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Author Topic: After all the Lorentz Force (of Lenz' drag) is a force...  (Read 5712 times)

Offline dieter

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After all the Lorentz Force (of Lenz' drag) is a force...
« on: May 20, 2016, 10:28:16 PM »
To those interested in and understanding induction, if you want to discuss / pick up the following, you're welcome.

Pity, that Lenz law, and noble the quest for the "lenzless" is. Thinking about all these, I came to some startling conclusions:

Normally, if we're approaching, say, a permantent magnet PM towards a coil, the field strength in the coil is increasing. We know the result, the current flow generates a secondary field that repelles the pm while approaching (=increasing field strength), and attracting it when it's moving away(=decreasing field strength).

So I realized, all that is needed is a magnet that causes a decreasing field strength when it is approaching, and an increasing field strength when it is moving away.

In response the coil would then, according to Lenz's law, attract the magnet when it is approaching, and repell it, when it is moving away. In other words, whatever direction the magnet is moving, its motion is accellerated by what is formerly known as "Lenz drag", probably best named "Reverse Lorentz Force Accelleration", or the "Marfurt Effect" if you prefer.

Of course, that would require a flowing current and furthermore, the heavier the attached load, the more selfaccelleration.

So to stop this selfrunner, eg. to prevent a runaway situation (not unthinkable with ferrite cores etc.), one had to unplug the load .

Such a fancy magnet, or pseudo magnet, would be great, wouldn't it? I wonder if anybody was every successful in implementing such a thing. Well, if I were, I seriously were in troubles, not knowing how to proceed.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy


Offline penno64

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Re: After all the Lorentz Force (of Lenz' drag) is a force...
« Reply #1 on: May 20, 2016, 11:28:47 PM »
=rtv3

Tinman has the device you describe but won't disclose.

Says it eats brushes just like lockridge.

Penno


Offline Floor

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Re: After all the Lorentz Force (of Lenz' drag) is a force...
« Reply #2 on: May 21, 2016, 12:30:54 AM »
@Dieter

I work with permanent magnets, because their interactions
are in some ways simple. Or should I say rather that the
bottom line of their I : O  is simpler. 

I see some times, what I think of as analogies between the curves in
force x displacement integrations and the curves in a single
wave form. I think this is especially interesting in the context of pulse motors.
...........................
If I am using these terms in the right place.... as I recall and put very simply....
reluctance is current lagging behind voltage while reactance gives us the back spike.

There is also some kind of analogy in the resistance to acceleration of a
mass against inertia and a coils reluctance... and the resistance to DEceleration
(momentum) of a mass due to inertia and a coils reactance. 
............................
This of course all relates to the expansion and contraction of  magnetic "fields" giving rise
to electric currents which in turn give rise to secondary magnetic fields, and so on.
...........................
I have been working with a hypothesis that near 90 deg. interactions (and although they may largely negate momentum) may lead to increased cop if not OU, under certain conditions.

This hypothesis may or may not add to your bag of tricks in accomplishing what you suggest to
explore.
.................
Also.... Some thing I have pondered is;  do two permanent magnet approaching one another (pole to
pole)  either attracting or repelling, induce electric currents each in the other ?


Thank you very much for your time
                floor

Offline shylo

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Re: After all the Lorentz Force (of Lenz' drag) is a force...
« Reply #3 on: May 21, 2016, 10:28:18 AM »
Hi Dieter, "Normally, if we're approaching, say, a permantent magnet PM towards a coil, the field strength in the coil is increasing. We know the result, the current flow generates a secondary field that repelles the pm while approaching (=increasing field strength), and attracting it when it's moving away(=decreasing field strength).

Isn't it more like an approaching magnet creates current flow in such a direction to create an electro-magnet of the same polarity and this is the repulsion, and after TDC the current reverses, thus creating an opposite pole which is now pulling the leaving magnet back? Also all of this only happens if there is a load attached to the coils leads.
artv


Offline Erfinder

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Re: After all the Lorentz Force (of Lenz' drag) is a force...
« Reply #4 on: May 21, 2016, 12:32:17 PM »
In a system designed to serve as an exciter, where the inducing and induced field interactions are orthogonal, where one assumes that the induced circuit, under "normal" circumstances is configured series cancelling, and the inducing circuit is from a magnetics standpoint "unidirectional", an inversion of Lenz's law can be experienced when the excited circuit is placed under load.


