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Author Topic: Marko Rodin Coil -- 007 Device  (Read 23339 times)

Offline Dog-One

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Re: Marko Rodin Coil -- 007 Device
« Reply #30 on: June 15, 2016, 01:36:05 AM »
I think you are probably correct Brad.  Indications are that all wires are connected in the same direction.  No cancellation.

Back to square one...


Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Marko Rodin Coil -- 007 Device
« Reply #30 on: June 15, 2016, 01:36:05 AM »

Offline tinman

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Re: Marko Rodin Coil -- 007 Device
« Reply #31 on: June 15, 2016, 01:43:32 AM »
I think you are probably correct Brad.  Indications are that all wires are connected in the same direction.  No cancellation.

Back to square one...

I will be catching up with Russ on skype soon,so i will get the answer,and post here when i have it.

Anyone have any idea as to how accurate those analog meters will be in those conditions?


Brad


Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Marko Rodin Coil -- 007 Device
« Reply #32 on: June 15, 2016, 02:10:25 PM »
I've read through the thread on Russ's site but I can't see diagrams, etc. there, so I still have no idea just what schematic is being tested, or how. But what I DID see in that thread is that the Power Analysis software that Russ's scope has in it is giving him results that are different from what he gets by just multiplying everything together willy-nilly.

I also noted that the Current Probe he has bought has its own phase shift that needs to be accounted for, and the Data Sheet for the probe only lists the phase shift from DC to 65 Hz, whereas the useful range of the probe is 100 kHz. Why doesn't the data sheet give full information about the phase shift/response latency of the probe?
 
http://www.testequipmentdepot.com/AEMC/pdf/sl261.pdf

As I've recommended before, anyone using active current or voltage probes needs to understand that they will inevitably have some delay (phase shift) of their own and so must be calibrated in whatever setup is being used in order to give accurate results. Most Tek high-end scopes have a "De-skew" function that allows this calibration to be inserted into the scope's readings. Even my bottom-end Rigol has a delay feature that allows this correction to be inserted and corrected for in a channel's readings. At the very least, for active current probes, one should do a simultaneous reading with the active current probe, and a normal passive voltage probe looking across an inline non-inductive current-viewing resistor, to see how much the active probe shifts phase compared to the passive voltage probe.

My impression from reading the thread is that not many people there actually know what's going on. It's good to see Matt Watts posting there. The fact that Russ was using AC-coupling initially is not a very good sign.... it indicates that he has his hands more than full with respect to making power measurements on the scope.
Hopefully he will take advice, learn to use his equipment properly, and especially, learn to use the Power Analysis software addon in his scope.

I can probably still borrow a proper wideband power analyzer, and I'd be more than happy to perform some tests, if I had the properly wound Coils to work with.

I don't see anything in what Russ or others have posted that indicate that they are doing or even considering doing the proper control experiments, that is, comparing the performance of the Rodin coil with an ordinary air-core solenoidal coil of matching inductance, resistance etc.

The videos are just too long. If someone who has watched them can point out some timestamps where something significant is shown, I'd be grateful.

Meanwhile, I'll still bet a cheezburger that the real issue here is simply one of reactive power being mistaken for real power.

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Marko Rodin Coil -- 007 Device
« Reply #33 on: June 15, 2016, 02:17:02 PM »
I will be catching up with Russ on skype soon,so i will get the answer,and post here when i have it.

Anyone have any idea as to how accurate those analog meters will be in those conditions?


Brad

The meters may give a good "average" of voltage and current. They will _not_ tell you the phase difference between voltage and current, which is the critical point. They will also introduce errors and phase shifts of their own. There simply isn't enough detail in what I've seen to be able to tell for sure just how useful the analog meters can be. The setup needs to be calibrated in various ways.
 
Again, my MicroQEG playlist covers a lot of the possible effects and possible measurement errors in this type of reactive power situation. (And the whole list is not that long to watch....) I wonder if Russ has watched it.

Maybe the MicroQEG circuit is even appropriate to drive the Rodin coil, instead of the expensive audio amplifier+signal generator setup, since it is auto-resonating and will automagically drive the coil at the resonant frequency set by the coil and the parallel capacitors used to form the output tank circuit.

A proper power analyzer, or maybe Russ's scope's Power Analyzer software, needs to be understood and correctly applied to this problem.


