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Author Topic: Leyden jar dangerous?  (Read 7014 times)

Offline sm0ky2

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Re: Leyden jar dangerous?
« Reply #15 on: February 01, 2017, 03:15:59 AM »
@TK


I hate to get into semantical discussions with you
Especially since your expertise in this area
far exceeds my own.


I must state now that the Voss machine is indeed
An A/C device.


It may not appear that way because the actual freq.
Of the signal can be exponentially higher than the
Discharge rate of the machine.


I had techs at my house for over a week testing this
stuff trying to figure a way to convert it.
Which we did with, what I would call partial success.


The negative (resinous) spark is 180-degrees out of
phase to the positive ( vitreous) impulse.
These are microwave frequencies, compared to the
100-200Hz discharge of the machine.


When I speak of "frequency" with this machine I am
generally referring to the discharge rate.
But the HV carries its own freq. components
(I use the plural term because there are more than one freq.)


For you to kill someone with your jars is probably an easy task
However, for a beginner such as myself, even the largest potentials
That I can achieve would only kill a small insect.
I have breached 700kV rated insulation with my Voss
And machines not much larger than mine used to run MV X-ray
devices.


One thing I have learned about Leyden jars is that the potential
Is not the same as the capacitance
Potential has a lot to do with the physical size of the plates in the jar
Whereas capacitance is more closely related to the distance between
the plates and how well they are insulated.


My high capacitance Leyden jars take a lot longer to charge
Than my lower capacitance jars, that can reach higher potentials
And do so much more quickly.


The 10-gallon bucket caps, for example, can be deadly with the right
machine. A Voss like mine takes about 30-35 seconds to charge those
up to anything dangerous.
Generally speaking, the average person will make a capacitor out of laminent
or a small glass jar.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Leyden jar dangerous?
« Reply #15 on: February 01, 2017, 03:15:59 AM »

Offline sm0ky2

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Re: Leyden jar dangerous?
« Reply #16 on: February 01, 2017, 05:47:45 AM »
Using a wooly-socked human body as a reference point
The average human capacitance is 100-200pf (some as high as 400)
And a good walk across a rug can charge you to 30-50kV


That gives the wool socked human and the silk socked human
A potential of 100kV across two 200-pf capacitors.
I socked myself and others extensively as a child, yet never
managed to kill myself or others.


Estimates put the "death zone" around 1,350 microjoules.
That is a conservative estimate for a 'weak human'.
Most people will be able to take a bigger shock than that.


You can calculate the energy of your Leyden Jar using THIs
Formula:


https://www.princeton.edu/ssp/joseph-henry-project/oscillatory-discharge/leyden-jar/


And this here:


http://nuclear.unh.edu/~maurik/Phys408_Spring2003_Holtrop/Lectures/Lecture27/ConceptQ27_sol.pdf








Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Leyden jar dangerous?
« Reply #17 on: February 01, 2017, 06:21:59 AM »
Well, I tried, anyway.

Your Voss machine is DC. You have substantial inductance in your wiring. When your capacitance discharges across the spark gap, you will have AC ringing due to the capacitance and inductance making a very high frequency tank circuit. It is definitely possible that this ringing is in the "microwave" frequency range. This does not mean your machine is AC. Your machine can charge a capacitor and keep it charged until breakdown, without using a rectifier diode. This proves that it is producing DC. The "AC" ringing is only produced during the actual spark discharge and is a result of the capacitance of the machine and the inductance of the wiring.

The spacings of the parts in your Voss machine cannot possibly produce 700 kV. If your machine has breached insulation rated that high, it must have found a crack or other defect of lower resistance and poked through there. What insulation are you talking about, exactly? Don't forget that spheres of large size have the highest breakdown voltage and any other geometry (flat plates, points, corners, etc) will break down at lower voltages over a given gap distance. Or looking at it another way, the sphere gap produces the _smallest_ gap for a given high voltage, and other geometries will break down over a much greater distance at a given voltage. And 700kV will breakdown over a distance of 25-30 cm between large spheres, and over a much greater distance between electrodes of other geometries. This means that the oppositely charged areas of _any_ electrostatic or even electrodynamic machine must be _greater_ than that or the voltage will spark across. Obviously your Voss machine doesn't have its parts separated by that much. When I demonstrate a 27 cm spark between large spherical electrodes on one of my Bonetti machines, that is reaching 600 kV for sure -- and all parts of the machine carrying opposite charges are separated by more than that spacing, otherwise the spark would happen where the parts are closest and would happen at lower voltages.

