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Author Topic: Reviewing Pulse Motor Circuit Ideas and Theory  (Read 14341 times)

Offline earthbound0729

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Re: Reviewing Pulse Motor Circuit Ideas and Theory
« Reply #45 on: October 01, 2016, 05:36:10 AM »
Good evening all. Have been working alot this week with reading and watching hours of Youtube vids.
Also received my ARRL 2016 book and promptly removed the CD. No time to peruse it yet. Hopefully this weekend.
I also had the opportunity to test out my Tektronix 2465A oscilloscope --(more videos for that) Have a total of 3 probes 10m ohm each.
One doesn't seem to work well. Also I noticed on some of the higher frequency testing that the right edge of the screen tends to be a bit fuzzy.


I did complete building 2 of my circuits and joined them together in functionality on a bread board.
I built the 555 timer circuit and have been testing the capacitor controlling the frequency. My highest test via the oscilloscope is ~150 kHz.
I am waiting on smaller picofarad and nanofarad capacitors coming from China.

Likewise, I needed a driver for my coils and built a mosfet circuit driven by the 555 into the visual range, I have good correlation between the 2 LEDs.
See pictures below.

In the meantime, I am able to begin testing on my coils this weekend.
I also want to build a couple of Tesla type coils this week in different sizes, from very small to large, and test those also.

Questions, comments, and suggestions welcome.

earthbound

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy


Offline rakarskiy

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Re: Reviewing Pulse Motor Circuit Ideas and Theory
« Reply #46 on: November 30, 2016, 04:23:15 PM »
Goodness and wisdom, for ALL!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tL-nXxQM-B8&t=341s

Pulse pusher system is divided into two parts.
The first part, due to the energy in the capacitor. Which stored by the energy of self-induction, the previous pulse.
The second part of the pulse, with the classic indicators of not more than0,8 - 0,9 efficiency.

If you recall the Bedini circuit using a half-bridge.
http://ua-hho.do.am/_fr/0/8700073.jpg

What I suggest is the following.
http://ua-hho.do.am/_fr/0/2179670.jpg

Energy self-inductance, directly to the condenser. Capacitor receive voltage level is greater than the battery voltage.
When next pulse capacitor is discharged first, forming the "explosive momentum". The battery does not waste energy.
The second part of the pulse, as usual.
But kinetically, the rotor has already received its repulsive force.

Offline tinman

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Re: Reviewing Pulse Motor Circuit Ideas and Theory
« Reply #47 on: February 26, 2017, 08:45:06 AM »
A simple mod to the SSG,so as you can use only one battery,to both run the motor,and charge with the high voltage spikes as well.

By the installation of a third inductor(used as a current choke),we are able to use just the one battery,and where we can successfully send the inductive kickback spike back to the very same battery that is running the motor.

A great way to check if your pulse motor !is! actually OU,as the battery voltage should continue to rise over a couple of hours run time.

No cigar in my case,but as you can see,we have been successful in diverting the HV spikes back to the battery,in stead of forming a current loop through the circuit-which is the problem with the standard SSG and SG circuits.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_VCf_ZeQoc


Brad

Offline shylo

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Re: Reviewing Pulse Motor Circuit Ideas and Theory
« Reply #48 on: February 26, 2017, 11:20:19 AM »
Thanks Tinnman, Why is the neon always used?
Also couldn't you be collecting the spike from the trigger coil and choke as well?
Instead of feeding your supply battery the spike , feed it directly back to the drive coil via some kind of switching?
Last but not least , what are those cvr things, are just so you protect your scope?
Nice build.
artv

Offline tinman

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Re: Reviewing Pulse Motor Circuit Ideas and Theory
« Reply #49 on: February 26, 2017, 01:56:29 PM »
 author=shylo link=topic=16645.msg500905#msg500905 date=1488104419]


Quote
Thanks Tinnman, Why is the neon always used?

The neon is used to protect the transistor,if the return path of the inductive kickback becomes disconnected from the battery-or load it may be connected to.

Quote
Also couldn't you be collecting the spike from the trigger coil and choke as well?

You can,but there is no point,as it is simply divided between all three windings.

Quote
Instead of feeding your supply battery the spike , feed it directly back to the drive coil via some kind of switching?

You dont need switching,and feeding it back to the drive coil is the very thing we are trying to avoid,as this forms a current loop,and all that energy is simply dissipated as heat through the circuit.

Quote
Last but not least , what are those cvr things, are just so you protect your scope?
Nice build.

CVR= Current Viewing Resistor.
This is so we can calculate current by measuring the voltage drop across each CVR.
It also allows us to see what the inductive spike is doing,and which way it is going.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Reviewing Pulse Motor Circuit Ideas and Theory
« Reply #49 on: February 26, 2017, 01:56:29 PM »
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Offline citfta

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Re: Reviewing Pulse Motor Circuit Ideas and Theory
« Reply #50 on: February 26, 2017, 06:15:33 PM »
Here is a circuit for capturing the kickback and storing it to use for the next pulse.  This circuit does reduce the current draw from the battery by  almost half.  By adjusting the size of the storage capacitor you can reduce the current draw even more.  The size in the schematic is a little too large for most efficient operation but it does work.  A lower value will work even better depending on the inductance of the drive coil.

