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Author Topic: Free Energy from Electromagnetic Wave Fields  (Read 13135 times)

Offline ZL

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Re: Free Energy from Electromagnetic Wave Fields
« Reply #45 on: February 23, 2017, 01:01:56 AM »
Respectively ZL, are you serious?  If a measurement is taken at the other end of the grounded input on the Tline, of course you will find a negative going pulse as compared to the applied pulse. But this is like looking at the outside of the rods on the wave machine at the starting pulse and then moving around to the back side of the table to look at the inside of the rods when the output pulse arrives!

Remember, you have suggested the option to measure the output at the bottom end of the T-line output, not me! If you are suggesting that this is a stupid idea, then why did you suggest it as an option in the first place? I have a feeling that now this is becoming an ego question, which is not nice. If you make a mistake and you are trying to hide it and cover it up with further obfuscations and false statements, instead of just simply acknowledging it, that will not make you look smarter. And it will not motivate me to show you things either, although I am trying to be patient...

You were trying to set up a simulation that would at least approximately behave as the wave machine, and for now you were able to view the signal at the input and at the output only. It does not matter which point you chose in your circuit to represent the output of the wave machine, as long as the signal that you measure there is analogous to the output signal of the wave machine.

Quote
We don't need to look "inside" the Tline to analyze the results we see at the ends.

We don’t. But we do need to look inside the T-line for you to see and understand that the circuit partzman1.png properly simulates the wave machine, and the same wave amplitude propagates inside the T-line that propagates inside the wave machine.   

Quote
The sims I've provided as well as the ones you have provided utilizing the lossless Tline model do not agree with the wave machine.

The partzman1.png version does agree with the wave machine! I have not prodded you to watch the video at the critical point frame by frame in vain, or because I am bored and have nothing better to do. If you would have opened your eyes, used simple clear thinking and a bit more humble approach, you could have seen that the amplitude at the output of the wave machine is also double of the signal amplitude that propagates inside the transmission line.

The reason for me prodding you to peek inside your T-line is again not in vain, but because this is the most convincing way to show you that the circuit accurately models the wave machine. You will see that the wave amplitude inside the T-line is the same as the original input pulse. This will also finally prove that Dr. J.N. Shive’s statement that "the reflected wave from an open ended transmission line is a reflected replica of it's original self" is indeed correct, just you did not set up your circuit properly, and you still don’t understand the results that it displays. 

Quote
There is NO evidence of wave superposition at the output of the un-loaded wave machine as compared to the un-loaded simulation.

There IS! Watch the video frame by frame when the right side of the impulse has just touched the end, and measure the amplitude. Then go on watching frame by frame until the amplitude becomes maximum at the output, and measure this max amplitude again. You will see that this second amplitude will be 2x the first. That can only happen if there is wave superposition at the very end of the line. Should I really spoon-feed every minute detail for you to understand?


Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Free Energy from Electromagnetic Wave Fields
« Reply #45 on: February 23, 2017, 01:01:56 AM »

Offline partzman

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Re: Free Energy from Electromagnetic Wave Fields
« Reply #46 on: February 23, 2017, 09:46:27 PM »

[snip]

There IS! Watch the video frame by frame when the right side of the impulse has just touched the end, and measure the amplitude. Then go on watching frame by frame until the amplitude becomes maximum at the output, and measure this max amplitude again. You will see that this second amplitude will be 2x the first. That can only happen if there is wave superposition at the very end of the line. Should I really spoon-feed every minute detail for you to understand?

ZL,

Let's just cut to the chase!

Please point out what is missing in the video clips in my post #37 in reference to your above comment.  "Has just touched the end" of what?  This obviously must be at the beginning but I honestly don't understand where this reference amplitude point is!?!

What I see in the clips I supplied previously is a peak amplitude of the rods created from input by the professor at the start of the wave input.  Then as the wave progresses down the line, I see the rods reach a peak amplitude at the output that to me appears to be reasonably equal to the peak at the start of the wave input.  Then I see the return wave reach the input with a slightly lower amplitude than the starting amplitude.  It doesn't get any more clear than that IMO.

