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Author Topic: Marko Rodin Coil -- 007 Device  (Read 22670 times)

Offline MileHigh

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Re: Marko Rodin Coil -- 007 Device
« Reply #45 on: June 17, 2016, 03:20:02 PM »
Loner
I would not bother with this question based around a voltage source that dose not exist.
MH is also not able to understand that an ideal voltage cannot be placed across a conductor that has 0 ohms of resistance,and current flowing against that that the ideal voltage wants to create.This is like placing an ideal voltage across an ideal capacitor.
At T=3 seconds--kaboom--bye bye equipment and components.

I wouldnt bother Russ and the crew over on Russ's forum with this rubbish question,it's a waste of time.

Brad

Your comments are idiotic considering that you tried to answer this question yourself.  Saying that an ideal voltage source does not exist is irrelevant and does not invalidate the question in any way.  You are regressing and going back in time, and making irrelevant comments like "an ideal voltage cannot be placed across a conductor that has 0 ohms of resistance" which has nothing to do with the question at all and on top of that you are trying to pretend that I don't understand something.

The question is not rubbish and it is definitely not a waste of time.  This is just sour grapes from you because you struggled and you were unable to answer the question yourself.  Hopefully there are some curious people out there on Russ' forum that will undertake to inform themselves when they realize how relevant the question is as it directly relates to the testing that Russ is going to do.  You are just trying to poison the well out of spite, shame on you.

MileHigh

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Re: Marko Rodin Coil -- 007 Device
« Reply #45 on: June 17, 2016, 03:20:02 PM »

Offline 3Kelvin

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Re: Marko Rodin Coil -- 007 Device
« Reply #46 on: June 17, 2016, 04:09:45 PM »
Hello together,
Is that a OU device?, 6 Meters and a Scope?
https://youtu.be/KJyb9tnlcaw

Enjoy it, it seems to be real.
World is in Resonance.
From Australia  to Tokio.

Love and Peace
3Kelvin


Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Marko Rodin Coil -- 007 Device
« Reply #47 on: June 17, 2016, 06:02:58 PM »
Hello together,
Is that a OU device?, 6 Meters and a Scope?
https://youtu.be/KJyb9tnlcaw

Enjoy it, it seems to be real.
World is in Resonance.
From Australia  to Tokio.

Love and Peace
3Kelvin

Nunez again, and again with "comments disabled" -- one of the main signs that the video uploader is FOS, since he can't answer criticisms or explain why, if his thing is so "OU", it can't run itself.
Garbage in, reactive garbage out, yet again. To answer your question... No, it's not an OU device. It's a resonant tank circuit, with circulating reactive power, and cannot sustain a real output that is greater than the input. The same thing can be shown using ordinary coils.

Offline tinman

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Re: Marko Rodin Coil -- 007 Device
« Reply #48 on: June 17, 2016, 06:12:26 PM »
 author=MileHigh link=topic=16650.msg486471#msg486471 date=1466169602]


Quote
and making irrelevant comments like "an ideal voltage cannot be placed across a conductor that has 0 ohms of resistance" which has nothing to do with the question at all and on top of that you are trying to pretend that I don't understand something.

The mistake you keep making,is looking only at the inductor,and not the ideal voltage source.
The fact that current can continue to flow through the ideal voltage source,when the voltage across the ideal sources terminals is 0,means there is no impedance to that current flow,and there for no resistance through the current path of the ideal voltage source. Regardless as to how the inductor reacts to a voltage placed across it,in no way determines or changes the current path through the ideal voltage source--which remains as a non resistive current path--these are things you should know.

Quote
Your comments are idiotic considering that you tried to answer this question yourself.

I gave you the generic answer,and by your comment after that,it was clear that you were not expecting me to do that--but i did.
But i still say it is incorrect,and it is now your job to prove me wrong--which you cant,as you do not have an ideal voltage source(nor dose one exist)that describes the one used in the answer given to your question.

Quote
Saying that an ideal voltage source does not exist is irrelevant and does not invalidate the question in any way.

