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# New Book

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### Author Topic: After all the Lorentz Force (of Lenz' drag) is a force...  (Read 6507 times)

#### dieter

• Hero Member
• Posts: 968
##### After all the Lorentz Force (of Lenz' drag) is a force...
« on: May 20, 2016, 10:28:16 PM »
To those interested in and understanding induction, if you want to discuss / pick up the following, you're welcome.

Pity, that Lenz law, and noble the quest for the "lenzless" is. Thinking about all these, I came to some startling conclusions:

Normally, if we're approaching, say, a permantent magnet PM towards a coil, the field strength in the coil is increasing. We know the result, the current flow generates a secondary field that repelles the pm while approaching (=increasing field strength), and attracting it when it's moving away(=decreasing field strength).

So I realized, all that is needed is a magnet that causes a decreasing field strength when it is approaching, and an increasing field strength when it is moving away.

In response the coil would then, according to Lenz's law, attract the magnet when it is approaching, and repell it, when it is moving away. In other words, whatever direction the magnet is moving, its motion is accellerated by what is formerly known as "Lenz drag", probably best named "Reverse Lorentz Force Accelleration", or the "Marfurt Effect" if you prefer.

Of course, that would require a flowing current and furthermore, the heavier the attached load, the more selfaccelleration.

So to stop this selfrunner, eg. to prevent a runaway situation (not unthinkable with ferrite cores etc.), one had to unplug the load .

Such a fancy magnet, or pseudo magnet, would be great, wouldn't it? I wonder if anybody was every successful in implementing such a thing. Well, if I were, I seriously were in troubles, not knowing how to proceed.

#### Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

##### After all the Lorentz Force (of Lenz' drag) is a force...
« on: May 20, 2016, 10:28:16 PM »

#### penno64

• Sr. Member
• Posts: 457
##### Re: After all the Lorentz Force (of Lenz' drag) is a force...
« Reply #1 on: May 20, 2016, 11:28:47 PM »
=rtv3

Tinman has the device you describe but won't disclose.

Says it eats brushes just like lockridge.

Penno

#### Floor

• Hero Member
• Posts: 753
##### Re: After all the Lorentz Force (of Lenz' drag) is a force...
« Reply #2 on: May 21, 2016, 12:30:54 AM »
@Dieter

I work with permanent magnets, because their interactions
are in some ways simple. Or should I say rather that the
bottom line of their I : O  is simpler.

I see some times, what I think of as analogies between the curves in
force x displacement integrations and the curves in a single
wave form. I think this is especially interesting in the context of pulse motors.
...........................
If I am using these terms in the right place.... as I recall and put very simply....
reluctance is current lagging behind voltage while reactance gives us the back spike.

There is also some kind of analogy in the resistance to acceleration of a
mass against inertia and a coils reluctance... and the resistance to DEceleration
(momentum) of a mass due to inertia and a coils reactance.
............................
This of course all relates to the expansion and contraction of  magnetic "fields" giving rise
to electric currents which in turn give rise to secondary magnetic fields, and so on.
...........................
I have been working with a hypothesis that near 90 deg. interactions (and although they may largely negate momentum) may lead to increased cop if not OU, under certain conditions.

This hypothesis may or may not add to your bag of tricks in accomplishing what you suggest to
explore.
.................
Also.... Some thing I have pondered is;  do two permanent magnet approaching one another (pole to
pole)  either attracting or repelling, induce electric currents each in the other ?

Thank you very much for your time
floor

#### shylo

• Sr. Member
• Posts: 475
##### Re: After all the Lorentz Force (of Lenz' drag) is a force...
« Reply #3 on: May 21, 2016, 10:28:18 AM »
Hi Dieter, "Normally, if we're approaching, say, a permantent magnet PM towards a coil, the field strength in the coil is increasing. We know the result, the current flow generates a secondary field that repelles the pm while approaching (=increasing field strength), and attracting it when it's moving away(=decreasing field strength).

