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Author Topic: Cap to Cap dump  (Read 13679 times)

Offline webby1

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Re: Cap to Cap dump
« Reply #60 on: June 15, 2016, 02:47:33 PM »
To take this a little further,, whether towards or away from where you want it to go :)

The slug would not need to move at all,, but the plates could.

When you first posted the question about the slug I thought of the Smitherna (sp?) device.

A non-rotating dielectric with the plates rotating on either side of it,, I am assuming that the slug could encompass the whole of the circle and the polarized section would travel like a wave with the plates "through and within" the dielectric.

Constant current charging the plates causing rotation and then when the plates are over each other on opposite sides of the slug discharge them recovering the input,, or most of it,, thus releasing them to continue on rotating.

Would it be possible to externally polarize the slug while it is between the plates,, remove that polarization force and then have the cap discharge with the relaxation of the dielectric???

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Re: Cap to Cap dump
« Reply #60 on: June 15, 2016, 02:47:33 PM »

Offline tinman

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Re: Cap to Cap dump
« Reply #61 on: June 15, 2016, 03:18:02 PM »
 author=dieter link=topic=16648.msg486246#msg486246 date=1465863492]



Quote
Brad, in your video you're getting more than 50% remaining  left over after the transfer. Actually I don't see how you can end up with two diffrent voltages when the caps where identical, unless the current could not really flow

There were 3 different tests carried out in that video.
In the first test,it was just a resistive transfer,and the voltage ended up very close to half the starting voltage of cap 1--so all is good there.
In the second test,and inductive state was also introduced into the transfer. As we started with 2 volts in cap 1,i stopped the transfer after cap 2 reached 1 volt--or a little over,as this is 25% of the starting energy in cap 1. We then had more than 25% of the starting energy left in cap 1.
The third test was with the secondary on the transformer driving a load. This was to see if this would subtract from the energy transfer from cap to cap--but it did not. For some reason,it aided in the transfer,and less energy was lost during the transfer,when drawing a load from the secondary of the transformer. The secondary was what had the FWBR across it.


Brad

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Offline DreamThinkBuild

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Re: Cap to Cap dump
« Reply #62 on: June 15, 2016, 04:27:36 PM »
Hi Webby1,

There is an interesting dielectric motor which uses the charge between two plates to create an imbalance in the dielectric as rotor. The .txt file has a rough translation.

Offline verpies

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Re: Cap to Cap dump
« Reply #63 on: June 15, 2016, 04:58:39 PM »
So are you suggesting then,, we start with the slug external to the plates,, but on a mechanical system so that any movement of the slug can be converted into a mechanical work out,, slowly charge the cap and watch the slug get pulled into the space between the plates,, when fully inserted,, discharge the cap.
Almost, except the part I marked in bold.
In the Testatika machine, the cap's plates are charged first; next, a dielectric segment is attracted in between them from afar (performing work) and finally the so formed cap, is discharged.

The final discharge recovers not only the initial energy used to charge the empty air cap, but also recovers the energy of the dielectric's polarization (when it relaxes in between the plates).


Offline webby1

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Re: Cap to Cap dump
« Reply #64 on: June 15, 2016, 05:05:56 PM »
Hi Webby1,

There is an interesting dielectric motor which uses the charge between two plates to create an imbalance in the dielectric as rotor. The .txt file has a rough translation.

Thanks,,

I had a few chuckles reading the translation :)

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Cap to Cap dump
« Reply #64 on: June 15, 2016, 05:05:56 PM »
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Offline webby1

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Re: Cap to Cap dump
« Reply #65 on: June 15, 2016, 05:14:57 PM »
Almost, except the part I marked in bold.
In the Testatika machine, the cap's plates are charged first; next, the dielectric segment is attracted between them (performing work) and finally the so formed cap, is discharged.

The final discharge recovers not only the initial energy used to charge the empty air cap, but also recovers the energy of the dielectric's polarization (when it relaxes in between the plates).

No bold showed up,,

Is it better to charge the plates first,, or would it work better if the plates were charged up using a constant current as the plates and dielectric were in relative motion?

I do see a possible window for an output gain to the operator at the cost of the environment of the charge carrier,, the operator does not pay for that environment, but rather "loans" it some influence.

I was also thinking that if the plates rotated in opposite directions with the dielectric stationary that some kind of oscillating wave could be manifested as well as a doubling of the relative rate of change.

reread your post,,  so the drop in stored energy of the cap plates due to the increase in capacitance,, with the slug would that allow for a higher coulomb of charge to move?

Offline verpies

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Re: Cap to Cap dump
« Reply #66 on: June 15, 2016, 06:05:45 PM »
No bold showed up,,
Strange - it still displays as bold in the quote embedded in my previous message.  Perhaps you are using screen magnification that distorts the bold.  Try Ctrl+0 to reset it.

Is it better to charge the plates first,, or would it work better if the plates were charged up using a constant current as the plates and dielectric were in relative motion?
I don't know - I have not analyzed it that far.
For sure, it is easier to analyze it when the plates are energized first and there is no current input as the slug is moving in.
When there is no electric current flowing in or out of the cap, the electric flux of the cap stays constant regardless of where the slug is located in respect to the plates.

I was also thinking that if the plates rotated in opposite directions with the dielectric stationary that some kind of oscillating wave could be manifested as well as a doubling of the relative rate of change.
I am sure stationary dielectric and moving plates would be equivalent to moving dielectric and stationary plates.
I haven't analyzed it as far as the oscillating wave.

reread your post,,  so the drop in stored energy of the cap plates due to the increase in capacitance,, with the slug would that allow for a higher coulomb of charge to move?
I don't understand the question.
The approach of the slug would increase the capacitance and decrease the voltage between the plates to keep  ½CMINVMAX2  equal to  ½CMaxVMIN2,  and I don't think this would decrease the recoverable energy as the CV2 product would stay constant.
In other words: the voltage would go down but that would be compensated by the capacitance going up.