Offline tinman

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Re: Marko Rodin Coil -- 007 Device
« Reply #34 on: June 15, 2016, 03:10:18 PM »
They will also introduce errors and phase shifts of their own. There simply isn't enough detail in what I've seen to be able to tell for sure just how useful the analog meters can be. The setup needs to be calibrated in various ways.
 
Again, my MicroQEG playlist covers a lot of the possible effects and possible measurement errors in this type of reactive power situation. (And the whole list is not that long to watch....) I wonder if Russ has watched it.

Maybe the MicroQEG circuit is even appropriate to drive the Rodin coil, instead of the expensive audio amplifier+signal generator setup, since it is auto-resonating and will automagically drive the coil at the resonant frequency set by the coil and the parallel capacitors used to form the output tank circuit.


Quote
The meters may give a good "average" of voltage and current. They will _not_ tell you the phase difference between voltage and current, which is the critical point.

Yes,this is true.
But in saying that,if they were out(phase angles)to much,then the output would have also been low,and it would seem,looking at the load,that there is a good amount of power being delivered to the load. Once again,i know the brightness of lights is in no way any sort of power measurement,but it is there--how much?,who knows ATM.


Quote
A proper power analyzer, or maybe Russ's scope's Power Analyzer software, needs to be understood and correctly applied to this problem.

Indeed.
I see in his first video,he was using AC coupling on the scope. Maybe the results would be different if he used DC coupling?.

Brad

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Marko Rodin Coil -- 007 Device
« Reply #34 on: June 15, 2016, 03:10:18 PM »
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Offline picowatt

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Re: Marko Rodin Coil -- 007 Device
« Reply #35 on: June 15, 2016, 04:50:47 PM »

I also noted that the Current Probe he has bought has its own phase shift that needs to be accounted for, and the Data Sheet for the probe only lists the phase shift from DC to 65 Hz, whereas the useful range of the probe is 100 kHz. Why doesn't the data sheet give full information about the phase shift/response latency of the probe?

TK,

See page 10 of the pdf linked below...

http://www.chauvin-arnoux.us/pdfs_aemc/user-manuals/SL261_EN.pdf

It sure would be nice if Russ would put up a schematic of the circuit he is using including the points at which he is making his measurements.  Like you, I attempted to weed through the videos and postings but was unable to find a proper schematic.  If there is one, perhaps someone could post it or a link here.

Without a proper schematic including the drive and measurement points, it is difficult to ascertain much from the measurements presented.

I also noted there seemed to be a lot of concern with regard to the coil's DC resistance not being lower than the capability of the driving amp (i.e., 4R).  Unless they are operating all the way down to DC (which does not seem to be the case), they need only be concerned with the coil's impedance at the test frequency(s) being used.

PW

Offline 3Kelvin

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Re: Marko Rodin Coil -- 007 Device
« Reply #36 on: June 16, 2016, 01:40:02 AM »
Hello together,

update Video from Russ and his work on the Rodin (007 Style) Coil. Duration 5h38min.
https://youtu.be/tl0qopTBQA0

I like Russ and his work.

For Information:
PDF File from the 007 OU? Experiment.
http://rwgresearch.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/Rodin-007.pdf
Keywords: Voltage Step up, Phase shift, Gain, Reactive Power, measurement error?

Rodin Coil Labs Over Unity Energy Amplifier, 640P, May 28th 2016
https://youtu.be/ESjC5G_glx4
Keywords: Share all Information, Teaching, DC to DC Introducer

Videos from Global BEM 2016 -007 Live presentation- Playlist
007 starts with video 6 of 14.
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLr6U3JfQRaDR5CKu5PfkRZ0v6amPoXjtI

Some more Information about ABHA / Rodin Coils and the eventually special Properties.

Solenoid Coil versus POE Vortex Coil => Wireless Potential ?
https://youtu.be/DaT_IpigOtY

Rodin Coil Inductance Vs. Standard Coil Inductance => Negative Inductance ?
https://youtu.be/OWa0tluDiqg

To be continued

Love and Peace
3K

PS:
Sry for my bad English,
try to become better

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Marko Rodin Coil -- 007 Device
« Reply #36 on: June 16, 2016, 01:40:02 AM »
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Offline MileHigh

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Re: Marko Rodin Coil -- 007 Device
« Reply #37 on: June 16, 2016, 03:33:07 AM »
Well, unfortunately it seems "the industry" is still batting 1000 when it comes to obfuscation.

There is no schematic or test points shown in the PDF file from the 007 "OU" experiment.