A clear indication you are on a fools quest with your question,claiming to be able to validate an answer based around a non existent circuit. This would be no different to me saying i can validate what the magnetic force is,without having to provide any type of proof.

Quote
The question is not rubbish and it is definitely not a waste of time.  This is just sour grapes from you because you struggled and you were unable to answer the question yourself.

Based on the fact that your question is based around non existent voltage sources,then you are unable to qualify your answer--this is fact.

 
Quote
Hopefully there are some curious people out there on Russ' forum that will undertake to inform themselves when they realize how relevant the question is as it directly relates to the testing that Russ is going to do.  You are just trying to poison the well out of spite, shame on you.

Absolute rubbish,as there experimenting has nothing what so ever to do with ideal voltage sources and ideal coils of that size.

I hope you do not contaminate Russ's forum ,like you have contaminated this one.



Brad


Offline picowatt

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Re: Marko Rodin Coil -- 007 Device
« Reply #49 on: June 17, 2016, 07:24:40 PM »

At T=3 seconds--kaboom--bye bye equipment and components.


Perhaps this thought experiment will help...

An audio power amplifier is, within its drive capabilities, a very close approximation of an ideal voltage source.  A professional PA amplifier capable of driving several hundred watts or more into a 4R load with a damping factor of 400 will have an output impedance around .01R and will have many amps of current source or sink capability.  As would an ideal voltage source, the power amplifier will source or sink current even when its output is zero volts.

Connect an FG to such an amplifier's input and set the FG and amplifier so that the amplifier output is a 60VPP 1kHz sine wave.  Now, connect a 5mH inductor with a .1R DC resistance directly across the amplifier's output.

As the sine wave on the amplifier output reverses from its +30 volt peak towards its -30 volt peak, do you expect to see a huge current spike commensurate with the amplifier's .01R output impedance and the inductor's .1R DC resistance or do you expect to see current flow more so in line with the 31.4R reactance of the 5mH inductor at 1kHz?

If the FG is switched to produce a 1kHz square wave of 60VPP at the amplifier's output, do you expect a huge current spike as the square waveform at the amplifier output rapidly transitions from +30 to -30, or again, do you expect to see current flow more so in line with the inductor's 31.4R impedance at the 1kHz fundamental (the impedance/reactance will be greater for the harmonics added to the sine wave to produce the square wave). 

In both examples above, how will changing the DC resistance of the inductor affect the outcome?  Will a 5mH inductor with a .01R or .001R DC resistance significantly affect the observed current flow?

What if the 5mH inductor had zero ohms of DC resistance?  Would that have a significant effect on the amplifier's output current in the examples above?

How will lowering or raising the frequency of the applied waveform affect the results?

As stated, this is just a thought experiment, consider the questions rhetorical...

PW

(With regard to the above, please assume the amplifier to have zero volts of DC offset)

« Last Edit: June 18, 2016, 01:08:03 AM by picowatt »

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Marko Rodin Coil -- 007 Device
« Reply #49 on: June 17, 2016, 07:24:40 PM »
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Offline MileHigh

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Re: Marko Rodin Coil -- 007 Device
« Reply #50 on: June 17, 2016, 07:55:37 PM »
Brad:

That was a whack-job posting and I am going to respond.

Quote
The mistake you keep making,is looking only at the inductor,and not the ideal voltage source.
The fact that current can continue to flow through the ideal voltage source,when the voltage across the ideal sources terminals is 0,means there is no impedance to that current flow,and there for no resistance through the current path of the ideal voltage source. Regardless as to how the inductor reacts to a voltage placed across it,in no way determines or changes the current path through the ideal voltage source--which remains as a non resistive current path--these are things you should know.

I am not making any mistake, nor am I ignorant about what you are talking about.  You are just propagandizing and talking nonsense out of pure mean spiritedness.  You are making a whack-job straw man argument and trying to put words into my mouth.  It's like you are off your rocker.

Quote
But i still say it is incorrect,and it is now your job to prove me wrong--which you cant,as you do not have an ideal voltage source(nor dose one exist)that describes the one used in the answer given to your question.