So, in order for you to get your point across, perhaps you (or anyone else) would like to take the time to freeze frame the wave machine video to make your point graphically because I just don't get it!

pm 


Offline itsu

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Re: Free Energy from Electromagnetic Wave Fields
« Reply #47 on: February 23, 2017, 10:11:43 PM »
You guys are obviously not on the same wave length   ;D


PM, i think ZL means this, see the below pictures at 3.46 m into the video.

Regards Itsu

Offline ZL

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Re: Free Energy from Electromagnetic Wave Fields
« Reply #48 on: February 23, 2017, 10:31:20 PM »
You guys are obviously not on the same wave length   ;D

In this specific case we are not on the same amplitude instead  ;D

Quote
PM, i think ZL means this, see the below pictures at 3.46 m into the video.

Thanks itsu, I started thinking that maybe my English sucks, and that is why my explanations don't seem to help Partzan. It is not enough just to look; one also has to see what he is looking at.

The wave machine is not an ideal Tline. There are losses in it, which are quite significant and observable. The pulse amplitude near the end in the very first cycle is already significantly lower than the original input amplitude. If one wants to observe the momentary wave superposition at the output then the comparison must be done right next to one another, to avoid the falsifying influence of damping during the propagation.

How and where to observe this phenomenon has been meticulously explained in my last post, if one cares to read and understand. I can't get any clearer than that.


Offline ZL

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Re: Free Energy from Electromagnetic Wave Fields
« Reply #49 on: February 23, 2017, 11:01:31 PM »
Last call for action:

Is there anybody who can modify the LtSpice Tline circuit so that we can see into the transmission line and observe the shape and amplitude of the pulse that propagates in it? So far we can see that only at the input and output of the line, but we want to peek into it at an arbitrary position along its length.

If no solution comes forward, then I will post it later today or tomorrow, and we can discuss the case further and explain what is happening and why in more details.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Free Energy from Electromagnetic Wave Fields
« Reply #49 on: February 23, 2017, 11:01:31 PM »
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Offline partzman

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Re: Free Energy from Electromagnetic Wave Fields
« Reply #50 on: February 24, 2017, 01:56:16 AM »
@Itsu,

Thank you for going to the trouble of producing those freeze frames.  Because of it, I can see the superposition at the output waves.

@ZL,

As you can see, the case is closed.  Sorry to have wasted your time and I wish you the best in your efforts here.

pm

Offline ZL

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Re: Free Energy from Electromagnetic Wave Fields
« Reply #51 on: February 24, 2017, 01:40:48 PM »
Here is another nice example of why I am generally reluctant to post on this forum (except for brief announcements). Because of the disinfo agents and other over inflated egos here, whose primary aim is to show off their imaginary greatness, to appear as very important inventors and researchers (who already know things), and everything else is just secondary to them. When their ego gets hurt, then they turn into ingrates and enemies (overt or covert).

Partzman is thanking Itsu for going to the ‘exceedingly difficult and time consuming trouble’ to post the two frozen frames, which I have clearly described how to make (which is fine). In contrast, he is implicitly showing me his middle finger, because his ego has been hurt, and I have offered nothing useful. OK now reader honestly, in my place would you be motivated to teach and help such people? If you would, then you must be a masochist, which I am not.

At a second thought, it is quite possible (and probable) that the challenge of partzman under the guise of asking his question was not a honest intent to learn, but rather a sneaky attempt to discredit me. You know, along the line:

Quote
“Let’s ask ZL a tricky question upon which many beginners slip up, and which is very counter-intuitive. If he does not know the correct answer we will provide it, and then he will be discredited. People will think that he is clueless and they will ignore his FE principle, thus our (the disinfo agent’s) goal is accomplished. On the other hand, if he knows the correct answer, then Partzman will feign to be errr… (how to put it nicely) unbelievably incapable and unwilling to understand the explanations. Our player will also get indignant and put all blame for his mistakes on ZL, so that all these effects combined will hopefully piss ZL off. He will loose his patience, say something offensive, and appear to the uninitiated public as a bad character. Since nobody else would like to be treated like Partzman, people will distance themselves from ZL. We, the great disinfo agents (thanks to our psychologists) will win again. No matter what ZL does, we win! We are the supreme strategists, period.”

