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Author Topic: Series Cap Scavange  (Read 8766 times)

Offline webby1

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Re: Series Cap Scavange
« Reply #30 on: August 18, 2016, 08:23:43 PM »
I am now using a larger wall wart,, it is rated at 1.5A @ 12V,, the other one is only .2A and so I was over-driving it a little bit :)

Using my Fluke 77 meter and comparing the draw from the house mains and the output voltage of the wall wart to the main motor,, not sure if this means anything or not but I expected a small drop in output when the scavenge system was in place due to the increase in IR^2 losses.

Without

49.9mA AC draw @ 120V AC
Motor run voltage
14.78 DC

With

51.2mA AC draw @ 120V AC
Motor run voltage
14.45 DC

I will run those again a few times to make sure I am not getting it backwards :)

They seem to be reasonable in that with the system there should be more losses so more current draw and less voltage output would seem correct,, that is what I thought would happen.

I am using my meter on the 300mA scale so it does introduce a resistance and I am not sure if the readings are in average RMS or not,, my other meters are but they do not allow me to get a low reading,, they show a .02A draw with either system and a 0.0A draw without the toroid output load being used,, my choices with those are 20A un-fused or 20mA. Cen-Tech P37772

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Re: Series Cap Scavange
« Reply #30 on: August 18, 2016, 08:23:43 PM »

Offline webby1

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Re: Series Cap Scavange
« Reply #31 on: August 18, 2016, 11:03:11 PM »
There seems to be something unique with this toroid transformer.

It is out of a Denon Audio Amplifier, the number on the sticker on the toroid is

IS-H040918   NRE

I am using the Blue and Black wires for the AC throughput and the Red wires for the scavenge. (I added a second black wire to the center tap after splitting it)

If I use another winding set that is center tapped I can not get much of a drop from the main motor,, I then also tried another large transformer, out of the same amp,, but I still was only able to get a 1 to 1.5V drop.

Using this toroid without the scavenge load, the main motor sees 6.5V and with it it sees 14.5V.

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Offline webby1

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Re: Series Cap Scavange
« Reply #32 on: August 19, 2016, 03:35:53 PM »
The resistance of the throughput coil (blue to black) is about 0.4 ohms, the core is about a 3X4X3X4 square.

The scavenge is about 2.5 ohms

The coil tag has it

pri : 120V .....0V (red red)  125*C

40V ... 0V .... 40V  ( blue black black blue)

The wire diameter with lacquer is about 0.9mm

The donut has an ID of about 45mm and an OD of about 105mm

I have not unwound the thing to get exact measurements.

Offline webby1

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Re: Series Cap Scavange
« Reply #33 on: August 23, 2016, 07:48:41 PM »
I removed some of the plastic wrapping so I could see the wires better.

The Red wires are a smaller size but bifillar and appear to be going all the way around the core.

The Blue and Black wires are the larger size and also appear to be going around the core more than once with the black wires being the center tap point,, it looks like they are a continuous wrap direction.

There was a breaker in the Red wires but that is removed.

The Red wires are the first ones on the core with the Blue and Black wires being the outer most wraps,, so the scavenge is between the throughput windings and the core.

Using the toroid after the wall wart drops the output from the wall wart down to zero with no scavenge, up to 12.66V with the scavenge shorted.

With the scavenge open the draw from the wall wart is 46mA, with everything disconnected from the wall wart its draw is 46mA, with everything connected, scavenge shorted and the load running, the draw is 52mA and the load motor is  using APR. .07A DC @ 12.66V DC.

With the toroid between the wall wart and the house mains the output voltage is 12.74 scavenge shorted and 7.52 scavenge open.

I tried to make a long straight version of the toroid,, with the throughput wound on the soft metal core,, the best change I could get was 0.5V,, those were a single layer for the throughput and a single layer on top of those for the scavenge.

I am thinking that the throughput coils are connected so that they increase the impedance,, like a motor spinning at max RPM with no load, and then when the scavenge coil is engaged it supplies the load to the "motor" and that increase in draw allows current and voltage to pass through the throughput coils and to the load.

This is all kind of interesting,, to force the input to pass through the toroid I must take "other" energy away.


