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Author Topic: Cap to Cap dump  (Read 12234 times)

Offline webby1

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Cap to Cap dump
« on: May 31, 2016, 08:41:01 PM »
This is just as simple spreadsheet that shows the relationships for a cap to cap dump.

I think I have the usages correct.

The yellow cells are what you can change,, the End Volt is using the calculated end voltage for the dump charge,, but if you were to stop the transfer early then that voltage may not be the same,, and may not be the same for both caps.

I have it set so that both caps end at the same voltage,, so if you change the end voltage to say like 7.1 instead of 5 you will see what changes happen in the charge carrier number.

I "tested" it with a few caps and my DMM and it seemed fairly close for the voltage change with no inductor and the end voltage was a little high when I used an inductor compared to the spreadsheet.,,  YMMV

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Cap to Cap dump
« on: May 31, 2016, 08:41:01 PM »

Offline webby1

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Re: Cap to Cap dump
« Reply #1 on: May 31, 2016, 10:58:38 PM »
I changed it a little bit,,

I have the first section which is the 1\2V,,  then I added the lower section which is viewed with the conservation of energy,, and I added a side section which shows the energy change per step in voltage cap 1 going down as cap 2 goes up.

I did the comparison with only 15 steps,, just enough to show the change as it was happening.

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Online Magluvin

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Re: Cap to Cap dump
« Reply #2 on: May 31, 2016, 11:46:10 PM »
Hey Webby

Was wondering if you understand my argument on the cap to cap ideal vs real.

What Poynt is saying is that in the ideal world if we start with 10v in the source cap then do the cap to cap, that we would end up with 7.07v per cap, vs real world ending up with 5v per cap. The reason he goes by this is that in the ideal world there should be no losses, so the 2 caps would have to end up at 7.07v each, of which the total energy of both caps at 7.07v is equal to 1 cap with 10v. 

But if we do the electron count, ideal vs real world, before and after cap to cap, I see no difference and I believe that the 2 caps in the ideal world would still end up at 5v each after cap to cap.

Just wondered if you get the idea.

Mags

Mags

Offline poynt99

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Re: Cap to Cap dump
« Reply #3 on: June 01, 2016, 04:55:54 AM »
I do see what you are saying Mags. It always ends up at half the voltage.

I can only guess that we are either making an incorrect assumption somewhere regarding the electron counts, or the question itself is not valid (the ideal case).


Offline poynt99

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Re: Cap to Cap dump
« Reply #4 on: June 01, 2016, 05:02:28 AM »
Even Hyperrphysics seems to imply that an ideal cap and connection is not possible, and half the energy is always dissipated.

Another good page.

And this. He seems to indicate that even an ideal cap transfer will result in 50% loss of energy, but he doesn't say where the lost energy goes.

This page may be of interest.

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Re: Cap to Cap dump
« Reply #4 on: June 01, 2016, 05:02:28 AM »
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Offline webby1

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Re: Cap to Cap dump
« Reply #5 on: June 01, 2016, 06:36:28 AM »
I get what is not correct with the situation,, I can not speak as to how or why,, I am still playing with things :)

The second spreadsheet I posted shows both the conservative and the 1\2V values.

What is not described is the method of the loss, only that "IF" the caps end up at 1\2V then there is a 50% loss of energy.

What should be of special note to all is that you "can" use some or most of that "lost" energy and still end up at the 1\2V value.

Another interesting way of looking at it is that when the 2 caps are connected together,, closed system,, then they are actually only 1 larger cap.  One larger cap then means that both negative plates are now one longer plate and the same for the positive,, what is to say that the electrons and holes must move the same on both plates?

Anyways,, to conserve the energy more charge carriers must be moved and with that I looked into a different way of considering the quantity of charge carriers per volt change,, and well the creators of these formulas used the same method for other stuff,, 1+2+3+4... (-1/12)

Could the single plate balloon pump more charge separation,, aka more Coulombs transferred,, by pumping them into the space between the plates?  so the input is say 9 Coulombs but the actual TOTAL transferred is much more,, we might not see it because it is held within the stress of the dielectric medium between the plates.

What I think we would notice is a heat change for the plates and the dielectric between them, both while charging and discharging <= and this could then be a source of resistance internally and it would be sensitive to rate of change.

Just rambling on with some random thoughts.