Why do I suspect such a foul play here, am I an incurable “conspiracy theorist”? And you know that this term “conspiracy theorist” has been perverted by the establishment propaganda to be synonymous with the label of “crackpot”, right? Because there is NO conspiracy whatsoever and you must believe that such thing does not exists, and those who claim otherwise should be treated as despicable… I suspect foul play on this thread, because the covert action became overt when despite my precise description, Partzman still feigned inability to see what happens to the amplitude at the end of the wave machine (which I can’t believe to be true). While miraculously within few minutes of him asking for snapshots, Itsu provides the requested images (before I get the chance to do the same), so that Partzman can have a seemingly triumphant exit thanking him for solving his problem, “closing the case” and expressing his veiled f-you to me.  ;D
Getting back to our subject, the case of analyzing an unloaded transmission line is far from being closed. We have just started. The case of Partzman’s participation may be closed, according to his intent to close the case. If nobody else is interested in the explanation of the rest of the subject, then I am happy to indeed close the case here on this thread, and focus instead on my own work.

But if there are people who want me to finish the related explanations, then let me know, and I will post the rest of the story. My posts were not meant to help Partzman only, but other good people as well, who are interested in the subject now, or in the future.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Free Energy from Electromagnetic Wave Fields
« Reply #51 on: February 24, 2017, 01:40:48 PM »
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Offline partzman

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Re: Free Energy from Electromagnetic Wave Fields
« Reply #52 on: February 24, 2017, 03:33:32 PM »
ZL,

I really don't know exactly how to respond to your last post but I must say something to defend myself because you have severely attacked my character.  You question my ability to "see" what was obvious to you and when I finally do understand and acknowledge the same plus apologize for wasting your time, you rip me to shreds.  I also apologize to Itsu for getting dragged into this by his sincere attempt to help me.

You said "I suspect foul play on this thread, because the covert action became overt when despite my precise description, Partzman still feigned inability to see what happens to the amplitude at the end of the wave machine (which I can’t believe to be true)."  This probably means nothing to you but I lost my brother last week and a good friend this week so my mind hasn't been operating as it should.  There is/was no conspiracy, intent to discredit or derail your efforts, or any other harm you insinuate.  You really owe me an apology!

My "case closed" comment had nothing to do with your ongoing explanation of anything you desire to discuss, but simply meant you no longer had to deal with my stupidity.  I humble myself and acknowledge that "I didn't get it" so what more do you want?

pm

Offline telecom

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Re: Free Energy from Electromagnetic Wave Fields
« Reply #53 on: February 24, 2017, 06:33:39 PM »
You guys are obviously not on the same wave length   ;D


PM, i think ZL means this, see the below pictures at 3.46 m into the video.

Regards Itsu

It would be actually interesting to see if the momentum of the wave doubles as well, together with the amplitude.
It may not contradict the 3rd law of Newton because the momentum of equal magnitude is still there,
but it may be just added to the original due to the reflection.
Regards

Offline ZL

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Re: Free Energy from Electromagnetic Wave Fields
« Reply #54 on: February 24, 2017, 11:49:56 PM »
It would be actually interesting to see if the momentum of the wave doubles as well, together with the amplitude.

Telecom, you are a mechanical engineer, right? It should not be very difficult for you then to calculate the momentum and the energy content of the wave pulse. Do you want to perform this calculation and share the results? It would be quite educational for everybody interested.

So far we were mainly discussing the simulation of EM wave pulse propagation in a transmission line. But similar simulation can be set up for mechanical waves as well. If you prefer to study the mechanical waves seen on the video, and would like to play with it (at least virtually) then here is a nice simulation that will let you do just that:

Wave Machine Model
http://www.opensourcephysics.org/items/detail.cfm?ID=10481
Download the "download 1694kb.jar" double click on it, and you are ready to start playing with waves and observe their motion in real time, just like the Prof. did in the video. The parameters can be changed as well, which will let you get a good feel of how waves behave under different conditions.

