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Author Topic: Does Dielectric Displacement Current generate a magnetic field?  (Read 5177 times)

Offline Reiyuki

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Here's the question for everyone:
  "Does displacement current generate a magnetic field?  If so, where and at what angles?"

Either answer can have some wild ramifications, so think carefully.


(I'll be updating this post with new information as the topic evolves, but I'd like to see what your own thoughts are on the matter)


Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy


Offline Dog-One

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Re: Does Dielectric Displacement Current generate a magnetic field?
« Reply #1 on: May 23, 2016, 08:42:33 AM »
I'll step up to the plate.  No guarantees, only a swing or two at the ball.


We mostly know what an electron does right?  As far as electrical current goes.

Okay, so think for a moment.  An electron has a negative electrical charge.
Now ask yourself this:  Where does this charge come from that the electron
carries around with it?

???

Does it matter?   Something gives it charge right?

So is there any reason this thing that gives an electron a negative charge
have to be bound to an electron?  I don't think so.  Charge is charge.  It
can be associated with a particle of matter like an electron or a proton or
be completely on its own without any association with matter.

So charge can create current and it can be massless, or mass, or a
combination of both.  Current is the key here.  It's not just sitting
there.  It is displacing, changing, moving.  The current creates the
magnetic field.  Then the current must be charge in motion.  I would
say lightning is charge in motion, but does it create a magnetic field?
I think so.  I do not know for sure.  Not something I have played with,
but once and I lost four hours of consciousness doing it.

Your question is a good one, because with more than one type of
current, the magnetic fields created by these varieties may have
different properties, each with their own utility.

A couple years back I looked at a concept known as Tetryonics.  I'm
not convinced this theory is accurate, but it did promote some
imagery that helped to understand what things might be doing.
The way in which charge moves is very likely the key to understanding
how a magnetic field forms.  My hunch is the magnetic field always
works at right angles to the vector of charge motion.  When the
charge is associated with a spinning mass, you can imagine the
field it creates is likely rotational in nature.  The interaction of
multiple spinning masses would then produce a very complex
pattern of magnetic flux.  These would line up in a way to create
minimal stress within the localized area.  The rules would be
obeyed, whatever those rules truly are.


Looking forward to reading what others have to say about this
topic.


Some may want to spend some time with this one:
http://tetryonictheory.com/t111

M@



Offline Reiyuki

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Re: Does Dielectric Displacement Current generate a magnetic field?
« Reply #3 on: May 23, 2016, 06:12:42 PM »
Thanks Dog-one and Lanca

Quote
Dog-one: My hunch is the magnetic field always works at right angles to the vector of charge motion.

That's a good way to explain it.

With this explanation, it would mean that charging a plate capacitor would create two opposed axial fields (twisting/spiral magnetic fields), one on each plate.  One plate CW, the other plate CCW.
Those fields would disappear as charge is built and current stops flowing as the cap is charged.


@lancaIV
You see exactly where I'm going with this, eh? ;)

Lets take the above analysis where a charging/discharging cap creates a CW and CCW magnetic field, and apply it in reverse:
  If we create an expanding CW field and CCW field opposed to each-other, does that mean we just synthesized a capacitor?


Dave45

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Re: Does Dielectric Displacement Current generate a magnetic field?
« Reply #4 on: May 24, 2016, 02:17:40 AM »
Why does an electron only create a magnetic field when its moving, why not at rest?
When its energized is it spinning and not at rest?

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Does Dielectric Displacement Current generate a magnetic field?
« Reply #4 on: May 24, 2016, 02:17:40 AM »
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Offline John.K1

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Re: Does Dielectric Displacement Current generate a magnetic field?
« Reply #5 on: May 24, 2016, 01:33:11 PM »
Why does an electron only create a magnetic field when its moving, why not at rest?
When its energized is it spinning and not at rest?

Hi Dave, I can imagine that every electron is actually little magnet, if they move chaotically the magnetic field cancel. Once the electrons move in one direction their magnetic fields alignes and you get measurable value. Not sure if there is such thing as electron in the rest.

Offline Reiyuki

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Continuing on the thought process...
« Reply #6 on: May 24, 2016, 09:48:49 PM »
@dave,
  If we're following the electron model, I'd agree with John.K1, that spins are present but chaotic, and when moving they order themselves.  Coherent vs chaotic.  I suspect unipolar induction math could mathematically describe the behavior.   Wattsup would likely explain it under nuclear "Spin Conveyance" model and ignore electrons entirely.


Continuing on, the question is whether dielectric current has an associated magnetic field:

If the answer is 'Yes', then it likely means:
 * With coils, extra energy might be extracted from our capacitor to do to real work, as it is charging or discharging.