Offline webby1

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Re: Cap to Cap dump
« Reply #6 on: June 01, 2016, 06:51:10 AM »
Thanks for the reading material Poynt99,,

I wonder just how much energy I wasted in Franken Motor using a main cap to keep the charge up on the run caps,,  I smile because in super cruze mode the main cap would not lose anything for like up to 5 minutes of run,, then something outside would happen,, a strike of one of the arms,, a large arc,, it was always something before it would start its death spiral,, that took about another 3 minutes,,

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Re: Cap to Cap dump
« Reply #6 on: June 01, 2016, 06:51:10 AM »
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Online Magluvin

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Re: Cap to Cap dump
« Reply #7 on: June 01, 2016, 06:56:58 AM »
Even Hyperrphysics seems to imply that an ideal cap and connection is not possible, and half the energy is always dissipated.

Another good page.

And this. He seems to indicate that even an ideal cap transfer will result in 50% loss of energy, but he doesn't say where the lost energy goes.

This page may be of interest.

Thanks.  Guess what?   IM NOT CRAZY!!    ;D    Because I was thinking I was a bit. :o

Checking them out now

It doesnt really change things much, other than, in this particular case, where did the energy go..   Like I said earlier, and before that a few times, we apparently lost it stupidly by not using the energy that happened in the transfer.  One could say that maybe it took that much energy to 'instantly'(fast as possible) do the transfer of electrons. But I think we just let the pressure expand into a container twice as large without doing anything with the action of the transfer. Still leaves an issue with conservation of energy. ;)

So now you understand some of my previous rants about how we didnt lose the energy because of resistance losses.

The cap to cap is a special case. A case where we mostly are looking for the source cap to divide its charge between itself and another cap of equal value. Not typical circuitry.

I do understand resistance losses when it comes to voltage division in typical circuitry, motors, etc.


Mags

Offline webby1

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Re: Cap to Cap dump
« Reply #8 on: June 01, 2016, 01:25:49 PM »
It does not need to be caps of the same value,, it just needs to be any cap to any cap,,

Offline webby1

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Re: Cap to Cap dump
« Reply #9 on: June 01, 2016, 03:31:03 PM »
This may be an overly simplistic view.

If the methodology of the loss can be determined then it should be able to be reversed and charge the cap with energy from wherever it goes to.

To me, calling the loss as an unknown conversion into heat is stopping short,, finding an answer that "works" but is it really the answer?

If it is lost in the rate of change,, well then it might take an infinite amount of time to reverse that process completely,, but unless we keep looking we will never know.


If I take a 10000 cap and a 30000cap and connect them together positive to negative,, but with a motor between each connection,, so 2 caps and 2 motors,, if I spin one motor it will move the charge carriers from one cap and into the other,, and the other cap will send its charge carriers through the other motor and into the first cap,, so you drive one motor with an outside source of torque,, the other motor then is driven by the movement of the charge carriers and both caps get charged up,, well if you use diodes anyway,, they discharge as soon as you stop turning the driven motor :).

If this process were to continue until the charge was 10V then there would be 2J of energy stored within the caps,, that would be providing that you could get both caps to 10V,, I am not sure if the difference between the 2 motors is the cause but I get a different voltage on the caps while spinning the "input" motor.  The smaller cap goes higher in voltage,, does not matter which motor I spin.

If these two motors were connected mechanically,, would one be able to assist the rotation of the other?  If so could that drop the input requirements to charge up both caps?

My first assumption was that the input costs would be the same as the stored energy.

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Re: Cap to Cap dump
« Reply #9 on: June 01, 2016, 03:31:03 PM »
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Offline webby1

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Re: Cap to Cap dump
« Reply #10 on: June 01, 2016, 10:26:26 PM »
I have been playing with the two motors and two caps,,

My caps are 14000,, I have one by itself and the other 3 are in parallel so 42000.

I connect the positive to positive and negative to negative via the motors.

I charge the single to 9.96V through the motor.

I then connect the single via the motor to one side of the pack,, and use the other motor to connect the other side.

Both motors spin and the resting voltage is 2.56 for the 42000 and 2.58 for the 14000.

I then short everything out by shorting the single cap,, the other motor spins while doing this,, and start over.

I do things many times just because and try them at different times of the day just because.