After all this time you are still playing the "problem student" that has difficulty in understanding things.  I do not literally have to have an ideal voltage source, you are talking like a child that still believes in the Tooth Fairy.  You are just going to have to cope with the concept of an ideal voltage source which is a universal concept, tough luck for you.  I told you repeatedly that a power audio amplifier could give you what is tantamount to an ideal voltage source within certain limits, and lo and behold now Picowatt is telling you exactly the same thing.  I have no idea what I am supposed to "prove wrong."

Quote
A clear indication you are on a fools quest with your question,claiming to be able to validate an answer based around a non existent circuit.

And there is no such thing as Santa Claus but he still exists.

Quote
Based on the fact that your question is based around non existent voltage sources,then you are unable to qualify your answer--this is fact.

Who got you that shiny new set of spark plugs and the four liters of oil last Christmas, the Great Pumpkin?

Quote
Absolute rubbish,as there experimenting has nothing what so ever to do with ideal voltage sources and ideal coils of that size.

It has everything to do with Russ' testing of a Rodin coil, you have been hanging around with the Garbage Pail Kids too much and eating too many Queasy Bake cookies and you are on a bad trip.

Quote
I hope you do not contaminate Russ's forum ,like you have contaminated this one.

You know what they said at Woodstock, "Watch out for the brown acid in the Queasy Bake cookies."

MileHigh

Offline MileHigh

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Re: Marko Rodin Coil -- 007 Device
« Reply #51 on: June 17, 2016, 08:20:59 PM »
Loner:

Yes, 2.39 amps at three seconds sounds much better.

Quote
Now, HOW would you do the above WITHOUT resistance?
How would you calc the time constant?
I would REALLY appreciate an answer, if there is one that can be shown using math....

That is indeed the big question.  You note that all that you are doing to arrive at 2.39 amps is punching some numbers into a formula.  The challenge is to make the leap from just punching numbers into a formula to understanding how the inductor actually works.

Here is a hint:  If the time constant is 500 seconds, and you calculated the current value at three seconds, perhaps you might suspect that the difference between the coil with zero resistance and the coil with 0.01 ohms resistance would be very small at three seconds?  In other words, you might suspect that the current would be quite similar.

Just think about how a coil really works.  And no, there is no sim program that I was using.

Quote
Just an equation.  Without a source resistance or Inductive resistance or at least a wire resistance I can't see it without DEEP math.

Do you know what an integral is?   That's another hint.  You could even solve it using a derivative.  That's another hint.

Please think about it and do some surfing.  If you are stumped in a few days I will gladly answer.

MileHigh

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Marko Rodin Coil -- 007 Device
« Reply #51 on: June 17, 2016, 08:20:59 PM »
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Offline 3Kelvin

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Re: Marko Rodin Coil -- 007 Device
« Reply #52 on: June 17, 2016, 09:11:54 PM »
Loner, you was faster.

I agree, the key to the MH Question is the Tau.

Tau = L/R => 5 Tau is something like 99,5% Current of steady State DC.
If R going to 0, then Tau will go(ing) to infinity.
If Tau is infinity so no current will move to the coil.

Back EMF
VL(t)= -L di/dt

My Problem is, the infinitive sharp Edge from the input Signal.
From 0 to 4 Volt in 0 Time. For that assumption we will also get infinity.
So the Back EMF will be also infinity.

Tau seems to be the best approach for the problem.

So far my assumptions in a set of boundaries.

Bo be continued
Please fell free to correct my if i wrong with the set of assumptions and boundaries.

My motivation is to learn, not to fight with people.

Love and Peace
3K

PS. TK, i like your YT Channel and i understand the meaning of "Texas has Resonance"

Offline MileHigh

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Re: Marko Rodin Coil -- 007 Device
« Reply #53 on: June 17, 2016, 09:26:36 PM »
If R going to 0, then Tau will go(ing) to infinity.
If Tau is infinity so no current will move to the coil.