Yes, Voss and other machines can reach higher voltages IF they are properly constructed and isolated for that high voltage. Yours is not. Take a look at some systems operating in the MV range to drive xray machines, you will see that they are large, that they have very smooth and large curvatures, that they are operating in pressurized gas environments for further insulation.

The capacitance of a capacitor depends on the area of the plates, the spacing between the plates, and the permittivity of the material separating the plates. The formula, in case you are interested, is
C = ε(A/d)
where A is the area and d the separation of the plates. There are many internet references available on this topic. The potential (voltage) that a capacitor can withstand, or store, is determined by the breakdown of the dielectric (presuming that leakage from edges, etc, is eliminated by proper design and isolation.) The area of the plates has nothing to do with the potential (voltage) that can be stored on a capacitor. Tiny caps can withstand very high voltage, and huge caps can breakdown at tiny voltages, all depending on the dielectric and the spacing. Do not confuse voltage (aka potential) with charge quantity; the same amount of charge can produce a high voltage if confined to a small space, or a low voltage if distributed in a large space. Voltage is charge pressure, from like charges repelling like, or charge tension, from unlike charges attracting. (same thing, different sides of the same coin.)
http://www.electronics-tutorials.ws/capacitor/cap_1.html

There is no such thing as "resinous" or "vitreous" impulse. These are ancient names for positive and negative electrical charges. In our ordinary environment we only deal with electrons (negative charges) and "lack of electrons" (positive charges, holes). We _never_ see "naked positive charges" unless we are working with protons directly. A "positively charged" thing has fewer than normal electrons, a "negatively charged" thing has excess electrons. A spark consists of a plasma produced by a stream of negative charges -- electrons -- moving from the negatively charged item to the positively charged item, and to a lesser extent, positive ions (air gas molecules stripped of one or more electrons) moving in the other direction. Yes, when you have some inductance along with capacitance, a spark will reverse polarity many times per second as the tank circuit rings down in voltage. This means the polarity of the gap electrodes alternates back and forth, positive and negative, at the ring frequency. Yes, the currents are 180 degrees out of phase then, going back and forth across the gap, possibly at GHz frequencies if capacitance and inductance are small. The energy sloshes back and forth between capacitance (electric field) and inductance (magnetic field) and a little bit dissipates at each cycle until the voltage drops to the point where it can no longer break down the gap. Yes, a spark gap also produces broadband noise in addition to its tank ringdown frequency.

Do what you like, interpret things however you like, but please don't mislead people into thinking that Leyden jars charged to hundreds of kV are going to be "safe".


Some 500+ kV sparks:

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Leyden jar dangerous?
« Reply #18 on: February 01, 2017, 07:45:16 AM »
Using a small neon (NE-2) bulb to find the polarity of an ES generator:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DpoTGdbcUzE

The VDG machine polarity is determined by the materials of the belt and the top and bottom rollers, depending on their positions on the triboelectric scale. The pingpong ball itself changes polarity each time it strikes the box endplates and is repelled by the one it just struck and is attracted to the one it is about to strike. The ball in this case is actually a current-carrier! This is a "model" of some of what happens in an electrostatic spark gap when an actual spark occurs.

Offline Cherryman

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Re: Leyden jar dangerous?
« Reply #19 on: February 01, 2017, 12:11:46 PM »

Tnx TK for weighing in.


Back to my power supply strubbles...   

Still something is off...


I can not get anything to rotate, even not a lightweight cup with some alufoil on it, with almost no friction.
It works when i near it with a PVC pipe , wrubbed with a cloth, it turns easaly.
But with the plasma ball power supply..  Nothing wants to move.


I tried plates, brushes, wirepoints..  al i can think off.


Could the Plasma ball be also AC HV ??????


Here is a picture, someone capable of determine the output is DC or AC ?
(Input is 12V DC )








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Re: Leyden jar dangerous?
« Reply #19 on: February 01, 2017, 12:11:46 PM »
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Offline Grumage

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Re: Leyden jar dangerous?
« Reply #20 on: February 01, 2017, 12:32:28 PM »
Dear Cherryman.

Yes it's an AC output in the low kHz range. Try attaching an HV diode from a microwave oven.