Isn't it more like an approaching magnet creates current flow in such a direction to create an electro-magnet of the same polarity and this is the repulsion, and after TDC the current reverses, thus creating an opposite pole which is now pulling the leaving magnet back? Also all of this only happens if there is a load attached to the coils leads.
artv

#### ALVARO_CS

• Full Member
• Posts: 169
##### Re: After all the Lorentz Force (of Lenz' drag) is a force...
« Reply #4 on: May 21, 2016, 01:29:22 PM »
In a system designed to serve as an exciter, where the inducing and induced field interactions are orthogonal, where one assumes that the induced circuit, under "normal" circumstances is configured series cancelling, and the inducing circuit is from a magnetics standpoint "unidirectional", an inversion of Lenz's law can be experienced when the excited circuit is placed under load.

Erfinder:
Does that "inversion" means attraction force in  magnet to coil before TDC and repulsion after ?
I think (intuitively) that there is a clue in that word "orthogonal" (from a geometric point of view)

#### Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

##### Re: After all the Lorentz Force (of Lenz' drag) is a force...
« Reply #4 on: May 21, 2016, 01:29:22 PM »

#### penno64

• Sr. Member
• Posts: 457
##### Re: After all the Lorentz Force (of Lenz' drag) is a force...
« Reply #5 on: May 21, 2016, 05:32:12 PM »
In a system designed to serve as an exciter, where the inducing and induced field interactions are orthogonal, where one assumes that the induced circuit, under "normal" circumstances is configured series cancelling, and the inducing circuit is from a magnetics standpoint "unidirectional", an inversion of Lenz's law can be experienced when the excited circuit is placed under load.

That which is being suggested here has nothing to do with anything that anyone has demonstrated nor discussed on this or any other forum.

Regards

Oh yeah -

#### ALVARO_CS

• Full Member
• Posts: 169
##### Re: After all the Lorentz Force (of Lenz' drag) is a force...
« Reply #6 on: May 21, 2016, 06:47:46 PM »
It will be saved. (and studied)
cheers

#### Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

##### Re: After all the Lorentz Force (of Lenz' drag) is a force...
« Reply #6 on: May 21, 2016, 06:47:46 PM »

#### Dog-One

• Hero Member
• Posts: 752
##### Re: After all the Lorentz Force (of Lenz' drag) is a force...
« Reply #7 on: May 21, 2016, 08:09:42 PM »
... where the inducing and induced field interactions are orthogonal, ...

Meaning at right angles to each other AND independent of each other correct?

This would seem at first sight to be non-intuitive.  However, I would bet my next paycheck Erfinder is correct.  He's done the work required to flesh this out.  It's very easy to fall into the trap of thinking these two fields are tied to each other in ways they are not.  And as soon as you do that, you simply the formulas down to something that will never allow you to achieve the results you are looking for.       The same thing is true with the original Maxwell equations--they are indeed complex, but contain the freedom to see the whole picture from whatever perspective you place yourself.

#### verpies

• Hero Member
• Posts: 3402
##### Re: After all the Lorentz Force (of Lenz' drag) is a force...
« Reply #8 on: May 24, 2016, 10:59:58 AM »
I see some times, what I think of as analogies between the curves in force x displacement integrations and the curves in a single wave form. I think this is especially interesting in the context of pulse motors.

Did you ever consider a force vs. displacement curve of a piece of a soft ferromagnetic material (not a permanent magnet) attracted into an energized shorted air-core ideal inductor ?   ... and how that curve differs when the same is attracted by a permanent magnet?

#### dieter

• Hero Member
• Posts: 968
##### Re: After all the Lorentz Force (of Lenz' drag) is a force...
« Reply #9 on: May 30, 2016, 01:45:51 AM »

Personally, I prefer to simplify things as much as possible. I imagine electrons as little refugees, hunted by magnetic invasion. As little dudes who love their homes so they return back home when the magnetic invaders back off.

Once you realize how simple it is, it becomes much easier to think out of the box.

Flux density is important, but I'd gladly give it away for inverted Lorentz force. However, within a small space both may be possible simultanously.

This experiment is as simple as amazing:
When you move a permanent magnet PM away from a coil L, you'll get, say, negative voltage. If you approach it, you'll get positive voltage. Now fix the PM at a certain distance, eg. 1inch, above the L. This gives you a static field in L, a bias.
Take a disc of iron, same radius as PM, eg. 1/8 inch thick, and put it between PM and L. The iron now becomes an instance of PM, showing the same polarity. But there's a big diffrence: If you move the Iron up, within the space between PM and L, the voltage is now positive, you move it down and get negative voltage. And yet, the iron disc is a copy of the PM. Think about it. Or even better, try it.