Yes, I have heard that many times before.

But now think about this:

If I have a coil with a low resistance and I put voltage across the coil then current flows through it.

So why should current stop flowing through the coil if the resistance changes from a low resistance to a zero resistance?

We all know that if you reduce the resistance in a circuit, it lets the current flow more easily.

Offline MileHigh

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Re: Marko Rodin Coil -- 007 Device
« Reply #54 on: June 17, 2016, 09:35:09 PM »
Back EMF
VL(t)= -L di/dt

My Problem is, the infinitive sharp Edge from the input Signal.
From 0 to 4 Volt in 0 Time. For that assumption we will also get infinity.
So the Back EMF will be also infinity.

Are you sure about that?

Back-EMF is a term we use to represent the output voltage from a coil.

In my question, who is in control of the voltage across the coil?  Is it the ideal voltage source, or is it the coil?

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Marko Rodin Coil -- 007 Device
« Reply #54 on: June 17, 2016, 09:35:09 PM »
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Offline MileHigh

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Re: Marko Rodin Coil -- 007 Device
« Reply #55 on: June 17, 2016, 10:14:02 PM »
Back EMF
VL(t)= -L di/dt

My Problem is, the infinitive sharp Edge from the input Signal.
From 0 to 4 Volt in 0 Time. For that assumption we will also get infinity.
So the Back EMF will be also infinity.

Is this related to di/dt or dv/dt?

Offline 3Kelvin

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Re: Marko Rodin Coil -- 007 Device
« Reply #56 on: June 17, 2016, 10:57:47 PM »
On my timezone it is late now.
My wife hates me for the mess with papers in the office.

She ask me:
Hey 3K, did you carry the garbage from the kitchen to the container into the back yard?
No, ma'am i do some math to eliminate infinity.
I try to understand the beauty of Physics.

Whaaat? I think you need a shrink at 0 time
,
says my wife.  :o

So far, see and read at next sunrise. ;)

Peace and Love
3K


Offline tinman

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Re: Marko Rodin Coil -- 007 Device
« Reply #57 on: June 18, 2016, 05:47:35 AM »
Perhaps this thought experiment will help...

An audio power amplifier is, within its drive capabilities, a very close approximation of an ideal voltage source.  A professional PA amplifier capable of driving several hundred watts or more into a 4R load with a damping factor of 400 will have an output impedance around .01R and will have many amps of current source or sink capability.  As would an ideal voltage source, the power amplifier will source or sink current even when its output is zero volts.

Connect an FG to such an amplifier's input and set the FG and amplifier so that the amplifier output is a 60VPP 1kHz sine wave.  Now, connect a 5mH inductor with a .1R DC resistance directly across the amplifier's output.

As the sine wave on the amplifier output reverses from its +30 volt peak towards its -30 volt peak, do you expect to see a huge current spike commensurate with the amplifier's .01R output impedance and the inductor's .1R DC resistance or do you expect to see current flow more so in line with the 31.4R reactance of the 5mH inductor at 1kHz?

If the FG is switched to produce a 1kHz square wave of 60VPP at the amplifier's output, do you expect a huge current spike as the square waveform at the amplifier output rapidly transitions from +30 to -30, or again, do you expect to see current flow more so in line with the inductor's 31.4R impedance at the 1kHz fundamental (the impedance/reactance will be greater for the harmonics added to the sine wave to produce the square wave). 

In both examples above, how will changing the DC resistance of the inductor affect the outcome?  Will a 5mH inductor with a .01R or .001R DC resistance significantly affect the observed current flow?

What if the 5mH inductor had zero ohms of DC resistance?  Would that have a significant effect on the amplifier's output current in the examples above?

How will lowering or raising the frequency of the applied waveform affect the results?

As stated, this is just a thought experiment, consider the questions rhetorical...

PW

(With regard to the above, please assume the amplifier to have zero volts of DC offset)

But that is nothing like the test conditions stated in MH question.
There is no sine wave,as the voltages applied to the circuit(being the coil and ideal voltage source)are of a square wave pattern.The transition is not starting from a low point and ramping up to a high point,the transition is instant,and there is no resistance to sink the existing current flowing through the circuit.