In addition, when trying RodinCoilLabs.com you get this:

Quote
The server at markorodinlabs.com is taking too long to respond.

So what, you have a document that is dated May 22, 2016 and less than a month later the URL associated with the presentation times out?  Did Marko not renew or pay his bills "just in time?"  Or are the PTB boys at the top of their game?

From the file:

Quote:  "The Rodin Coil Over Unity Energy Amplifier boosts the voltage by twenty times, which is extremely large."

This is not confidence inspiring at all because you can dial up any voltage boost level you want with a coil.  You can draw your own inferences about the tester.

It also says, "On the input side, a small 2168 frequency is multiplied up to 20 times."

Not really sure what that means.

They talk about putting the output through a FWBR and having a smoothing capacitor but then they show AC input and output voltage and current waveforms.

They use modern filament-style LED light bulbs as the load which still have some electronic guts to make them friendly for 50/60 Hz 120/240 VAC.  That just needlessly complicates matters when you have your own custom voltage waveform driving the bulbs.  They talk about a "tuning" frequency of 641 Hz for the mysterious "circuit."

When you look at the load waveforms, the voltage and current wavforms are nearly 90 degrees out of phase indicating a very low power factor and a reactive load.  But if the load is LED filament light bulbs my instincts are telling me there is almost no chance that the electronic guts inside each light bulb are going to look like a reactive load.

I did not read every word of the report.  But I saw enough to convince me that the report is next to useless.  No schematic and no test points is the first downfall.  Using LED filament lamps with electronic circuits inside them that are designed to convert mains power AC to DC and feeding them a non-standard voltage waveform is not the way to go.  Just like you have a "BFG" in video gaming you need a "BDR," a big dumb resistor for making load measurements.

The report is a fail.

MileHigh

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Marko Rodin Coil -- 007 Device
« Reply #38 on: June 16, 2016, 07:49:15 PM »
Not completely a "fail" but rather very telling. Yes, a fail to demonstrate OU, but clear evidence of something else.

Consider the images below. The phase shift between "load voltage" and "load current" is almost exactly 90 degrees.
Yet the calculation of "gain" that follows simply multiplies the RMS values from the scope and does not even consider this phase angle. This is the same kind of error that I have demonstrated with my MicroQEG, which these people would evidently also measure to be _massively_ OU by this technique!

Further along the statement is made that the scope cannot handle the voltages involved, which are then shown on a multimeter to be somewhat over 300 volts. So there are no "load" scopeshots shown for those later "experiments". More BS, indicating that the "experimenters" do not understand how to use their scope and probe setups. 

Even further, they show a current loop reading of something over 1000 Amps... but fail to consider that the entire Rodin coil is looped through the current loop, hence multiplying the true sensed current by the _number of turns_ (11 or 12) of the coil that goes through the loop! It is very easy to get 90 Amps of reactive current circulating in a tank circuit coil --- again, just as I have demonstrated with the MicroQEG and my wireless power transfer systems. But to claim over a kiloAmp is simply ridiculous and once again shows that they don't know what they are doing -- or are deliberately presenting readings that they know are BS and making false conclusions from them.




Offline MileHigh

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Re: Marko Rodin Coil -- 007 Device
« Reply #39 on: June 16, 2016, 08:14:17 PM »
TK:

I have a feeling that the report is "Marko Rodin endorsed" but don't expect me to find the smoking gun for that somewhere on Russ' forum or elsewhere.  It just goes to show you.  The phase shift business is yet another Spinal Tap moment in the "industry."

Russ mentioned OU.com so it safe to say that many Rodin coil enthusiasts from his forum are monitoring this thread.

The bottom line:  Russ has to have a schematic, test points, and a test procedure.  The exact electrical configuration of the Rodin coil itself must also be documented.  He also needs to have a conventional coil to test as a control, something that both of us have mentioned.

Then he needs to run the tests and report his results.  The other theories and speculations about the operation of the coil can come later.

MileHigh

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Marko Rodin Coil -- 007 Device
« Reply #39 on: June 16, 2016, 08:14:17 PM »
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Offline MileHigh

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Re: Marko Rodin Coil -- 007 Device
« Reply #40 on: June 16, 2016, 08:37:32 PM »
Here is a little quiz for the Rodin coil enthusiasts on Russ' forum.  It's a basic electronics question about coils:

You have an ideal voltage source and an ideal coil of 5 Henrys.  At time t=0 seconds the coil connects to the ideal voltage source. For three seconds the voltage is 4 volts.  Then for the next two seconds the voltage is zero volts. Then for the next two seconds the voltage is negative three volts, and then for the next six seconds the voltage is 0.5 volts.  Then after that the voltage is zero volts.