If you haven't damaged your glass ball try putting a strip of Aluminium foil on the glass and pick up with the diode from it.

Now, to reiterate TK, this electric stuff is VERY DANGEROUS please be careful.

Kind regards, Graham.

Offline Cherryman

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Re: Leyden jar dangerous?
« Reply #21 on: February 01, 2017, 12:52:33 PM »
Dear Cherryman.

Yes it's an AC output in the low kHz range. Try attaching an HV diode from a microwave oven.

If you haven't damaged your glass ball try putting a strip of Aluminium foil on the glass and pick up with the diode from it.

Now, to reiterate TK, this electric stuff is VERY DANGEROUS please be careful.

Kind regards, Graham.


Thank you Grumage,


AC also,  hahah..   days of frustration suddenly makes sense.


I was almost gonna make a VDG or something to get a charge and give up on the electronics because i get easy charge results just with some pvc and a cloth.


I have a broken down Microwave, lets see if i can find that Diode.
If I remember correctly its the one straight on the major capacitor?  ( Yes, I decharge that first )


You prefer the glass ball and the alufoil  in between as an extra safety ?


I did learn a lot along all these attempts and i also thank you for you extra safety warning.


RK

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Leyden jar dangerous?
« Reply #21 on: February 01, 2017, 12:52:33 PM »
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Offline pomodoro

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Re: Leyden jar dangerous?
« Reply #22 on: February 01, 2017, 01:39:16 PM »
Tesla coils are safe simply because they are RF sparks, not DC or low freq AC. RF at the kHz range  travels on the skin and doesn't penetrate the body. I've got a hand held Tesla that gives strong  one inch sparks and it tickles, but the one inch induction coil sparked at 50Hz with a cap charged to 500v at the primary nearly killed me. Body tensed up and couldnt move, and jolts kept coming. Both sparks look the same to the naked eye. Don't F@@k with HV DC  or low freq HV AC. :o

Offline Cherryman

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Negative Ion Generator
« Reply #23 on: February 01, 2017, 02:57:06 PM »
I could not find that diode : (  .. It must be somewhere in a box when i dismantled the microwave )


The thing i thought would be the simplest about my experiment, starts to become the most difficult ; )

But.. another option maybe.

I picked up this little beauty at the second hand shop:
A air cleaner with a negative ion generator inside.
Are those AC also ?  ( before I demolish another thing )

Can I use that?





Offline sm0ky2

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Re: Leyden jar dangerous?
« Reply #24 on: February 01, 2017, 03:24:31 PM »
Semiconductor grade capacitors can store a lot of energy
So I am not going to say that it is not 'possible' to set up
A circuit to an ESG that could be potentially harmful.


That being said, I cannot seem to find a single validated
reference to death by ESD. Every case I have found
involved some other factor- fire or explosions caused by gas ignition
pace makers or other medical electronics failing, etc.
The average home-made Leyden jar holds 1/1000th of
What passes through your body from a Tazer or stun-gun
Both of which are considered "non-lethal".


The average (pair of) Leyden jars holds less than 1/8000th
Of the energy going through a defibrillator (thing that restarts
your heart at the hospital).


It is deadly? After 2,000 years of experimentation, there is
little to no historical record of ESD doing any more than
startling an unsuspecting target.


If anyone has reference to a death caused by electrostatics
It would be interesting to read about.


1MV @ 100pf = 0.1A for 1 millisecond??
(average current throughout the discharge)
It is doubtful that a home experimenter is going to achieve
even something that large.


To put that into perspective, an averaging of lightning strikes
(Which are only sometimes deadly) estimates roughly
100,000 Amps for 10-30 microseconds.
An ESD from a cloud the size of your house represents a clear
and present danger. A small piece of aluminum on your desk...
Not so much.


The word from ESG authorities worldwide, has thus far been the
same comment to me ( although sometimes worded differently)
people that have spent their entire lives he's working with static
electricity have said basically the same thing.
They have all taken and given shocks of ungodly potential
With no long-lasting ill effects. They have never seen nor
heard of an actual death caused directly by ESD.
From my conversations with them, their labs and offices
we're much better equipped to produce and store these
charges than anything I am capable of at home.


I am not trying to undermine anyone's safety here.
You should always use precautions and do not intentionally
Shock yourselves or others with experimental HV ESD's.
But the danger is being grossly over exaggerated here.