If on the other hand you (or others) want to play with an upgraded version of the T-line simulation in LtSpice, which lets you see the wave inside the transmission line, here is the diagram and the wave plots it can display: Split_Tline1.png see at the bottom.

It is very easy to solve the problem of measuring the wave inside the Tline with simple clear logic, something like this:
-Let’s assume that the Tline is a piece of coax cable, to make it easy to visualize.
-Let’s measure the voltage in the middle of the Tline; How to do it?
-In order measure it, we would have to cut it in the middle, otherwise we can not access the inner conductor.
-OK but then will the wave propagation not change? Not significantly if we solder them together nicely after leading a tap wire out which is soldered to the inner conductor, and then joining the two inner conductors together, and also the two outer ones without any gap.
-This way we model a single Tline with two Tline segments of identical characteristic impedance connected in series. This is what we see on the schematic. Both Tline segments are identical and have a Td=1.25us, which together will produce a time delay of 2.5us in this case.
-Now we have access to a measuring point that is in the middle of the cable, and we measure Vtr at that point, which is the blue trace on the graph.
-OK, but how can we measure the amplitude inside the Tline at an arbitrary point, let’s say at x*L distance along the length L of the line, where 0<x<1? That should be easy: use Td1=x*Td for the first Tline, and Td2=(1-x)*Td for the second Tline. Td is the total time delay of the complete line, which is in our example 2.5us (but you can change that to suit your needs).

If you play with the simulation a little bit and observe the waves, you will realize, that the amplitude inside the Tline is identical with the original impulse just as the Prof. stated, except that it gets doubled at the output for a brief moment where it is reflected, and the same happens at the input when it returns. This is a simple demonstration of local wave superposition. It is local in this case and temporary, because it happens only at within len/2 distance from the ends (where len is the length of the pulse). If you want to examine the gradual change of amplitude within this critical region, then chose Td1 and Td2 to place Vtr somewhere within this section.

How can we have a wave superposition or interference if there is only one single wave pulse? Don’t we need at least two waves to be added together? In this case the front side of the wave pulse turns back at the end to overlap with its own back side (tail). The two pulse segments propagating in opposite directions will get superimposed just the same way as if they were two independent waves. That is why we observe interference only at the very ends, and get double amplitude.

Now comes the key question:
Brilliant! We have produced wave superposition in direct phase and got a pulse of double amplitude. According to the FE principle from wave fields this supposed to contain excess energy… right? Well, think twice! Think hard, because this is a tricky and very counterintuitive property of waves! You can slip up here again very easily. If you think there is excess energy produced, then explain why, and how much. If you think there is no excess energy produced, then again you should be able to state the reason, and explain it. Remember, we are not interested in entertaining rosy illusions and chase fake FE devices, but in generating real excess energy. The first step towards that goal is to weed out false hopes and illusions.


Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Free Energy from Electromagnetic Wave Fields
« Reply #54 on: February 24, 2017, 11:49:56 PM »
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Offline telecom

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Re: Free Energy from Electromagnetic Wave Fields
« Reply #55 on: February 25, 2017, 08:51:32 PM »







How can we have a wave superposition or interference if there is only one single wave pulse? Don’t we need at least two waves to be added together? In this case the front side of the wave pulse turns back at the end to overlap with its own back side (tail). The two pulse segments propagating in opposite directions will get superimposed just the same way as if they were two independent waves. That is why we observe interference only at the very ends, and get double amplitude.