Offline webby1

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Re: Series Cap Scavange
« Reply #34 on: August 23, 2016, 09:50:50 PM »
Just wondering,,

If you took 2 of these toriods setup like this and hooked the throughput coils together in something like a resonant circuit so that the current could grow,,

When you started to take energy out of the scavenge coils then the circulating current between the 2 toroids would go up, one using and then feeding it to the other,, the losses would be the IR^2 losses of the throughput coils and I would not think that the scavenge output value itself would impact the input except for the increase in current flow increasing the IR^2 losses.

This sounds to me like a reasonable approach to achieving free electricity.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Series Cap Scavange
« Reply #34 on: August 23, 2016, 09:50:50 PM »
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Offline webby1

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Re: Series Cap Scavange
« Reply #35 on: August 25, 2016, 10:43:23 PM »
I have tried a few small multi-wound toroid devices and none of them exhibit the same behavior as the large one I am using,, I think part is due to me using it for a watt or 2, or less, and the transformer being designed for a couple hundred watts.

The core is a roll of metal,, I am assuming it is one of those fancy metals,, and then it is covered with several layers of plastic,, for the Red wires that are first on the toroid they are about 0.5mm, at most, spaced away by the plastic,, then there are more layers of the plastic so that the Blue\Black wires are a further 0.5 mm to 1mm away.

Interesting.

Offline webby1

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Re: Series Cap Scavange
« Reply #36 on: August 26, 2016, 04:08:00 PM »
I took a normal E core transformer,, a large one out of an audio amp,, this one is setup with the center tap and stuff just like the toroid.

On low power pass through,, that is using my wall wart between the house mains and the transformer, passing through the two pass through windings and into a FWBR and to a small load motor.

I get between 13.04V DC showing at the motor when the pass through are connected one way and that is with or without a scavenge, flip the connections over for one of the coils and I get 5.45V without the scavenge and 12.25V with.

Then I took and placed a 53-64 MFD  220 VAC starting cap and connected it across one of the pass through coils and the with scavenge the motor had 12.35V and without 2.4V.

Using this transformer the draw for the wall wart from the house mains was 46.5mA AC no scavenge and 49.8mA AC with,, without the transformer the draw was 52mA and the motor had 13.2V DC.

These numbers are all just a quick hook up and change,, so I would need to take more time to get consistent numbers.

Somehow the toroid without scavenge is dropping the output voltage down to less than 1.5V, the diode voltage,, and a normal transformer needs to have a capacitor used to get it to drop.

An interesting thing is that if I use the winding that is wound with the pass through coils I do not get very much change,, it is when I use the windings that are next to the core that gives me the most change,, so they are wound on a separate former.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Series Cap Scavange
« Reply #36 on: August 26, 2016, 04:08:00 PM »
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Offline webby1

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Re: Series Cap Scavange
« Reply #37 on: August 27, 2016, 04:39:20 PM »
I grabbed a multi-plate capacitor out of an old TV set.

450 VDC

UF
80
30
20
Case is common.

I am using the 80 and 20 plates, I have one side of the other pass through coil hooked to one plate and the other side hooked to the other plate.

Doing this actually increased the voltage to the load motor but decreased the draw from the wall wart,, it is now below the non loaded draw value and when I stall the load motor the draw goes even lower.

Looking at what I have I got a flash-back to my youth and my model electric trains,, I had this large transformer that I plugged into the wall and an output I plugged into the track and it had a knob that I turned to control the speed of the train.

I would assume that if I had the correct capacitors in place that the wall wart draw would be almost nothing with no scavenge happening, then as I took power out from the scavenge coil the draw would go up and the output would go up.

The toroid seems to get around the added pieces for output but not for the no load draw from the wall wart.

Offline webby1

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Re: Series Cap Scavange
« Reply #38 on: August 31, 2016, 11:22:59 PM »
Just playing with the toroid a little :)

I have made a few coils but still not getting close to what the toroid can do.

These are some numbers from tests I just ran,, not that it is showing OU or nothing but it is interesting that I can drop the wall wart consumption down and raise its output up.

I cleaned up the motor FWBR and added a 10,000 uf cap to it, that seemed to of raised the output run voltage from just the wall wart to motor,,  I also ran a test from my PS to see what it shows as the draw when the motor is running at 21V DC

motor draw

50mA @ 21V DC

wall wart draw no load

44.8 mA @120V AC

wall wart to motor

50 mA AC @ 120V AC

48.5mA DC @ 16.5V DC

with system

wall wart
 34.1 mA AC @ 120V AC

scavange showing
.05A AC

motor drawing

54.5 mA DC @ 21.3V DC I placed the motor on a silicone mat and that seemed to increase its draw,, I only did it for this one,, it was noisy from its vibrations.