I can find lots of references to people drowning in a glass of
water or a bowl of soup. But no death by ESD?
If anyone has a reference to something like this, please
share with the group.


Now - electronic driver circuits that produce HV
Most certainly ARE dangerous!!!
So if you are toying with NST's or plasma circuits
Please be careful.


I have no estimated voltage range of my particular modified
Voss machine. I can punch holes in rated electronics grade
Electrostatic Insulation, I can measure a spark gap over 1ft
Through open air.
However, even with a 100kV electrostatic meter, the needle
goes crazy just walking into a small room that has been
Ionizing for a couple hours.
Impedance of air at its' ground state can be estimated,
But when the same air is partially ionized, the impedance
can change drastically. So for me, the size of the spark gap
Is not an accurate indicator of the true voltage potential.


I've hit myself with 12 Leyden jars, (6 &6 in parallel)
With no harm. These were large size Mason jars
Lined with aluminum inside and out. With and without
Salt water (different salts were experimented with)


My neighbor down the street shocks himself every time
he is here while I have the machine running.
I use him as my "volt meter".
He tells me when the jolts get more intense as I adjust
The machine.


If I thought this machine could be even remotely harmful
I wouldn't allow him to do this.


The 10-gallon bucket Leyden jar that has been going around
the internet is stated to be dangerous. These can reliably
charge upwards to 50kv (some reports are higher).
However, their capacitance is much larger than a small glass
Jar. So there may be some truth to the danger of a jar that size.
This is still significantly less than a Tazer and take some time to
charge up.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Leyden jar dangerous?
« Reply #24 on: February 01, 2017, 03:24:31 PM »
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Offline sm0ky2

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Re: Negative Ion Generator
« Reply #25 on: February 01, 2017, 03:45:55 PM »
I could not find that diode : (  .. It must be somewhere in a box when i dismantled the microwave )


The thing i thought would be the simplest about my experiment, starts to become the most difficult ; )

But.. another option maybe.

I picked up this little beauty at the second hand shop:
A air cleaner with a negative ion generator inside.
Are those AC also ?  ( before I demolish another thing )

Can I use that?


At the risk of not knowing exactly which circuit they used
I can tell you that (most) ion-air cleaners have a rectification
That makes them DC. One plate is charged, to ionize the air
The other is grounded back through the circuit.
Which one you have (+ or -) depends on who made it.
These were in production long before the science that supports
them was released.
 So earlier ( and low budget) models charge +
These are useless as "air cleaners", just a fancy ( sometimes loud)
Decoration.
The ones that clean the air release - ions.
Samsung was at the forefront of this technology and has available
Lots of data about how and why they work.


Either type of ion air cleaner should be able to separate charges
You may have to locate the opposite terminal and separate it from
The circuit so you have a + and a - terminal.
You could however only use half of then potential and spark to earth
ground, without modifications to the air cleaner.

Offline Grumage

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Re: Leyden jar dangerous?
« Reply #26 on: February 01, 2017, 03:54:12 PM »
Dear sm0ky2.

Having spent a large part of my working life within the Supply industry, HV distribution, I think that any warnings about High Voltage electricity should be taken seriously. I don't doubt your post above but the simple matter is that AC derived electricity can be lethal.

Let's just " Play safe " !!   :)

Kind regards, Graham.

Here's my V d G.

Oh, and these are " cheap as chips "  !!

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/DC-12V-to-20000V-High-voltage-Electrostatic-Generator-Negative-Ion-Generator-MO-/152382512125?hash=item237ab49bfd:g:PUEAAOSwnHZYbLz~

Offline Cherryman

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Re: Negative Ion Generator
« Reply #27 on: February 01, 2017, 04:16:44 PM »

At the risk of not knowing exactly which circuit they used
I can tell you that (most) ion-air cleaners have a rectification
That makes them DC. One plate is charged, to ionize the air
The other is grounded back through the circuit.
Which one you have (+ or -) depends on who made it.
These were in production long before the science that supports
them was released.
 So earlier ( and low budget) models charge +
These are useless as "air cleaners", just a fancy ( sometimes loud)
Decoration.
The ones that clean the air release - ions.
Samsung was at the forefront of this technology and has available
Lots of data about how and why they work.


Either type of ion air cleaner should be able to separate charges
You may have to locate the opposite terminal and separate it from
The circuit so you have a + and a - terminal.
You could however only use half of then potential and spark to earth
ground, without modifications to the air cleaner.