 * A charging/discharging capacitor may be literally boosted by applying a magnetic field as it is charging.  It would look like 'Tesla's Notes on a Unipolar Dynamo' spiral, but instead applied to capacitor plates.  A capacitor made of two opposite pancake winding instead of plates would be incredibly efficient.   (see: 'Mislavskij transformer')

If the answer is 'No', then it likely means:
 * Displacement current is literally superconductive (transmits energy without losses).

 * Since it's not bound by magnetism, displacements faster than C might be allowed (since compression waves can propagate faster than individual particle velocities).  I believe Don Smith mentioned dielectric propagation at 1.53c.

 * If displacement can occur >C, then it means a fast-discharging capacitor can create free displacements elsewhere in open space.

I think the answer is probably a bit of both (magnetism on the plates, but not in the dielectric).



With these concepts in mind, all of a sudden many of the proclaimed OU systems start to make sense ;)

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Continuing on the thought process...
« Reply #6 on: May 24, 2016, 09:48:49 PM »
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Offline DreamThinkBuild

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Re: Does Dielectric Displacement Current generate a magnetic field?
« Reply #8 on: May 25, 2016, 07:36:04 PM »
Hi lancaIV,

Thanks for those patents. I've found a patent of a four plate capacitor with some interesting "claims" of glowing, getting cold and self running. It seems he wants to use the cooling effect for air conditioning, maybe some kind of Peltier effect going on between the plates.

CN1104390 - Voltage magnificator, four-pole plate capacitor and permanent cell

https://www.google.com/patents/CN1104390A?cl=en
http://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?CC=CN&NR=1104390A&KC=A&FT=D

Looks like two inner plates with a static HV DC source and then the outer plates are spiked with DC pulses.

EDIT:

Hi Reiyuki,

Here are some of my notes on effects of spinning dielectrics these are usually opposite of homopolar generators. If the dielectric is spun through a charged field then it will show magnetic properties according to the Rowland Effect.

Offline lancaIV

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Re: Does Dielectric Displacement Current generate a magnetic field?
« Reply #9 on: May 25, 2016, 09:09:38 PM »
DC pulses: Dirac surges ?

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Does Dielectric Displacement Current generate a magnetic field?
« Reply #9 on: May 25, 2016, 09:09:38 PM »
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Offline myenergetic

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Re: Does Dielectric Displacement Current generate a magnetic field?
« Reply #10 on: May 26, 2016, 02:52:35 AM »
Here's the question for everyone:
  "Does displacement current generate a magnetic field?  If so, where and at what angles?"


Hi there
Here is my take on the issue.
In order to try to address your question, the question should be properly defined.
1, If your question is based on the Maxwell displacement current then “Maxwell displacement current” either in vacuum or in dielectrics, neither generate magnetic field nor are sensitive to external magnetic fields. In other words current in dielectrics “The polarization current” does not act with potential forces on other currents and “external magnetic field” does not react with kinetic forces to the action of other currents.
2, Displacement current is a quantity appearing in Maxwell's equations that is defined in terms of the rate of change of electric displacement field. Displacement current has the units of electric current density, and it has an associated magnetic field just as actual currents do. However it is not an electric current of moving charges, but a time-varying electric field.
To conclude the above I quote from
“Harry McLaughlin” https://www.quora.com/profile/Harry-McLaughlin
a. A "changing" electric field CANNOT create a magnetic field
b. A "changing" magnetic field CANNOT create an electric field “end of quote”
3, The so-called "displacement current" term(1/4π)  ∂E/∂t  is not some current density generating magnetic field, as Maxwell supposed. This term gives information about the conduction currents which have been interrupted in the neighborhood of the reference point.
4, For what it worth, we cannot measure magnetic field produced by displacement currents but we can measure exactly the field of the interrupted conduction currents. Even if the details are not so obvious and require a skill to understand but what the equations imply is that the electric and magnetic fields depend only on the source charges. It is our orientation relative to the source charges and their motions that give rise to the details of the fields we measure.

From Maxwell basic equations the only sensible is the existence of ε0 and µ0
∂E/∂x=-Z0 ϵ0  ∂E/∂t
∂H/∂x=-μ0/Z0 ∂H/∂t

And they express that the E field causes the E Filed and The H field causes the H field
WAW what a discovery!!!!

The Equations only express that E and H fields are co-existent, co-substantial, and co-eternal like any two perpendicular sides of a brick neither the length affects the width or the other way around.

Hope it helps
jj

Dave45

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Re: Does Dielectric Displacement Current generate a magnetic field?
« Reply #11 on: May 26, 2016, 02:56:27 AM »
We have been looking at the coil, maybe we to start designing capacitors.