Carroll

Offline MileHigh

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Re: Reviewing Pulse Motor Circuit Ideas and Theory
« Reply #51 on: February 26, 2017, 06:44:58 PM »
It looks to me like both circuits don't work at all.  I am not doubting Carroll's statement that the
current draw is reduced but it certainly isn't because the storage capacitor is being charged and
the charge is being used for the next pulse.

Taking a third look at Carroll's circuit I see one totally bizarre path for charging up the storage
capacitor but it looks like only a fraction of the energy in the power coil would actually make it
into the storage capacitor.  Then Q2 may or may not work, I am not sure.  I am not sure how
an AC-coupled NPN transistor base input will behave because it is a non-standard circuit that
doesn't make sense.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Reviewing Pulse Motor Circuit Ideas and Theory
« Reply #51 on: February 26, 2017, 06:44:58 PM »
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Offline citfta

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Re: Reviewing Pulse Motor Circuit Ideas and Theory
« Reply #52 on: February 26, 2017, 08:16:46 PM »
Hello MileHigh,

It has been a while since we passed posts back and forth.

Ok let me explain the circuit operation to you.  This is a schematic for an idea I had on recycling the inductive kickback.  I have used this circuit and it does work.  There are a couple of small changes you can make to make it work better but it will work just as I have drawn it.

This circuit is for a pulse motor that uses a trigger coil that is pulsed by the passing magnet.  Nothing new there.  I have coupled the pulse to the base of the second transistor Q2.  I have found out that the 5K pot is not really needed.  Both the transistors are 2N3055 transistors in the metal case.  The pulse goes from the trigger coil to the 6uf cap to the base of Q2 and then back to ground through the coil and transistor Q1 as it also gets turned on at the same time.  A scope shot shows this to be working correctly.  Of course turning on the transistor like this will only give you a short on time until the cap going to the base gets mostly charged.  But we only need a short pulse anyway.  The value of 6uf was arrived at by trial and error until I got the pulse I wanted from Q2.

As far as the charging of the cap goes it will be easier to understand if we remove a couple of the diodes from the bridge.  Looking at the bridge remove the upper right and lower left diodes.  I only included a bridge to collect any excess ringing pulses that might occur from the quick turning off of the coil.  With only the other diodes in the circuit it should be easy to see the coil discharge current going to the upper left diode to the cap and the return from the cap going back through the lower right diode to the top of the coil.  As I said in the previous post this really works better with a smaller value for the cap.  A smaller value for the cap will of course charge to a higher voltage with less pulses.  Also because of the bridge the cap gets charged to almost the supply voltage as soon as the supply is turned on.  So the inductive kickback does not start out trying to charge a totally discharged cap.

Using this circuit I was able to get a pulse motor that had been running on 120 milliamps down to 40 milliamps with some careful tuning.

Take care and let me know if you have any more questions about this circuit,

Carroll

Offline MileHigh

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Re: Reviewing Pulse Motor Circuit Ideas and Theory
« Reply #53 on: February 26, 2017, 08:42:40 PM »
Carroll,

Thanks, you pointed out a conduction path for the discharging power coil that I did
not see.  I saw three unlikely paths and I missed the correct path that you described.

For what it's worth the AC coupling to switch on Q2 is a "cheat" and its stability and
overall reliability are probably questionable.  There may be a better way to do it with
an FET or MOSFET where you bias the gate with a very high impedance resistor divider
network such that you keep the switch off, and then the AC coupled trigger signal
switches it on.  You might even be able to do something similar with the original
2N3055 transistor.

MileHigh

Offline citfta

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Re: Reviewing Pulse Motor Circuit Ideas and Theory
« Reply #54 on: February 26, 2017, 08:54:21 PM »
MileHigh,

I agree there are probably several ways to switch Q2 better than the method I chose.  I was asked to design this for a couple of people that have limited electronics experience and therefore tried to keep it as simple as I could so they could copy it and get it to work.  And I know that at least one of them was able to build it and get it work.  I have also run it for extended periods of time with no problem getting Q2 to switch.  But those 2N3055's are some pretty tough transistors for a run of the mile type.  Other transistors probably wouldn't work so well in that configuration.

Thanks for your interest and taking the time to look at it.

Carroll

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Reviewing Pulse Motor Circuit Ideas and Theory
« Reply #54 on: February 26, 2017, 08:54:21 PM »
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Offline shylo

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Re: Reviewing Pulse Motor Circuit Ideas and Theory
« Reply #55 on: February 27, 2017, 12:27:27 AM »
<blockquote>I said "Also couldn't you be collecting the spike from the trigger coil and choke as well?"</blockquote>
You said"You can,but there is no point,as it is simply divided between all three windings."

What if they all work circuit wise , independent?

No two spikes ever happen at the same time.
artv

Offline tinman

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Re: Reviewing Pulse Motor Circuit Ideas and Theory
« Reply #56 on: February 27, 2017, 12:31:41 AM »
It looks to me like both circuits don't work at all.  I am not doubting Carroll's statement that the
current draw is reduced but it certainly isn't because the storage capacitor is being charged and
the charge is being used for the next pulse.

