Cookies-law

Cookies help us to bring you our services at overunity.com . If you use this website and our services you declare yourself okay with using cookies .More Infos here:
http://www.overunity.com/5553/privacy-policy/
If you do not agree with storing cookies, please leave this website now. Many thanks for your understanding.
Amazon Warehouse Deals ! Now even more Deep Discounts ! Check out these great prices on slightly used or just opened once only items.I always buy my gadgets via these great Warehouse deals ! Highly recommended ! Many thanks for supporting OverUnity.com this way.

User Menu

FireMatch

FireMatch

CCKnife

CCKnife

Poplamp

poplamp

CCTool

CCTool

LEDTVforSale

Magpi Magazine

Magpi Magazine Free Rasberry Pi Magazine

Battery Recondition

Battery Recondition

OverUnity Book

overunity principles book

Arduino

Ultracaps

YT Subscribe

movieclipsfree

movie clips free

Gravity Machines

Tesla-Ebook

Magnet Secrets

Lindemann Video

Navigation

Products

Statistics


  • *Total Posts: 485573
  • *Total Topics: 14276
  • *Online Today: 44
  • *Most Online: 103
(December 19, 2006, 11:27:19 PM)
  • *Users: 7
  • *Guests: 201
  • *Total: 208

Facebook

Author Topic: Cap to Cap dump  (Read 10044 times)

Offline Dog-One

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 716
Re: Cap to Cap dump
« Reply #30 on: June 12, 2016, 07:55:47 PM »
So suppose we have a rather elaborate test fixture capable of measuring the most minute levels of EM radiation.

In this fixture we charge two capacitors to equal voltage potential and add a resistor having a very high resistance.
The two capacitors have equivalent capacitance.  What we do different in this test is connect the two capacitors
together with opposing polarities and allow the circuit to come to steady state.

First, has this experiment ever been conducted that anyone is aware of?

And do/would the results show all the gorge is lost while all the energy is radiated and accounted for?


Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Cap to Cap dump
« Reply #30 on: June 12, 2016, 07:55:47 PM »

Offline tinman

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4660
Re: Cap to Cap dump
« Reply #31 on: June 13, 2016, 10:58:16 AM »
Not only due to resistance in realistic cases.
In an ideal cap2cap transfer (without intermediating resistance and inductance) infinite current would flow initially and the entire energy loss would be due to EM radiation.

Most caps i have pulled apart,have the terminal wires fixed to the center of each capacitor plate strip.
This would mean that the current flow would see a CW wound coil for half of the turns,and a CCW coil for the other half of the turns of each of the two plates that make up the capacitor. To me,this would mean a cancellation,or more accurately,a confinement of the EM field  produced by current flowing through the plates--and no,i dont want to get into the current flowing !through! a capacitor discussion ;)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ppWBwZS4e7A

But in saying that,perhaps we are looking in the wrong direction,when we !believe! that half the energy is lost due to resistance. Perhaps half the energy is lost maintaining this second electric field between the capacitor plates of the second cap(the cap being charged),that is created by the displacement current across the capacitor plates as it charges..

Dose it take twice the energy to charge a cap,than what you have in the cap after the charge is complete?. What i mean to say is,if i use 10 joules of energy to charge a cap to say 10 volt's,how much of that 10 joules i used to charge the cap will be actually stored in the cap?--will it be close to the 10 joules used to charge it,or will there only be 5 joules of energy stored in that cap?. Did we loose half of the energy when charging the cap?.

If we ended up with close to the 10 joules we supplied to charge the cap,and the same resistances were present during charging,then it cannot be resistance we loose half our stored energy to,when doing the cap to cap transfer.


Brad

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy


Offline webby1

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2867
Re: Cap to Cap dump
« Reply #32 on: June 13, 2016, 02:36:30 PM »
If I move 10 coulombs of electrons from one plate to the other I have 20 coulombs of difference between those two plates.

I have 10 coulombs of extra on one and 10 coulombs missing on the other.

When I then bring another set of plates in, then the plate with the extra electrons will push 5 coulombs of electrons over to the new plate and the other plate missing electrons will pull 5 coulombs of electrons from the other new plate.

This is for identical caps of course.

So the energy needed to move those first 10 coulombs is 10 pull and 10 push for a total of 20,, then when I dump to another set of plates I get 5 push and 5 pull for a total of 10 that I have not used in any way other than to shift the electrons.

Leaving me with the energy left inside each cap of 5 coulombs, so that is 5 pull and 5 push, or 10 from each which is 20 total,, the same as I started with.

