed 100 of times but once again for sake of this topic:
Would a magnet like this rotate if current flows in wire ?
What will happen if compass is inside the ring?

Offline Magluvin

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Re: Faraday paradox revisited,magnetic field rotation question.
« Reply #83 on: September 02, 2016, 11:16:10 PM »
I just ordered some magnets for final experiment.

meanwhile..

this probably has been discussed 100 of times but once again for sake of this topic:
Would a magnet like this rotate if current flows in wire ?
What will happen if compass is inside the ring?

Would have to be individual mags to make the ring, if it did work. Like the paradox, the field of the mag you show would have the same non effect as putting current through the copper disk trying to spin the ring magnet. It wont spin, but the copper disk will. ;)

Mags

Offline lumen

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Re: Faraday paradox revisited,magnetic field rotation question.
« Reply #84 on: September 03, 2016, 02:48:23 AM »

this probably has been discussed 100 of times but once again for sake of this topic:
Would a magnet like this rotate if current flows in wire ?
What will happen if compass is inside the ring?

I like this experiment because a single conductor generates a special circular field that should cause the magnet to spin.
In the Faraday paradox there are only three things that are actually going on:

1: When the magnet spins with the disk, the disk serves only as a conductor and current is generated from the flux cutting the brush/external conductor.
2: When the magnet is stationary, the disk is cutting the field as it rotates and the brush is only a conductor.
3: The uniform field is another special case and can have the effect of sliding because the field is of the same magnitude will do no work by sliding.

It is number "3" that your experiment is testing and is likely that it will NOT rotate if number "3" is true in which case the Faraday generator is trapping the uniform field between two conductors and forcing it to cut either the disk or the brush/conductor in which case it would actually be cutting both as 1/2 rate.


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Re: Faraday paradox revisited,magnetic field rotation question.
« Reply #84 on: September 03, 2016, 02:48:23 AM »
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Offline guest1289

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Re: Faraday paradox revisited,magnetic field rotation question.
« Reply #85 on: September 03, 2016, 07:52:02 PM »
Quote
1: When the magnet spins with the disk, the disk serves only as a conductor and current is generated from the flux cutting the brush/external conductor.

    - When the aluminium-disk has current flowing through it,  surely it must produce an electromagnetic-field (  I assume that  that  electromagnetic-field    is so small that it is disregarded in this experiment ) .
_______
 
     The  Earth's-Magnetic-Field
      -  Does this experiment need to be done up in space somewhere, to totally exclude any interference  'in any way' from the earth's-magnetic-field(  and Earth's-Electric-Field  etc ) .
          I say this because this experiment is :
            -  done at a very high rpm
            - the earths field is strong enough to enable a compass to function

          Spinning the Aluminium-Disk Without the Magnetic-Disk anywhere near it.
           -  So, if you just spin the  aluminium-disk  without the Magnetic-Disk anywhere near it,  horizontally( or is that vertically ) in relation to earths surface,   THEN,  shouldn't it generate some current from it's interaction with the earth's-magnetic-field(  or Earth's-Electric-Field  etc ),  but I assume the current generated would be very small .   
______

    Those  Magnokraft designs ( ufo propulsion, I assume using a  magnetic-field-repelling  against the earths-magnetic-field ),  for those designs it wouldn't matter if the magnetic-field spins with the magnet or not,  since they would just worry about the magnetic-field intensity / size .
     The last thing I read about those,  was that  they wanted to try  using  superconductors( or,  superconducting  neodymium ), I can't remember .

   So now I assume that the  fast-rotating-magnets  in the hoverboards,  are not  single  One-Piece  Disk-Permanent-magnets,  instead they would be fast rotating wheels with a couple of magnets set into the wheel,  to state  the  obvious.
     

Offline Low-Q

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Re: Faraday paradox revisited,magnetic field rotation question.
« Reply #86 on: September 03, 2016, 09:12:20 PM »
I just ordered some magnets for final experiment.

meanwhile..

this probably has been discussed 100 of times but once again for sake of this topic:
Would a magnet like this rotate if current flows in wire ?
What will happen if compass is inside the ring?
The magnet will not rotate.
The compass will not point in any fixed direction.