Offline webby1

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Re: Series Cap Scavange
« Reply #39 on: September 01, 2016, 02:41:14 PM »
I was curious as to what the wall wart is putting into the system.

I am using the house mains so the input to the wall wart is a little up and down depending on the mains load elsewhere so these are just one point in time.

Wall wart output

.0766A AC 12.71V AC

Motor draw

.0492A DC  20.6V DC

Letting it run for a while the Wall wart will go down to 0.0754A AC and 12.63V AC,, and the motor draw will go down to 0.043A DC 20.5V DC.

I am using my Fluke 77 for the current from the wall wart which shows a 0.1 reading when locked with nothing connected,,

Also it takes a little bit of run time to fill up the 10,000 uf cap

Right now things are

0.0775A AC 12.64V AC
0.0496A DC  20.4V DC

and dropping
0.0769A AC  12.61V AC
0.0493A DC  20.4V DC

They will move around

ETA:  My Fluke is set to the 300mA range so the 0.1 is actually 0.0001A AC,, so like the 0.0769 is actually, I think, 0.0768

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Series Cap Scavange
« Reply #39 on: September 01, 2016, 02:41:14 PM »
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Offline webby1

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Re: Series Cap Scavange
« Reply #40 on: September 01, 2016, 09:33:41 PM »
Interesting,,

The larger the load the lower the efficiency,,

Offline webby1

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Re: Series Cap Scavange
« Reply #41 on: September 01, 2016, 10:59:52 PM »
I changed the load out to

1642 ohms resistance

I tried other wall warts and different setups,, but this is about the average run,, I did this with the first wall wart after it sat unplugged for a little bit.
My Cen-Tech uses the average RMS for its readout,, which was used for the wall wart voltage and my Fluke, which on this scale shows a 0.05 reading with nothing, not locked, was used for the current.  I used Cent-tech meters (Harbor Freight specials :) ) for the others.

22mA AC 13.1V AC       0.2882
13.9mA DC  23.2V DC  0.32248

The input current was ranging from 21.56 to 22.03mA, mainly right around 21.85mA, all the others were steady


Offline webby1

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Re: Series Cap Scavange
« Reply #42 on: September 01, 2016, 11:50:06 PM »
I forgot to mention what I have done with the scavenge coil.

I separated the bifiler coil and reconnected them in series, then I took one leg and connected it to the input side of one of the pass through coils, and the other leg to the input side of the other pass through.

My Fluke meter always reads higher than my Cent-Tech meters,, so I thought it prudent to leave the Fluke on the input side of measuring things.

Offline webby1

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Re: Series Cap Scavange
« Reply #43 on: September 03, 2016, 03:39:21 PM »
old cold

.022A AC  13.1V AC  0.2882   input
.0139A DC  23.2V DC  0.32248  output

shorted scavenge

.01235A AC 13.3V AC  0.164255
.0104A DC  17.5V DC  0.182

feedback

.022A AC  13.1V AC  0.2882
.0139A DC  23.3V DC  0.32387

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy


Offline webby1

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Re: Series Cap Scavange
« Reply #44 on: September 06, 2016, 03:54:16 PM »
The numbers,,

Well I do not trust the numbers as they are,, I never do I only use them to see what the trend or tendency might be with what changes I make so the system showing a gain is not something I except as real,, but I look at what the changes in those numbers are when I make a change.

My assumption is that this system should run as a loss.

If I run the scavenge as a separate event then the system runs as a loss as shown by my meters,, if I remove the cap from the throughput coils the system runs as a loss,, with a cap and just the wall wart to said cap and FWBR there shows a gain,, change the cap change the gain,, the gain comes from an increase in voltage across the resistors,, it is the voltage that changes mostly with the use of capacitance.

Also when I use a cap on the scavenge coil,, well that depends on what I am doing with the scavenge coil as to whether it shows a gain or a loss,, it is all kind of interesting.

I even have tried to bias the core,, no change that I could see from many different ways of that,,,

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Series Cap Scavange
« Reply #44 on: September 06, 2016, 03:54:16 PM »

 

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