That which is being suggested here has nothing to do with anything that anyone has demonstrated nor discussed on this or any other forum.


Regards

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: After all the Lorentz Force (of Lenz' drag) is a force...
« Reply #4 on: May 21, 2016, 12:32:17 PM »
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Offline ALVARO_CS

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Re: After all the Lorentz Force (of Lenz' drag) is a force...
« Reply #5 on: May 21, 2016, 01:29:22 PM »
In a system designed to serve as an exciter, where the inducing and induced field interactions are orthogonal, where one assumes that the induced circuit, under "normal" circumstances is configured series cancelling, and the inducing circuit is from a magnetics standpoint "unidirectional", an inversion of Lenz's law can be experienced when the excited circuit is placed under load.

Erfinder:
Does that "inversion" means attraction force in  magnet to coil before TDC and repulsion after ?
I think (intuitively) that there is a clue in that word "orthogonal" (from a geometric point of view)

Offline Erfinder

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Re: After all the Lorentz Force (of Lenz' drag) is a force...
« Reply #6 on: May 21, 2016, 03:18:37 PM »
Erfinder:
Does that "inversion" means attraction force in  magnet to coil before TDC and repulsion after ?
I think (intuitively) that there is a clue in that word "orthogonal" (from a geometric point of view)


Inversion as I use the term relates specifically to the relation that the induced potential has to the applied.  Here what I am suggesting is that systems be designed so that the induced voltage augments the applied, versus the present the present situation where the induced opposes the applied. Work should be a result of the induced and applied summing, versus the well established difference model.


In my experience it's attraction and repulsion, simultaneous, at/from TDC.  In this scenario, TDC is the point where the induced voltage is max, as opposed to conventional systems where we find the induced is max just before and just after TDC.  The latter I consider an abomination, as in it we are dealing with what could be considered as two voltage nodes on either side of a current node.  Such systems, while useful to a very limited degree, are almost completely useless when viewed from the perspective of the things we identify with as fields. On the other hand, when we align our thinking and geometry with that of the things we identify with as fields, and establish relation which lead to the production of what can be considered as two current nodes on either side of a voltage node, everything begins to align and work in harmony.  My general rule of thumb can be summed up as follows... the point of maximum flux change must be coincident with the point of maximum flux density at TDC. 


I am suggesting we familiarize ourselves with a system where maximum opposition to change in flux can serve as substitute for the point of maximum flux density, or augment the same.


When we review the induced and inducer and their intimate relation long enough, we find that the changing field responsible for the induced, and the induced are one and the same thing.  We begin to understand and or consider the induced as being simply a mirror image of the inducer operating within and or about a brand new medium.  The projection of the image into the mirror and the reflection of the image from the mirror to the source have no negative associations. 


We are taught by the system how to be free of opposition.  Greed, ignorance and arrogance keeps us from comprehending the system provided solution to our present problems. 


Regards

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: After all the Lorentz Force (of Lenz' drag) is a force...
« Reply #6 on: May 21, 2016, 03:18:37 PM »
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Offline penno64

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Re: After all the Lorentz Force (of Lenz' drag) is a force...
« Reply #7 on: May 21, 2016, 05:32:12 PM »
In a system designed to serve as an exciter, where the inducing and induced field interactions are orthogonal, where one assumes that the induced circuit, under "normal" circumstances is configured series cancelling, and the inducing circuit is from a magnetics standpoint "unidirectional", an inversion of Lenz's law can be experienced when the excited circuit is placed under load.


That which is being suggested here has nothing to do with anything that anyone has demonstrated nor discussed on this or any other forum.