Dave45

  • Guest
Re: Does Dielectric Displacement Current generate a magnetic field?
« Reply #12 on: May 26, 2016, 03:04:39 AM »
So what are you asking? Does a cap ha e a magnetic field? No it creates an electric field.
Does dielectric current create a magnetic field in a wire,yes an L c circuit shows this, the coil produces a magnetic field

Offline Reiyuki

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Re: Does Dielectric Displacement Current generate a magnetic field?
« Reply #13 on: May 26, 2016, 04:15:48 AM »
So what are you asking? Does a cap have a magnetic field? No it creates an electric field.
Does dielectric current create a magnetic field in a wire,yes an L c circuit shows this, the coil produces a magnetic field

  When we charge or discharge a cap, in (see pic), a change takes place in the dielectric.  We know energy moves across (series resonance), but I cannot find much information on the actual properties of the 'current' that facilitates this.  Most importantly:  how fast is the propagation between plates?  Does it have magnetic properties, like magnetic flux?  And what are the losses if not inductive?
  When it is static (not being charged/discharged), there is no energy transfer in the dielectric, so it is a 'neutral' condition.


@myenergetic,  I think I understand what you're saying, but I'm not sure how to apply any of it.


Offline lancaIV

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Re: Does Dielectric Displacement Current generate a magnetic field?
« Reply #14 on: May 26, 2016, 11:46:15 AM »
We have been looking at the coil, maybe we to start designing capacitors.


http://www.ourenergypolicy.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/130-Electrical-Energy-Innovations.pdf
Page 9 Induction Coil Coating Increases Generator OUTPUT by 1/3

Are you using it,Dave 45 ? Could you give me the "know-how" ? ;)

 
+
http://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/originalDocument?FT=D&date=20080812&DB=EPODOC&locale=en_EP&CC=US&NR=7411363B2&KC=B2&ND=4
Conservation of Electrical Energy and Electro-Magnetic Power in Motor, Generator, and Product Components 
Double Wire Winding In the preferred embodiment, double wire winding is used for the inductive winding. In the conventional art, wiring is done in opposite directions. The present disclosure conserves energy by wiring in a common direction. FIG. 14 and FIG. 15 illustrate double wire winding. The figures show how two wires are wrapped around the core in the same direction. As soon as the end of the core is reached, the wires are brought straight back to the starting position and wrapped in the same direction again. The wiring is done in multiple layers.[/size]The two wires used to create a double wire winding are labeled Wire A and Wire B with the associated - or + sign to indicate the direction of current flow. In the figures to follow, the labels "A+, A-, B+, and B-" will be used to illustrate how the double wire winding is connected to the incoming power line and the capacitor. The negative (-) end of Wire B (B-) should be connected to the first incoming power line node and the negative (-) end of Wire A (A-) should be connected to the second incoming power line node. The positive (+) ends of Wire A (A+) and Wire B (B+) should be connected to the capacitor.[/size]

and/or
http://www.arestov.de/index.php/de/elektromotoren/windenergie
Beispiel: Eine Windkraftanlage mit Nominial 400 W (Herstellerangabe) erzeugte bei einer Windstärke von ca. 20 m/Sek. eine Leistung von 70 Watt. Nach Umrüstung des Generators auf kombinierte Wicklungen lieferte die Anlage bereits bei einer Windstärke von 5-6 m/Sek. 140 Watt. Bei 10-12 m/Sek. wurden über 320 Watt erzeugt!
translated :
Example: A wind turbine with Nominial 400 W (manufacturer information) generated at a wind speed of 20 m / sec. a power of 70 watts. After conversion of the generator windings combined the plant has already supplied at a wind speed of 5-6 m / sec. 140 watts. At 10-12 m / sec. about 320 watts were produced!

                                                                             Coating these coils ?!
and for the drive side:
http://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/description?CC=MY&NR=137586A&KC=A&FT=D&ND=3&date=20090227&DB=EPODOC&locale=en_EP
In FIG. 4, showing a three-phase implementation of the invention for a three-phase motor 410 (which may be substituted for the motor 260 in FIG. 2A), the input wire for phase A is attached to the left terminal of a first capacitor C1, and another connection is made from a right terminal of capacitor C1 to a left terminal of capacitor C2. The input wire for phase B is attached to the left terminal of capacitor C2, and the other terminal of capacitor C2 is connected to a left terminal of capacitor C3. The input wire of phase C is attached to the left terminal of capacitor C3, and the other terminal of capacitor C3 is connected to the left terminal of capacitor C1. [/font][/size]An output wire for phase A is connected from the left terminal of capacitor C1 to the phase A input of the motor. The output wire for phase B is connected from the left terminal of capacitor C2 to the phase B input of the motor. The output wire for phase C is connected from the left terminal of capacitor C3 to the phase C input of the motor. Test results using a motor configured as in FIG. 4 are as follows: TABLE 6Readings  Readings  Workat 410  at 410  PerformanceBaseline  Three Phase  20.5 psi  Implementation462  V  462  V  1.7  A  1.6  A552  W RMS @  185  W RMS @  20.5 psi  watt meter    watt meter552  W per hour  185  W per hour