Vidar


Offline kmarinas86

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Re: Faraday paradox revisited,magnetic field rotation question.
« Reply #87 on: September 04, 2016, 04:53:22 PM »
I just ordered some magnets for final experiment.

meanwhile..

this probably has been discussed 100 of times but once again for sake of this topic:
Would a magnet like this rotate if current flows in wire ?

It would not rotate. What you have to consider is that magnets carry embedded magnetization currents, and these give rise to an equivalent surface current. If you have a compass needle, that equivalent surface current will run across the magnetic field on the sides of the compass needle facing toward or away from the magnetic field. So if you have a compass needle in that magnetic field, there will be a torque on compass aligning it with the circular magnetic field of the current based on q(v x B). the However, the magnet you have here is a ring magnet that is magnetized radially. The equivalent surface current in this case runs along the circumference along concentric rings centered on the axis of the ring magnet. The result is that the equivalent surface current on the ring magnets that will run parallel to the magnetic field lines of the wire current, so there will be no Lorentz force q(v x B) and the magnet will fail to turn.

What will happen if compass is inside the ring?


It will align with the combined magnetic field of the permanent magnet and the current through the wire. If you put it in the exact center, then it will have no preferred direction of alignment.

Offline kmarinas86

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Re: Faraday paradox revisited,magnetic field rotation question.
« Reply #88 on: September 04, 2016, 05:14:13 PM »
Would have to be individual mags to make the ring, if it did work.


There would be a torque on the individual magnets, but torque on the individual magnets does not automatically mean torque on an arrangement of magnets on a disk. Note that the torque on the individual magnets would cause opposite forces on opposite ends of each magnet, which is why a compass needle turns in the presence of the magnetic field of a wire current. However, if you are taking about rotating the rigid ring magnet assembly with the magnets oriented perpendicular to the wire path, those same forces which apply a net torque on the individual magnets do not apply a net torque to the whole assembly because those forces are directed toward/away from the wire. The reason? You have to consider that the force on the magnet is actually the force on the equivalent surface currents that are the sum of all magnetization currents within that magnet. The forces that turn the magnet are at right angles to both the wire current's magnetic field and the equivalent surface current of that magnet, which wraps around the surface between the magnet's poles. If your poles are oriented at right angles to the wire, then the equivalent surface currents running along the side perimeter of each magnet will cross the magnetic fields of the wire current and will result in Lorentz forces that are perpendicular to the wire, which means the rigid magnet assembly will not revolve around the wire, although their will be a stress on each magnet attempting (in vain) to rotate the magnets at their the current position.


Offline guest1289

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Re: Faraday paradox revisited,magnetic field rotation question.
« Reply #89 on: September 05, 2016, 01:33:10 AM »
       The only  replicated-test  that makes me wonder about the  correctness  of the  Faraday-Paradox,   is,  The first ever  electric-motor,  which was invented by  Faraday.
       ( the paradox  implies that the field of a  disk-permanent-magnet  stays stationary when the disk-magnet  rotates )

   This motor came in two configurations :
     ( 1 ) -   the  current-carrying-wire,   rotating  around  the  permanent-cylinder-magnet
     ( 2 ) -   or,  the  permanent-cylinder-magnet  rotating  around  the  current-carrying-wire

       The two configurations can be seen in the diagram in the link below :   

       https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Faraday_magnetic_rotation.jpg

       Every description I have read about this motor states that the rotation is  simply  as a result of the interaction between the field of the   current-carrying-wire,   and   the field of the  permanent-cylinder-magnet.

       And yet the  Faraday-Paradox, and the statements from most members on this site,  imply  that  that   permanent-cylinder-magnet    'Should Not Rotate',  and yet it  does.

      (  Admittedly,  I can't determine if or not  electric-current  flows through the  permanent-cylinder-magnet  in this  motor,  if it does,  then why didn't he just replace the  permanent-cylinder-magnet  with  another   current-carrying-wire or conductor .
        So,  A DEFINITIVE TEST would be if someone would make a version of this motor that would  ensure  that no  electric-current  flows through the  permanent-cylinder-magnet,   so instead of using the liquid( mercury, or brine ) in this motor,  it could use  brush-contacts instead     )

     NOTE : The versions of the homopolar-motor like the version in the link below,  would not be suitable for  A DEFINITIVE TEST
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Homopolar_Motor_Large_neutral.jpg

     

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Re: Faraday paradox revisited,magnetic field rotation question.
« Reply #89 on: September 05, 2016, 01:33:10 AM »

 

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