Regards

Oh yeah -

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCnGwp_xxmyJiY-r1oshJn9Q

Offline Erfinder

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Re: After all the Lorentz Force (of Lenz' drag) is a force...
« Reply #8 on: May 21, 2016, 05:51:24 PM »
Oh yeah -

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCnGwp_xxmyJiY-r1oshJn9Q


If you were serious, you would have posted this link.... and still would have missed the point.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=157Zno2T5LY


Regards

Offline ALVARO_CS

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Re: After all the Lorentz Force (of Lenz' drag) is a force...
« Reply #9 on: May 21, 2016, 06:47:46 PM »
Erfinder: thank you for your substantial answer.
It will be saved. (and studied)
cheers

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: After all the Lorentz Force (of Lenz' drag) is a force...
« Reply #9 on: May 21, 2016, 06:47:46 PM »
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Offline Erfinder

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Re: After all the Lorentz Force (of Lenz' drag) is a force...
« Reply #10 on: May 21, 2016, 06:55:23 PM »
Erfinder: thank you for your substantial answer.
It will be saved. (and studied)
cheers


Until sense can be made of it, assuming sense can be made of it, its just words.......

Offline Dog-One

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Re: After all the Lorentz Force (of Lenz' drag) is a force...
« Reply #11 on: May 21, 2016, 08:09:42 PM »
... where the inducing and induced field interactions are orthogonal, ...

Meaning at right angles to each other AND independent of each other correct?

This would seem at first sight to be non-intuitive.  However, I would bet my next paycheck Erfinder is correct.  He's done the work required to flesh this out.  It's very easy to fall into the trap of thinking these two fields are tied to each other in ways they are not.  And as soon as you do that, you simply the formulas down to something that will never allow you to achieve the results you are looking for.    ;)   The same thing is true with the original Maxwell equations--they are indeed complex, but contain the freedom to see the whole picture from whatever perspective you place yourself.


Offline Erfinder

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Re: After all the Lorentz Force (of Lenz' drag) is a force...
« Reply #12 on: May 21, 2016, 08:29:52 PM »
Meaning at right angles to each other AND independent of each other correct?

This would seem at first sight to be non-intuitive.  However, I would bet my next paycheck Erfinder is correct.  He's done the work required to flesh this out.  It's very easy to fall into the trap of thinking these two fields are tied to each other in ways they are not.  And as soon as you do that, you simply the formulas down to something that will never allow you to achieve the results you are looking for.    ;)   The same thing is true with the original Maxwell equations--they are indeed complex, but contain the freedom to see the whole picture from whatever perspective you place yourself.


Aye!  Right angles, interdependent versus independent, the two sides of the whole are inseparable.    What two sides....? 


Sweet reading you here.  Our last exchange inspired me a bit....one of my latest machines is starting to look like one of those multi-layered coil configs that one sees in your neck of the woods.


Regards

Offline Erfinder

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Re: After all the Lorentz Force (of Lenz' drag) is a force...
« Reply #13 on: May 22, 2016, 01:15:18 PM »

Aye!  Right angles, interdependent versus independent, the two sides of the whole are inseparable.    What two sides....? 


Sweet reading you here.  Our last exchange inspired me a bit....one of my latest machines is starting to look like one of those multi-layered coil configs that one sees in your neck of the woods.


Regards


Suggestion.....


Try using beat frequency generation as a means for subverting the negative effects associated with generating current. 


More fuel for the fire. 

Added....image of the output wave produced by the generator.


Regards


Offline verpies

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Re: After all the Lorentz Force (of Lenz' drag) is a force...
« Reply #14 on: May 24, 2016, 10:59:58 AM »
I see some times, what I think of as analogies between the curves in force x displacement integrations and the curves in a single wave form. I think this is especially interesting in the context of pulse motors.

Did you ever consider a force vs. displacement curve of a piece of a soft ferromagnetic material (not a permanent magnet) attracted into an energized shorted air-core ideal inductor ?   ... and how that curve differs when the same is attracted by a permanent magnet?

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: After all the Lorentz Force (of Lenz' drag) is a force...
« Reply #14 on: May 24, 2016, 10:59:58 AM »

 

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