I was wondering to myself,, if the one plate is charged with extra electrons,, then when I connect that plat to another plate those electrons will want to shift onto the other plate and balance,, then the other plate of the capacitor would be missing electrons and so when connected it would suck electrons from the other plate on the other capacitor.

This change I think might not have to do directly with the capacitance of the parallel plates,, well it does but if I am looking for where the energy gets lost besides resistance then I forget about some of that.

Well the rest voltage is above 2.49V ( predicted )
When at rest I can move the voltage from cap to cap by which way I spin either motor,, I have a small motor and a larger one,, if I spin the smaller one the larger one tries to spin but not so much the other way,, I can not see the smaller one trying to spin,, that does not mean that it does not.

Offline webby1

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Re: Cap to Cap dump
« Reply #11 on: June 02, 2016, 02:33:44 PM »
Playing with this something sort of jumped out at me.

What if the stored energy in a capacitor is actually split into 2 modes of storage.  I will call the new one "plate stress",, someone might have a better term.

What if this is something like the self-capacitance?

What that might allow for is the plate stress to combine with the charge separation while the interaction is from plate to plate,, giving back what was stored in total.

Then if you hook the capacitor up to another capacitor the plate stress equals across the new larger plate, so the energy stored within the plate stress now does work on the new unstressed plate instead of doing work to an outside load.

The formulas, in a way, are dealing with a volume to pressure kind of relationship so if this plate stress decreases the volume for the charge separation, when it is used to do work on another plate the "volume" increases from the decrease in plate stress, as well as from the increased surface area of the new larger plates?

This would allow for what looks like a loss in energy,, but it could be that the energy was used internally and not lost in a resistance as heat.


Offline minnie

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Re: Cap to Cap dump
« Reply #12 on: June 02, 2016, 03:42:44 PM »



  Webby,
          do you think an air tank is an analogy that could be used fo a capacitor?
   When you think about it the compressor has any easy job at first but when the
  pressure gets higher it has to work hard and only puts in a little amount for each
  stroke.
          John.

Offline webby1

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Re: Cap to Cap dump
« Reply #13 on: June 02, 2016, 05:15:04 PM »
I sort of started with something like that.

I was thinking maybe something more like an air over hydraulic with membrane,,

Stuff in the fluid and it stresses the membrane and compresses the air,, then when you hook the air to another unit the air now also pushes down on the other membrane but also reduces the air pressure work that can be done assisting the membrane to move the fluid over into the other unit.

Not sure if that makes sense,,

With air in a tank the air molecules get pushed closer together and then that raises there level of excitement,, aka heat,, and the collisions increase in rate and with an increase in force transfer,, blah blah blah,,, and then the heat dissipates out into the local environment and you are left with the increase in pressure do to the increase in unit quantity within the same volume.

Taking that as some basic structure to work from I thought of what is the "heat" part and how are things pushed closer together in such a way as to change the charge separation,, so then the "heat", if you will, would be sent over to the other tank and get in the way needing more energy being spent in "preparing" the tank,, and all of that energy comes from the first tank,, that is why I shifted to the analogy of air\hydro\membrane.

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Offline webby1

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Re: Cap to Cap dump
« Reply #14 on: June 02, 2016, 06:27:42 PM »
Maybe I should try it this way.

Using the air tanks,,

I fill one up with air at pressure,,  dump it into another empty tank and now both tanks have 1\2 the quantity of air at 1\2 the pressure and I am left with 1\2 the energy stored as what I started with.

Now I heat both tanks up and raise the pressure so that I am back at the same energy stored as I started with.

You can see what was added to get there.

Now the caps,,

Charge one cap,, dump it into another cap and now each cap has 1\2 the charge carriers at 1\2 the voltage and I am left with 1\2 the starting energy.

Now I need to mechanically separate the plates of both caps to increase the voltage until I have the same energy stored as I started with.

So I increased the mechanical stress to increase the voltage.

If then when I charged the cap I created a mechanical stress on the plates that affects the stored voltage level,, then when I connect the plates together with another cap that stress is divided between the plates dropping the stress and therefore the voltage level.

The missing energy that was put into charging the cap is not lost to heat via resistance,, it is spent changing the stress level of the added plates and reducing the stress level of the original plates.

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Re: Cap to Cap dump
« Reply #14 on: June 02, 2016, 06:27:42 PM »

 

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