If we choose to limit our action to a small space between PM and L, we're getting both, high field strength and reversed Lorentz force.
Needless to say, the attraction of the disc by the PM can be nullified by mechanical compensation.

Implementing a rotating version might be trickier, as the polarity is no longer identical when approaching from the side. But I think it's still possible.

@Floor,
" ....
Also.... Some thing I have pondered is;  do two permanent magnet approaching one another (pole to
pole)  either attracting or repelling, induce electric currents each in the other ?  "

I think this depends on shape and conductivity. Two ring magnets of conducting material certainly do. And there are also eddy currents.

Regardless of whether PM or Coils, there is always the dilemma of selfinduction and recursive induction, but, in the end of the day, with every iteration this stuff gets weaker and weaker and therefor, what is really important is the first action and reaction. The action should be as effective as possible (field strength/flux density/chanche) and the reaction should be small or even better: reversed. (though that is considered impossible by "accepted theories")...

.

#### Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

##### Re: After all the Lorentz Force (of Lenz' drag) is a force...
« Reply #9 on: May 30, 2016, 01:45:51 AM »

#### shylo

• Sr. Member
• Posts: 475
##### Re: After all the Lorentz Force (of Lenz' drag) is a force...
« Reply #10 on: May 31, 2016, 11:16:30 AM »
and the reaction should be small or even better: reversed. (though that is considered impossible by "accepted theories")...

Hi Dieter, I think it would take more work to reverse this effect than it's worth.
Instead I'm catching this effect and using it to my advantage. Which in itself is actually reducing (not eliminating) it's negative affects.
artv

#### dieter

• Hero Member
• Posts: 968
##### Re: After all the Lorentz Force (of Lenz' drag) is a force...
« Reply #11 on: May 31, 2016, 01:31:21 PM »
Then you should really do the little experiment I just described.

I think it was Yogi Bear who said "50% is theory and 50% experimenting". Actually it may have been Albert Einstein, but Einstein, Yogi Bear, what's the diffrence.

I have just seen something that seems to be a rotational implementation of the principle on jl naudins' site.

#### shylo

• Sr. Member
• Posts: 475
##### Re: After all the Lorentz Force (of Lenz' drag) is a force...
« Reply #12 on: June 01, 2016, 01:46:00 AM »
Regardless of how you make the field change, the point is , there is a positive field and a negative field.
Trying to only collect one of the fields negates the collection of its' opposite.
You can take your pick , but conventional methods only allow the collection of one.
I'm trying and having some progress in collecting both aspects of the coils' actions, To me that is where the answer lies.
artv

#### dieter

• Hero Member
• Posts: 968
##### Re: After all the Lorentz Force (of Lenz' drag) is a force...
« Reply #13 on: June 04, 2016, 07:41:04 PM »
It seems to me we're all talking about apples, oranges and what not, but nobody talks about the same thing. Furthermore, nobody seems to understand what the others say.

For instance, I didn't understand what you just said. Negative and positive fields? Do you mean electric or magnetic polarity ?

IMHO magnetic polarity is not the point, because you can perfectly induce a current by altering the field STRENGTH only while remaining completely within ONE magnetic pole. Certainly the efficiency of induction can be doubled when the field strength is altered from max. south over zero to max. north field strength, but that isn't neccessary.

I wonder if anybody actually performed the very simple experiment I described, and if anybody actually understood the impact of the phenomenon, namely the reversal of the socalled "Lenz drag" into a "Lenz drive", which is the logical conclusion, as well as the experimental observation,

or...

whether we are all just ignorant narcists who refuse to try to understand anything other than our own funky theory.

Nothing personal, but I spend trillions of hours, trying to learn how stoff works.

So I repeat this essence: induced current depends ONLY on the amount of magnetic field strength CHANGE. When the Strength increases then the coil repells the source. When the strength decreases then the coil attracts the source.

And I have explained how to arrange a magnet that causes a decreasing strength when it is approaching towards the coil, and an increasing strength when it is moved away from the coil.

I can cut the steak down to bites, but you guys must chew them by your own.

I'd love to discuss this, but I am getting tired of having the impression of not being understood, so most likely RIP thread ...

A similar approach BTW. came from Greg Watson with his RMOG, as far as I understand.