The increase of the capacitance is caused by the dielectric's polarization, of course. 
That dielectric's polarization energy is 100% recoverable in theory ...and 99% in practice.  Mechanical work performed by the slug could be the free bonus.

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Re: Cap to Cap dump
« Reply #66 on: June 15, 2016, 06:05:45 PM »
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Offline webby1

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Re: Cap to Cap dump
« Reply #67 on: June 15, 2016, 07:07:15 PM »
I am sure stationary dielectric and moving plates would be equivalent to moving dielectric and stationary plates.
in my universe motion is relative,, but as I build a mental konstruct sometimes I play with what is in motion to say a housing that is containing the konstruct.
Quote
I haven't analyzed it as far as the oscillating wave.
When I think about the plates moving and the polarization event I see the domains\structures rotating into alignment,, hence the opposite rotation of the plates,, so the wave is not moving per say,, but rotating and causing what might look like a swell that peaks when the plates are aligned and then settling back down either when the force of excitation is removed or the plates have carried on past each other.
Quote
I don't understand the question.
The approach of the slug would increase the capacitance and decrease the voltage between the plates to keep  ½CMINVMAX2  equal to  ½CMaxVMIN2,  and I don't think this would decrease the recoverable energy as the CV2 product would stay constant.
In other words: the voltage would go down but that would be compensated by the capacitance going up.

The increase of the capacitance is caused by the dielectric's polarization, of course. 
That dielectric's polarization energy is 100% recoverable in theory ...and 99% in practice.  Mechanical work performed by the slug could be the free bonus.

When the plates are charged there is a given number of electrons that are shifted,, so for the energy to be balanced between a larger capacitance at a lower voltage there needs to be more charge carriers,,  Right??

Offline webby1

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Re: Cap to Cap dump
« Reply #68 on: June 15, 2016, 10:24:31 PM »
When the plates are charged there is a given number of electrons that are shifted,, so for the energy to be balanced between a larger capacitance at a lower voltage there needs to be more charge carriers,,  Right??

My bad,, not sure what I was thinking,, of course they stay the same,,


Offline verpies

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Re: Cap to Cap dump
« Reply #69 on: June 15, 2016, 11:26:48 PM »
When the plates are charged there is a given number of electrons that are shifted,, so for the energy to be balanced between a larger capacitance at a lower voltage there needs to be more charge carriers,,  Right??
It seems to be the right kind of thinking.
When the slug moves in between the plates, it adds quadrillions protons and electrons to the system.

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Re: Cap to Cap dump
« Reply #69 on: June 15, 2016, 11:26:48 PM »
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Offline webby1

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Re: Cap to Cap dump
« Reply #70 on: June 15, 2016, 11:37:34 PM »
Question;

With this changing capacitance capacitor setup.

If we settle on a moving slug,
If we settle on pre-charging the plates,
If we settle on dumping the charge into an inductor to recycle the charge for the next plate set,
and considering a small budget and maybe not so good build skills,

What materials and size?

To have the slug mounted on a small generator,, aka a small electric motor, to maybe function as a POC?


Offline webby1

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Re: Cap to Cap dump
« Reply #71 on: June 15, 2016, 11:39:40 PM »
It seems to be the right kind of thinking.
When the slug moves in between the plates, it adds quadrillions protons and electrons to the system.

Would there be an electrical recovery directly from the dielectric?


Offline verpies

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Re: Cap to Cap dump
« Reply #72 on: June 16, 2016, 12:13:11 AM »
Would there be an electrical recovery directly from the dielectric?
Do you mean by conduction?

Offline webby1

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Re: Cap to Cap dump
« Reply #73 on: June 16, 2016, 12:30:13 AM »
That is what I was wondering, if you meant by conduction,, I thought it would be the field collapse,, relaxation, driving the plate current\voltage relationship so as to provide the same energy out from the plates as the energy of the charge put in to start with.

I was also wondering,,,

Could this be setup using a capillary type arrangement?

Not that I could do that but others might be able to do it easier,,

So a few long strips of metal in a container that is sealed on the sides but open top and bottom,, a large enough tank holding a liquid dielectric so that when you hold the plate assembly just at the top of the dielectric and charge the plates it would either pull the dielectric up between the plates or pull the plate assembly down into the dielectric,, either way discharge the plates to recover the input,, if the plates are pulled down and into the dielectric you could use something for that mechanical work done, or use the height the liquid is pulled to.

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Offline verpies

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Re: Cap to Cap dump
« Reply #74 on: June 16, 2016, 08:53:03 AM »
If we settle on dumping the charge into an inductor to recycle the charge for the next plate set,
and considering a small budget and maybe not so good build skills,
Indeed the inductor would be the best matched receiver for the energy stored in the cap (and slug).
Real inductors have one flaw, though, that as soon as you dump energy into them, the evil resistance starts to dissipate that energy.  The longer the energy is in the inductor (relative to the L/R ratio) the worse it gets.

What materials and size?
For the first trial, I'd elect a high electric susceptibility slug material, of around 1000cm2 area and aluminum sheet metal cap plates powered by Wimhurst machine or one of these rectified self-defense shockers/paralyzers.

To have the slug mounted on a small generator,, aka a small electric motor, to maybe function as a POC?
For the POC it would be enough to just verify that the CV2 product stays constant while the mechanical output is > 0.

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Re: Cap to Cap dump
« Reply #74 on: June 16, 2016, 08:53:03 AM »

 

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