Here is what you have explained.
We have a small ideal 12 v DC PM motor with a flywheel on it(ideal meaning it has no resistance in the windings). We apply a rising voltage that starts at 0 volts,and reaches a peak value of say 6 volts over 6 seconds,and then decrease that voltage back down to 0 volts over the next 6 seconds--so as the voltage wave form is a sine over 12 seconds. The motor/flywheel combo will ramp up for the first 6 seconds,and then ramp down over the last 6 seconds. During the last 6 seconds,the flywheel will return-or sink its stored energy back into the voltage supply(we are assuming the motor/flywheel combo is near frictionless).
But now we change the voltage wave form to a square wave-as in MH question.
We also have an ideal voltage source which has no internal resistance.
We apply an instant 6 volts across the motor,and the motor ramps up to a set RPM. We now reduce that voltage to a value of 0,and the current will continue to flow through the motor and ideal source due to the stored energy in the flywheel,and no resistive losses.
We then apply an instant voltage of 6 volt to the motor that is opposite in polarity to the previous 6 volts that has caused the rotational direction of the motor--what happens to the current value at the terminals when this negative 6 volts is applied instantly,when there is no place to sink the existing current already flowing through the system?.

The inductor is just like the motor/flywheel combo,in that both are energy storage devices,and in both cases,the applied negative voltage is in opposition to that stored energy,and in both cases,the circuit has no current sink for this stored energy to be dissipated into-as all are ideal.
As you stated in your example,the amplifier can be a current sink or source,as it has resistance,and that being the reason it gets hot. In MHs example,all is ideal,and has no resistance,and there for cannot sink or dissipate energy. The stored energy in the inductor is not just !gone! as MH put it,when the voltage polarity is reversed across the circuit-that still has stored energy from the previous applied voltage.That stored energy has to be dissipated,but there is no where for this stored energy to be dissipated,as there is no resistance in the circuit.


Brad

Offline picowatt

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Re: Marko Rodin Coil -- 007 Device
« Reply #58 on: June 18, 2016, 08:09:06 AM »
Tinman,

In my thought experiment I also discussed using a square wave.  Do you believe the amplifier will have a problem driving the 1kHz square wave across the 5mH inductor as discussed?  Do you believe the squarewave's transition from +30 volts to -30 volts will create a large current spike somehow related to the amplifier's output impedance and the inductor's DC resistance?

Or, do you believe the amount of current that flows will be more so determined by the frequency content of that edge transition and the reactance/impedance of the 5mH inductor at those frequencies?

PW


Offline tinman

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Re: Marko Rodin Coil -- 007 Device
« Reply #59 on: June 18, 2016, 11:17:39 AM »


PW


Quote
In my thought experiment I also discussed using a square wave.

Quote:

Quote
As the sine wave on the amplifier output reverses from its +30 volt peak towards its -30 volt peak, do you expect to see a huge current spike commensurate with the amplifier's .01R output impedance and the inductor's

 ???

 
Quote
Do you believe the amplifier will have a problem driving the 1kHz square wave across the 5mH inductor as discussed?  Do you believe the squarewave's transition from +30 volts to -30 volts will create a large current spike somehow related to the amplifier's output impedance and the inductor's DC resistance?

No and N0,as both are not ideal.
Having resistance enables power to be dissipated as heat,and having no resistance(ideal),means that power cannot be dissipated.

Here is what you are not looking at,and i have stated this a number of times now--but it keeps getting over looked--the current that is flowing through the ideal voltage source.
Switch things around,and think about this. We have an ideal voltage source(lets say an ideal cap)that has 6 volts across it. We now place an ideal current source across that ideal capacitor,but so as the current is opposite that which will flow from the cap when a load is place across it-->what happens?.


Brad

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Marko Rodin Coil -- 007 Device
« Reply #59 on: June 18, 2016, 11:17:39 AM »

 

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