Now comes the key question:
Brilliant! We have produced wave superposition in direct phase and got a pulse of double amplitude. According to the FE principle from wave fields this supposed to contain excess energy… right? Well, think twice! Think hard, because this is a tricky and very counterintuitive property of waves! You can slip up here again very easily. If you think there is excess energy produced, then explain why, and how much. If you think there is no excess energy produced, then again you should be able to state the reason, and explain it. Remember, we are not interested in entertaining rosy illusions and chase fake FE devices, but in generating real excess energy. The first step towards that goal is to weed out false hopes and illusions.
I think you can get a superposition from one wave if its being reflected on itself,
this is how a standing wave forms.
Also,  the point of a double amplitude happens at a half wave length. I think
that we don't have a net energy gain, since the resulting wave is shorter, even though higher.

Offline ZL

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Re: Free Energy from Electromagnetic Wave Fields
« Reply #56 on: February 25, 2017, 10:15:07 PM »
I think you can get a superposition from one wave if its being reflected on itself, this is how a standing wave forms.

Sure, this has been already clarified.

Quote
I think that we don't have a net energy gain, since the resulting wave is shorter, even though higher.

OK, then let’s forget the superposition at the open end of the Tline for now. Instead let us examine a clear case of superposition of two separate pulses that propagate in opposite directions, and meet at the middle of the transmission line. In that case we can not say that the resultant superposed pulse’s length is shorter than that of the merging two pulses. All 3 pulses have the same length.

Please watch the video from 6:32-6:44. At 6:32 two identical waves are generated in the middle of the line and they move away from one another, then after reflection from the ends they converge, and meet in the middle forming a superposed pulse of double amplitude at 6:44. In this case there is no difference in pulse length. So what is you expectation now? Do we have a gain of excess energy in this case? Again, please also explain why?


Offline telecom

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Re: Free Energy from Electromagnetic Wave Fields
« Reply #57 on: February 26, 2017, 07:23:37 PM »
Sure, this has been already clarified.

OK, then let’s forget the superposition at the open end of the Tline for now. Instead let us examine a clear case of superposition of two separate pulses that propagate in opposite directions, and meet at the middle of the transmission line. In that case we can not say that the resultant superposed pulse’s length is shorter than that of the merging two pulses. All 3 pulses have the same length.

Please watch the video from 6:32-6:44. At 6:32 two identical waves are generated in the middle of the line and they move away from one another, then after reflection from the ends they converge, and meet in the middle forming a superposed pulse of double amplitude at 6:44. In this case there is no difference in pulse length. So what is you expectation now? Do we have a gain of excess energy in this case? Again, please also explain why?
I think we have a double energy wave in this case.
In our case,  wave consists of the masses located at the different heights along the length of the wave.
Since the length of the wave is the same, but the masses are 2 times higher,
the energy of the wave should be doubled as well.
According to the formula E=mgH.
Regards

Offline ZL

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Re: Free Energy from Electromagnetic Wave Fields
« Reply #58 on: February 26, 2017, 07:39:41 PM »
According to the formula E=mgH.

Alex, please take a good look at the wave machine, and notice how it was built (its structure), and explain how it operates. Your explanation indicates that you don’t understand how it works. Without the proper understanding of its working principle, you have no chance to get even close to understanding the wave energetics in it. When you get this working principle right, then we can come back to explain why you think there is double energy in the superposed pulse.

A hint that will give away the working principle: gravity has nothing to do with it. It would work the same (or nearly the same) in zero gravity in space as well.


Offline telecom

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Re: Free Energy from Electromagnetic Wave Fields
« Reply #59 on: February 27, 2017, 12:50:52 AM »
Alex, please take a good look at the wave machine, and notice how it was built (its structure), and explain how it operates. Your explanation indicates that you don’t understand how it works. Without the proper understanding of its working principle, you have no chance to get even close to understanding the wave energetics in it. When you get this working principle right, then we can come back to explain why you think there is double energy in the superposed pulse.

A hint that will give away the working principle: gravity has nothing to do with it. It would work the same (or nearly the same) in zero gravity in space as well.

Its interesting, I always thought it is similar to lifting weights.
I will take another look and update.
Regards

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Re: Free Energy from Electromagnetic Wave Fields
« Reply #59 on: February 27, 2017, 12:50:52 AM »

 

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