More info about motor and generator construction and performance improvements:
William Putt
http://worldwide.espacenet.com/searchResults?submitted=true&locale=en_EP&DB=EPODOC&ST=advanced&TI=&AB=&PN=&AP=&PR=&PD=&PA=william+putt&IN=&CPC=&IC=&Submit=Search


Fred Miekka
http://worldwide.espacenet.com/searchResults?submitted=true&locale=en_EP&DB=EPODOC&ST=advanced&TI=&AB=&PN=&AP=&PR=&PD=&PA=fred+miekka&IN=&CPC=&IC=&Submit=Search


Sankar Pat ,Ronbach array
http://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?DB=EPODOC&II=2&ND=3&adjacent=true&locale=en_EP&FT=D&date=20130314&CC=US&NR=2013062983A1&KC=A1
applied:
http://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?DB=EPODOC&II=4&ND=3&adjacent=true&locale=en_EP&FT=D&date=20111006&CC=US&NR=2011241349A1&KC=A1
[0040] As illustrated in Table I (above), the Ronbach magnetic array of both the [/font][/size]electromagnetic generator/motor 1 (FIG. 1) and the electromagnetic generator/motor 1a (FIG. 1A) improve the output of EMF 8 and torque significantly over conventional single-magnet arrays. [/font][/size][0041] Referring next to FIGS. 3A-3D of the drawings, an exemplary design of a three-phase electromagnetic generator/motor which has a Ronbach magnet array and is suitable for implementation of an illustrative embodiment of the windmill generator is generally indicated by reference numeral 10 in FIG. 3C. The Ronbach magnet array of the electromagnetic generator/motor 10 may be compatible with the design of both AC motors and DC motors.
 [/size]

Charles Flynn
http://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?DB=EPODOC&II=102&ND=3&adjacent=true&locale=en_EP&FT=D&date=19930805&CC=WO&NR=9315513A1&KC=A1
If the coil is energized in a manner such that the magnetic field of the coil opposes the field of the permanent magnet on which it is mounted, then the north pole of the permanent magnet will short to the south pole of the coil and the south pole of the permanent 5 magnet short to the north pole of the coil. In other words the coil will produce a counter magnetomotive force that opposes, and therefore cancels all or a predetermined portion of the magnetic force surrounding the permanent magnet. If the opposing magnetic field of the coil equals or nearly equals the field surrounding the permanent magnet, the effect is to neutralize or make the effective field of the permanent magnet equal to zero. If it has been reduced to zero in the manner indicted then even if another permanent magnet if brought into close proximity to that magnet it will not be attracted or be magnetically coupled to the permanent magnet whose field has been cancelled and in effect the magnets will be isolated from each other. This happens in much the same way as putting an iron keeper on a horseshoe magnet. Cancelling the field of a permanent magnet has the further effect of blocking outside magnetic fields from reaching or coupling to the permanent magnet whose fields has been cancelled in this way. Therefore, not only does the coil cancel the effect of the permanent magnet but it also blocks or prevents other magnets including other permanent magnets brought into the vacinity thereof from having their fields reach the field of the magnet whose field has been cancelled. In other words the magnet whose field is cancelled is magnetically isolated from other magnets. It is this phenomenon of the present invention that enables interrupting the coupling between the magnets including between a stationary magnet and a rotating magnet, and this condition exists even when relatively large and powerful magnets are used. This also enables a relatively small device to be able to produce substantial rotational force and torque.


If the coil on the permanent magnet is oriented so that when energized the field of the coil is in aiding relation to the field of the permanent magnet, the resultant magnetic force will be increased to at or near the combined fields of the permanent magnet plus the field due to the energized coil. Under these circumstances the permanent magnet will attract (or repel) a second permanent magnet brought into the field thereof such as a rotating magnetic member, and will produce even greater coupling force between the members and at even greater distances between the magnets. This fact can be made use of in the present device to increase the torque generated in some embodiments.

« Last Edit: May 26, 2016, 02:50:03 PM by lancaIV »

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Re: Does Dielectric Displacement Current generate a magnetic field?
« Reply #14 on: May 26, 2016, 11:46:15 AM »

 

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