Question:  What happens starting from t=0 seconds when the ideal voltage is connected to the ideal coil?

If you can't answer that question then you need to educate yourselves about basic electronics including coils and capacitors.  That is the "reality check" for you.  Before you can start making all sorts of theories about coils you have to understand how they work first.  Russ is going to be on vacation for a week so you have some time to think about the question and how to answer it.

Offline tak22

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Re: Marko Rodin Coil -- 007 Device
« Reply #41 on: June 17, 2016, 08:58:25 AM »
Loner, don't beat yourself up or feel sorry, you've been pranked.


Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Marko Rodin Coil -- 007 Device
« Reply #42 on: June 17, 2016, 09:08:24 AM »
Hello together,

update Video from Russ and his work on the Rodin (007 Style) Coil. Duration 5h38min.
https://youtu.be/tl0qopTBQA0

YGTBKM. Who is actually going to watch a 5 hour 38 minute video? Where are the "highlights" that cut to the chase?

Quote
I like Russ and his work.


So do I. It's too bad that he doesn't really understand how to use his expensive test equipment properly. Maybe he'll learn from this experience. The Power Analysis software add-on for his scope, just by itself, costs more than I spend on food in six months. Some versions of the Power Analysis software bundle cost more than a good used car. There is a reason why this stuff is so expensive: When used properly, it gives reliable and correct results.

Quote
For Information:
PDF File from the 007 OU? Experiment.
http://rwgresearch.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/Rodin-007.pdf
Keywords: Voltage Step up, Phase shift, Gain, Reactive Power, measurement error?

You got the keywords right, as I have indicated in posts above. There isn't much more to be said about this pdf document other than what I and others have said above. It deliberately compares a reactive power "load" measurement with a real power input measurement and claims an OU gain result. The first video in my MicroQEG playlist does the same thing, with much greater "OU gain" result.

Quote

Rodin Coil Labs Over Unity Energy Amplifier, 640P, May 28th 2016
https://youtu.be/ESjC5G_glx4
Keywords: Share all Information, Teaching, DC to DC Introducer

That's an incredible video! A bunch of total gobbledegook from the narrator including a bunch of absurdly false claims, incredibly poor video quality _except_ for the silly animations, and a scopeshot that shows nearly 100 percent REACTIVE load power being measured. See the image below which I have captured from this video, showing the voltage and current measured as "output" and which is again used to bolster their claims of "overunity".

Not even _MY_ videos are that bad!

As long as people keep posting links to that kind of garbage claiming "share all information, teaching"... I'll keep posting links to my own MicroQEG videos:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MCdrAE_IZ74

http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLml9VdOeqKa-k7J7vO_I22fVc-h8wcdLf

Go ahead, refute me, while still supporting the Rodin Coil claims! You can't do it. 

Quote
Videos from Global BEM 2016 -007 Live presentation- Playlist
007 starts with video 6 of 14.
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLr6U3JfQRaDR5CKu5PfkRZ0v6amPoXjtI

More amazingly bad garbage videos that demonstrate nothing but more ignorance and (possible) wilful deception. Garbage in, garbage out, and all those presenters are still buying electricity from their local grids to run their homes and labs. Not a single spaceship powered by a Rodin coil anywhere!

Quote

Some more Information about ABHA / Rodin Coils and the eventually special Properties.

Solenoid Coil versus POE Vortex Coil => Wireless Potential ?
https://youtu.be/DaT_IpigOtY

Rodin Coil Inductance Vs. Standard Coil Inductance => Negative Inductance ?
https://youtu.be/OWa0tluDiqg


More in the YGTBKM department. Two great illustrations of garbage in, garbage out. These videos show how _not_ to make measurements of inductors. They are, in fact, utterly laughable demonstrations of incompetence and the Dunning-Kruger effect.

Quote

To be continued

Love and Peace
3K

PS:
Sry for my bad English,
try to become better

Your English is fine. Your critical thinking ability needs work, though.

Keep practising, and when you find a reasonably short video that shows, for example, a selfrunning or daisy-chained Rodin coil system powering a real load, someone making measurements with a broadband power analyzer or an expensive scope with a multi-thousand dollar power analysis addon package... be sure to let us know.