Taking a third look at Carroll's circuit I see one totally bizarre path for charging up the storage
capacitor but it looks like only a fraction of the energy in the power coil would actually make it
into the storage capacitor.  Then Q2 may or may not work, I am not sure.  I am not sure how
an AC-coupled NPN transistor base input will behave because it is a non-standard circuit that
doesn't make sense.

@MH

Could you explain as to why you believe that the circuit i posted looks like it wouldnt work?.

The idea behind the circuit,is to be able to use just the one battery,and be able to send the bulk of the inductive kickback current back to that battery-without it following the current loop path through the circuit-->that is,the standard SSG circuit.

The scope clearly show's that the circuit works as planed.


Brad.

Offline tinman

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Re: Reviewing Pulse Motor Circuit Ideas and Theory
« Reply #57 on: February 27, 2017, 12:38:48 AM »
<blockquote>I said "Also couldn't you be collecting the spike from the trigger coil and choke as well?"</blockquote>
You said"You can,but there is no point,as it is simply divided between all three windings."

What if they all work circuit wise , independent?

No two spikes ever happen at the same time.
artv

Ok,first-there is no spike through L3. That was the whole point in adding that inductor.

Second
As the run and trigger(as we call them)coils are wound together,there would be no point in splitting the inductors stored energy into two,and capture that inductive energy spike from both coils. In fact,there would be further losses,as you would also need another diode on the trigger coil to capture that inductive spike energy.


Brad

Offline MileHigh

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Re: Reviewing Pulse Motor Circuit Ideas and Theory
« Reply #58 on: February 27, 2017, 01:46:01 AM »
Brad:

I can't see a conduction path for the discharging power coil on your schematic that charges the
battery.  Also, I don't see anything on your scope display that shows the traces are
inverted.  If the battery current trace is not inverted then a positive spike means the
battery is discharging, not charging.  Beyond that, I can't explain your scope traces in
general, there is a lot going on there.

Okay, similar to Carroll's schematic I took a third look at the current path.  Here is what I think
happens when the power coil L1 discharges.  The current can go through L3 or through the battery
and C1.  L3 will initially block the current so the current will go through the battery and C1.  That
will charge the battery.  However that will reduce the voltage in C1 and right away the battery
will start to recharge C1 through L3.  So you have a battery charge-discharge event every
time the power coil L1 discharges, which looks like a net zero sum game.  It would be a good
pSpice simulation because you could play with the component values to see how the timing
changes.  You have to remember that with large enough inductors, it's possible that there will
be a continuous flow of current through L1 and L3 when the pulse motor is on.

There is another "unknown" factor that may further complicate things.  It's the EMF induced
in L1 from the passing rotor magnets.  I think in the battery current trace you might see
a curve there that shows the EMF signature causing current to flow but I am not sure.

MileHigh

Offline tinman

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Re: Reviewing Pulse Motor Circuit Ideas and Theory
« Reply #59 on: February 27, 2017, 03:49:22 AM »
Brad:

I can't see a conduction path for the discharging power coil on your schematic that charges the
battery.  Also, I don't see anything on your scope display that shows the traces are
inverted.  If the battery current trace is not inverted then a positive spike means the
battery is discharging, not charging.  Beyond that, I can't explain your scope traces in
general, there is a lot going on there.

Okay, similar to Carroll's schematic I took a third look at the current path.  Here is what I think
happens when the power coil L1 discharges.  The current can go through L3 or through the battery
and C1.  L3 will initially block the current so the current will go through the battery and C1.  That
will charge the battery.  However that will reduce the voltage in C1 and right away the battery
will start to recharge C1 through L3.  So you have a battery charge-discharge event every
time the power coil L1 discharges, which looks like a net zero sum game.  It would be a good
pSpice simulation because you could play with the component values to see how the timing
changes.  You have to remember that with large enough inductors, it's possible that there will
be a continuous flow of current through L1 and L3 when the pulse motor is on.

There is another "unknown" factor that may further complicate things.  It's the EMF induced
in L1 from the passing rotor magnets.  I think in the battery current trace you might see
a curve there that shows the EMF signature causing current to flow but I am not sure.

MileHigh

MH

The idea of the circuit,is simply to use just one battery,and be able to send the HV spike back to that battery. This cant be done with the standard SSG circuit,using just the one battery,as a current loop is formed,and the motor would simply stop or bog down,and use excessive current.
L3 stops the HV spike following the current loop path through the circuit,as it(L3) is seen as a large impedance to the HV spike,and so that current from the spike follows the path of lease resistance,which is through the battery.

L3 allows current to flow into C1,but becomes a high impedance during the inductive kickback spike.

That was the only job this circuit is suppose to do,nothing special is suppose to take place.

We can now desulphate the same battery that is running the circuit.


Brad

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Reviewing Pulse Motor Circuit Ideas and Theory
« Reply #59 on: February 27, 2017, 03:49:22 AM »

 

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