Tnx. 


When i put my electroscope in the airflow they plates are separating when i activate the ionizer,
Do electroscopes display only a positive charge, or also negative ?
Although the folder stated negative ions..
And yes, i try to do some reading up as well, always nice to learn.


Edit:


I see an electroscope does not read out polarity, only charge
If I only had that HV resistor.. I could try TK's polarity methode with the neon

http://www.physicstutorials.org/home/electrostatics/electroscope

Offline sm0ky2

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Re: Leyden jar dangerous?
« Reply #28 on: February 01, 2017, 05:04:27 PM »
@TK


I'm not sure which version of my Voss you are referring to
when you talk about the 'spacing', as I have refurbished
the upper (collector) disk about 30 times with different
size plates, number of plates, and spacing between them.


With larger plates, higher charges are collected by the plates.
(With no Leyden jar) but at a lower rate of collection.
Smaller plates hold smaller charges but they pass the collector
brushes more often so the rate of collection increases accordingly.
I find that the induction process itself becomes more intense with
larger plates.


During no configuration did I find an upper limit to the stored
charge collected by the Leyden jars. The more jars, the more charge,
however, it take a more time to charge up larger capacitors.
Every increase in capacitance results in an increase in potential without
Arc-over.
I did arc once, but upon examination, it was 2 brushes coming into close
proximity to the same plate, not the distance between plates, that caused
the arc over.
With the Whimshurst machine, arc-over is eminent once charge attained
exceeds the impedance between any two plates. This is because of the way
the two different machines induce and collect charges in different manners.


Whimshurst induces and collects in consecutive order. This places opposite
charges within reach of one another across the surface of the disk.
In fact, each consecutive plate holds a slightly different charge then the next
or previous, resulting in a charge gradient around the circle.
This is the cause of the arc-over.


Voss collects, THEN induces, which leaves only a small area of opposing charges
in close contact. If you follow the charges around the Voss, you can see that
the closest point between two opposing charges exists between the collector
And neutral brushes. A distance which is adjustable.
After leaving the neutral brush, the plates are induced like charge to the next
plate, and they travel TO areas of like charge for collection.
The Voss is nothing like the Whimshurst in regards to maximum potential and
plate spacing.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Charge stored on a metal plate is restricted by the surface area
of the plate.
Take a single charged plate, charge it up as much as it
will hold, then discharge it to a smaller plate.
The smaller plate will have less final Q than the large plate.
When Q is much less than maximum for the area, capacitance
can be estimated by using a known Q, and the distance between points.
As we approach maximum Q for the plate, as occurs in an ESG,
this estimate falls apart.


For this reason I find your estimate (A/d) to not hold accurate, with respect to
a large Leyden jar.  This is because the d is much smaller than the assumed
Square root of A
You can fact check me on that, but the capacitance equation
needs to be taken in its' full form, not the estimated shortcut we use
In standard electronics.

Also I noticed in all of your videos that your machines all operate in
the primary mode. Have you tried lowering external capacitance to
bring them into the secondary mode of operation?
What I refer to as "direct output"?
This occurs when external capacitance is lower than the machines'
internal capacitance.  It is quite a notable distinction when it occurs.
Not just in frequency but the nature of the discharge.
Color, luminescence, applied force to another Q, etc.




Offline sm0ky2

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Re: Negative Ion Generator
« Reply #29 on: February 01, 2017, 05:11:53 PM »

Tnx. 


When i put my electroscope in the airflow they plates are separating when i activate the ionizer,
Do electroscopes display only a positive charge, or also negative ?
Although the folder stated negative ions..
And yes, i try to do some reading up as well, always nice to learn.


Edit:


I see an electroscope does not read out polarity, only charge
If I only had that HV resistor.. I could try TK's polarity methode with the neon

http://www.physicstutorials.org/home/electrostatics/electroscope


You "can" use an electroscope to determine polarity.
But to do so you need an object of known charge.
Such as a tube t.v. Screen or a balloon on your hair.


1) charge electroscope so the leaves separate
2) bring electroscope terminal near known charged object
3) if the leaves further separate, the charges are the same
     if the leaves collapse (then reseparate), they are opposite.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Negative Ion Generator
« Reply #29 on: February 01, 2017, 05:11:53 PM »

 

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