Screengrab from the Rodin video showing approx. 90-degree phase shift between voltage and current-- the only valid measurement from that video:


Offline MileHigh

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Re: Marko Rodin Coil -- 007 Device
« Reply #43 on: June 17, 2016, 10:19:46 AM »
MH, Isn't that pushing a little bit.  I, personally, would call that almost a "Trick" question.  I'll give my reasoning, and you let me know (or maybe let others let me know what I am missing...)

You made the simple statement "Ideal" for BOTH the voltage source and the Inductor.  To me, and to all that I have worked with, that would indicate exact voltage with no current limit for the voltage source and NO resistance (R=0) for the inductor.  Zero can be hard to work with, for me.

To actually use these values, wouldn't you need to drop back to basic calculus? 

To get a simple idea, however, you can plug in .01 Ohm to the general equations and at the 3 second mark we are near 30A of "Real" current through a 5 Henry inductor.  It looks nicer by making a little Excel spreadsheet and plotting the current vs time, but now I'm edging away from the question.

For actual values (Read exact theory proposed values.), I don't see a simple way to calc anything exactly.  Am I missing something?  Or am I taking this too literally?

No, it's not a trick question and it's not a prank.  You could add a 0.01 ohm resistor in series with the ideal coil to model it as a real coil if you wanted to, but it just makes things more complicated.  At the three second mark the current would not even be close to 30 amperes.

The point of the question for the Rodin coil or regular coil enthusiasts on Russ' forum is to take stock.  If they don't know how to answer this basic question, and perhaps they don't even know where to go to start answering this question, then that means they need to learn the basic nuts and bolts about coils.  There are many people on the thread offering up all sorts of theories and are proposing test methods or discussing applications for a Rodin coil where I bet you they would not know how to tackle this very basic question.

Think about it:  Russ is going to be applying a varying voltage to his Rodin coil and this question is about applying a varying voltage to a coil and chances are very few people on Russ' thread can answer the question.  While Russ is on a much-deserved vacation, interested people could be embarking on a learning curve to understand coils so that they can indeed answer the question.  That's the main point:  To get people to realize that they can't answer it, and hopefully that will inspire some of them to embark on a journey to teach themselves and their peers.

MileHigh


Offline tinman

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Re: Marko Rodin Coil -- 007 Device
« Reply #44 on: June 17, 2016, 01:11:58 PM »
MH, Isn't that pushing a little bit.  I, personally, would call that almost a "Trick" question.  I'll give my reasoning, and you let me know (or maybe let others let me know what I am missing...)

You made the simple statement "Ideal" for BOTH the voltage source and the Inductor.  To me, and to all that I have worked with, that would indicate exact voltage with no current limit for the voltage source and NO resistance (R=0) for the inductor.  Zero can be hard to work with, for me.

To actually use these values, wouldn't you need to drop back to basic calculus? 

To get a simple idea, however, you can plug in .01 Ohm to the general equations and at the 3 second mark we are near 30A of "Real" current through a 5 Henry inductor.  It looks nicer by making a little Excel spreadsheet and plotting the current vs time, but now I'm edging away from the question.

For actual values (Read exact theory proposed values.), I don't see a simple way to calc anything exactly.  Am I missing something?  Or am I taking this too literally?

I find it hard to imagine anyone working with ANY coil would not have the basic understanding of exponential current rise...  How could you even test without that?
Are not Q, bandwidth and parasitic values not common info available all over the net for anyone to look up?

OR, is this a raw demonstration of how naive I am when it comes to my expectations of basic knowledge?


OK, I'm starting to feel very stupid and foolish.  I should delete this but others need to see how useless I have become in the real world of fake experimental results.  Wow.....
I think I will hide for a while and try to recover my dignity.  I see that I missed the whole point of the "Quiz".  Sorry.

Loner
I would not bother with this question based around a voltage source that dose not exist.
MH is also not able to understand that an ideal voltage cannot be placed across a conductor that has 0 ohms of resistance,and current flowing against that that the ideal voltage wants to create.This is like placing an ideal voltage across an ideal capacitor.
At T=3 seconds--kaboom--bye bye equipment and components.

I wouldnt bother Russ and the crew over on Russ's forum with this rubbish question,it's a waste of time.


Brad

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Marko Rodin Coil -- 007 Device
« Reply #44 on: June 17, 2016, 01:11:58 PM »

 

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