Now if Voltage is pressure and the plates are the volume, then the same quantity in twice the volume has 1\2 the pressure <==== the energy used then to change the pressure of the added cap will be what is used from the first charged cap,, AND it takes a certain quantity within a given volume to make a certain pressure,, so again 1\2 the quantity in the same volume makes 1\2 the pressure.

If then you have a transformer for each plate connection, and that transformer either allowed an outside quantity to be added,, or one transformer output fed into the input of the other,, not sure if that can be done but I can imagine it,, then the energy would not be only used to equalize the pressure but increase the unit quantity instead, and then use that quantity increase to create an energy balance with the starting 1 cap to the final 2 caps.

Now,,, if Tinmans air tank is considered....

Offline poynt99

  • TPU-Elite
  • Hero Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 3560
Re: Cap to Cap dump
« Reply #33 on: June 13, 2016, 02:50:12 PM »
Dose it take twice the energy to charge a cap,than what you have in the cap after the charge is complete?.
Yes.
Quote
What i mean to say is,if i use 10 joules of energy to charge a cap to say 10 volt's,how much of that 10 joules i used to charge the cap will be actually stored in the cap?--will it be close to the 10 joules used to charge it,or will there only be 5 joules of energy stored in that cap?. Did we loose half of the energy when charging the cap?.
You will lose 5 Joules, so 5 Joules will be left in the capacitor.


Offline poynt99

  • TPU-Elite
  • Hero Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 3560
Re: Cap to Cap dump
« Reply #34 on: June 13, 2016, 02:53:49 PM »
Not only due to resistance in realistic cases.
In an ideal cap2cap transfer (without intermediating resistance and inductance) infinite current would flow initially and the entire energy loss would be due to EM radiation.
According to the the electron count exercise we did recently, no EM loss is necessary to account for half the loss. That's not to say the loss has been accounted for in that scenario though, it is still apparently a mystery as to where the missing energy goes.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Cap to Cap dump
« Reply #34 on: June 13, 2016, 02:53:49 PM »
Sponsored links:




Offline webby1

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2867
Re: Cap to Cap dump
« Reply #35 on: June 13, 2016, 02:59:28 PM »
As a separate observation\consideration.

If I have 2 parallel plates separated by 10 distance units and I apply a 10 coulomb charge,, so I pull 10 coulombs of electrons from one plate and push 10 coulombs of electrons into the other plate.

I now have X energy stored within the cap, now I move the plates closer together so that they are only at 1 distance unit of separation.

I do not see that the discussion is over the energy lost to resistance but rather it is in the mechanical change in distance of separation,, the plates will pull together and can and will do work in that process or you can just let them accelerate the plates towards each other freely,, either way work was done.

Offline tinman

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4660
Re: Cap to Cap dump
« Reply #36 on: June 13, 2016, 04:31:25 PM »
Yes.You will lose 5 Joules, so 5 Joules will be left in the capacitor.

Thanks Poynt,i was not sure on that one.
So the question remain's--how or why was it lost?
It would seem that this loss of energy is not just through the cap to cap transfer,but also from any energy source that is used to charge the cap.
But why is it then that we can reduce this loss by way of inductive charging?--what is it in the inducting charging method that reduces this loss?.

I have just carried out a series of tests that you(and everyone here)may find interesting. The video is uploading now,but it is also time for me to hit the hay. So i will leave it load through the night,and post it here tomorrow morning before i head off to work.


Brad

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Cap to Cap dump
« Reply #36 on: June 13, 2016, 04:31:25 PM »
Sponsored links:




Offline tinman

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4660
Re: Cap to Cap dump
« Reply #37 on: June 13, 2016, 04:35:01 PM »
According to the the electron count exercise we did recently, no EM loss is necessary to account for half the loss.

 
Quote
That's not to say the loss has been accounted for in that scenario though, it is still apparently a mystery as to where the missing energy goes.

Could it be due to maintaining the electric field between the plates,that is created due to the displacement current,as i mentioned earlier?.


Brad

Offline verpies

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3367
Re: Cap to Cap dump
« Reply #38 on: June 13, 2016, 04:58:16 PM »
Most caps i have pulled apart,have the terminal wires fixed to the center of each capacitor plate strip.
This would mean that the current flow would see a CW wound coil for half of the turns,and a CCW coil for the other half of the turns of each of the two plates that make up the capacitor. To me,this would mean a cancellation,or more accurately,a confinement of the EM field  produced by current flowing through the plates-
Even if you ignore the current flowing trough the capacitors, there still is current flowing through the switch and the connecting wires. 

Does it take twice the energy to charge a cap,than what you have in the cap after the charge is complete?
If you charge it from another cap or a voltage source, then - yes.
If you charge it from an inductor or a current source, then - no.

Offline verpies

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3367
Re: Cap to Cap dump
« Reply #39 on: June 13, 2016, 05:01:23 PM »
.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Cap to Cap dump
« Reply #39 on: June 13, 2016, 05:01:23 PM »
Sponsored links:




Offline verpies

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3367
Re: Cap to Cap dump
« Reply #40 on: June 13, 2016, 05:48:14 PM »
If I have 2 parallel plates separated by 10 distance units and I apply a 10 coulomb charge,, so I pull 10 coulombs of electrons from one plate and push 10 coulombs of electrons into the other plate.
I now have X energy stored within the cap, now I move the plates closer together so that they are only at 1 distance unit of separation.
The plates are attracted together as they decrease the distance, thus they perform work.
Also, the capacitance of the capacitor increases and the voltage across that capacitor decreases, while the electric flux stays constant.
The energy stored in the capacitor after the plates move closer together is smaller than the energy which was stored when the plates were further apart.  The difference is exactly the amount of mechanical work that the attracted plates have performed.

The above is pretty elementary, what is more interesting is when the distance between these plates stays constant, but there is a high electric susceptibility slug attracted in between these plates (from far away).
In that scenario, the capacitance also increases and the voltage across the capacitor also decreases while the electric flux stays constant, but the approaching dielectric becomes internally polarized.  That polarization represents a part of the stored energy and contributes a part of the total electric flux.

Ask yourself the question, whether the energy used to polarize the dielectric slug can be recovered, once the slug becomes attracted all the way in between the plates ?

Offline webby1

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2867
Re: Cap to Cap dump
« Reply #41 on: June 13, 2016, 06:14:14 PM »
Ask yourself the question, whether the energy used to polarize the dielectric slug can be recovered, once the slug becomes attracted all the way between the plates ?

Or ask yourself the question if the dielectric can be polarized by some other means,, like a change in the pressure on the dielectric.


Offline dieter

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 938
Re: Cap to Cap dump
« Reply #42 on: June 13, 2016, 10:02:18 PM »
It certainly can. Throw an empty cap out of the window on the 30th floor, it will be charged when it hits the ground. AFAIK it is assumed, this Bielefeld-Brown effect happens due to change in atmospheric pressure.

As we speak of caps (not trying to hijack, but...) I have experienced anomalous selfcharging (quickly to ca. 200-300 mV) behaviour of asymmetric capacitance, more specificly, using the aluminum hull as one plate and each of the actual plates as the other. In fact I get a 3 pole cap this way, in which one plate (the hull) is shared by two capacitances.

This may be related to the captret effect tho. Anyway, even tho the actual capacitance of the 2 actual plates doesn't selfcharge at all, I get reliable selfcharging on the two "hull-caps". If I short them for like 1/4s, they drop to zero volts, but then recover within a few seconds to about 80% of the former charge level. If I short them for a longer time, they then need more time to recover, or actually do selfcharge again at about 20mV/Min. After dissipating the charge of one side (hull + cathode) there is still charge in the other side (hull+anode). This is an older 470uF electrolythic cap.

So, if they can selfcharge spontanously, they may also lose energy that way. But besides pressure or heat, I have this strong "intuitive" idea that the way the bespoken loss takes place involves quantumdynamic mechanisms that are not yet understood - and may open up opportunities for energy gain, the sooner or later.


Offline tinman

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4660
Re: Cap to Cap dump
« Reply #43 on: June 14, 2016, 12:39:11 AM »
Well here is the simple little tests i carried out.
Not sure why the results are what they are.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0EWgGv7n1SI


Brad

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy


Offline poynt99

  • TPU-Elite
  • Hero Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 3560
Re: Cap to Cap dump
« Reply #44 on: June 14, 2016, 01:11:08 AM »
Thanks Poynt,i was not sure on that one.
So the question remain's--how or why was it lost?
It would seem that this loss of energy is not just through the cap to cap transfer,but also from any energy source that is used to charge the cap.
But why is it then that we can reduce this loss by way of inductive charging?--what is it in the inducting charging method that reduces this loss?.

Brad
Charging a cap from a voltage source has pretty much the same effect as charging a cap from another cap; half the energy is lost (dissipated as heat) in the connecting conductors.

Like verpies said, we can charge a capacitor from a constant current source too, and if we choose the constant current value (which affects the timing) carefully we can reduce the loss almost to zero.

Why does an inductor help with the efficiency when charging from a voltage source? Inserting a big value, high L/R ratio inductor between the voltage source (supply or capacitor), the inductor acts as a constant current source, thus reducing the loss.

Read this.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Cap to Cap dump
« Reply #44 on: June 14, 2016, 01:11:08 AM »

 

Share this topic to your favourite Social and Bookmark site

Please SHARE this topic at: