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Author Topic: Pressure sensitive dielectric  (Read 2371 times)

Offline webby1

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Pressure sensitive dielectric
« on: May 08, 2016, 04:22:53 PM »
If you have a capacitor that has a pressures sensitive dielectric,,

Can you change the capacitance of the capacitor by changing the pressure of the dielectric?

Would this change in pressure and capacitance change the charge value on the capacitor plates?

In other words,,

Could I charge a capacitor to 10V and then change the dielectric value with pressure to increase the voltage that the cap is charged to?

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Offline webby1

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Re: Pressure sensitive dielectric
« Reply #1 on: May 08, 2016, 07:54:18 PM »
I took a cap that looks like this

http://agen.kudo.co.id/shop/product/105k450-r235-1uf450vdc-1000nf-rubycon-film-capacitorkapasitor-12x15x27mm-3672971/

mine has 632 after the r

I hooked up my meter and using a pair of vice-grips when I clamp down my meter read 0.022V and then while held it slowly went down to 0.0V, then when I released the vice-grips the meter read -0.022V and slowly came back up to 0.0V

If this was a liquid dielectric,, would increasing the liquid pressure do the same thing?


Offline thx1138

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Re: Pressure sensitive dielectric
« Reply #2 on: May 16, 2016, 04:08:50 AM »
It's not the pressure that affects the voltage but the change in distance between the plates. Remember that the charge is held in the dielectric. The plates are just there to get the charge in and out of the device. How well they do that is dependent on how well the plates contact the dielectric. That's why aluminum foil capacitors have a roughened surface - to create a larger surface area and therefore more contact area.

If you have a charged capacitor and you squeeze it together you are moving the plates closer together and therefore increasing the charge density between those plates. It's an interesting phenomena. Given the proper materials you can also change the voltage between the plates to increase the force the charge exerts against the plates and vice versa - increase the force on the dielectric and increase the voltage.

More interestingly, it's a non-linear process. A hundred-fold change in compression can result in a thousand fold increase in voltage. At 1 hour 1 minute, 1 minute, and 27 seconds in the following video the process is explained. It was discovered by John Trump at MIT. Interestingly, he was one of the people who examined Tesla's papers for the government after Tesla died and told the government there wasn't anything of significance in them. He supposedly discovered this phenomena in the 1950's. If you find the part at 01:01:27 interesting you might want to watch the whole video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_HW6wY60dJI

As to your question about using a liquid, your results would be dependent on the chemistry of the chosen liquid. At it's foundation, chemistry is driven by electromagnetism. Electromagnetism is the basis of chemical bonds and why energy is released when those bonds are broken. Surprisingly, there is still a lot to learn about simple old water.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-T7tCMUDXU

I recently ran into some compounds that might be very interesting to experiment with in this regard. Lead Titanate (PbTiO3) and Barium Titanate (BaTiO3) are both piezoelectric and ferroelectric at the same time.

Ferroelectricity is a property of certain materials that have a spontaneous electric polarization that can be reversed by the application of an external electric field and piezoelectric materials generate an electric field from physical stress. "Spontaneous electric polarization" is another way to describe charge separation.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barium_titanate
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead_titanate

Barium seems to show up in a number of materials in OU devices in the form of barium ferrite cores, etc. Titanium Dioxide has some interesting properties on its own in its response to UV light which is just high frequency electromagnetism. So combined with Barium, Titanium Dioxide makes an even more interesting material.

The trick, of course, with any of these processes is regauging - getting the system back to its initial state so the process can be continuously cycled. One of the interesting things about Titanium Dioxide when used with UV light to purify water is that the Titanium Dioxide is not consumed and it will perform its function in that process as long as UV light is present. So given Titanium Dioxide, UV light, and polluted water we seem to have a perpetual motion machine if we want to consider the system a machine.

I hope this provides some food for thought. Keep in mind that the interesting things happen at the interface of two materials, not so much in the materials themselves.

Offline Vladokv

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Re: Pressure sensitive dielectric
« Reply #3 on: May 17, 2016, 10:53:51 AM »
Your video about water IS amassing. It will keep me thinking about it whole day. Especially that hollow tube experiment


Offline webby1

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Re: Pressure sensitive dielectric
« Reply #4 on: May 18, 2016, 12:14:17 AM »
Thanks for the links thx1138.

I am not talking about moving the plates but rather changing the value of capacitance between them.

If a cap has a large capacitance it would be easier to send in a few coulombs of charge separation than it would be for the same coulombs with a much lower capacitance.  Keeping the area of coverage the same but somehow having the dielectric between the plates change in its ability to function as a capacitive enabling substance.

If this substance also maintained a fluid property of not being compressible would also be a desired thing.

If you could imagine two such caps sitting side by side,, they both have screws that enter into the fluid chamber so that you could screw the screw in and increase pressure and or screw the screw out and decrease the fluid pressure.

You start by charging the larger capacitance one up,, hook your electronic device between them and then reverse the screw positions so that the charged one is at a lower capacitance value and the other one is at a high value,, as the charge migrates over to the now larger capacitance you can use the energy,, then when the system is balanced back out you again reverse the screws.

Charge it once and use it many times.

The cost to work the screws,, if using a non-compressible fluid,, would be next to nothing.

Without the "magic" fluid the mechanical cost would be high but not undo-able,, and we do have things sort of like that already with static charge devices that you rub to charge and then separate to increase the charge.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Pressure sensitive dielectric
« Reply #4 on: May 18, 2016, 12:14:17 AM »
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Offline thx1138

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Re: Pressure sensitive dielectric
« Reply #5 on: July 27, 2016, 12:31:45 PM »
I am not talking about moving the plates but rather changing the value of capacitance between them.
When you say "changing the value of capacitance" do you mean amount of charge? Polarization can change the apparent "value of capacitance" such that stronger polarization appears to be more capacitance and less polarization appears to be less capacitance. That is achievable in ferroelectric materials. The amount of charge, however, does not change.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferroelectricity
http://www.ferrodevices.com/1/297/capacitors_and_devices.asp
http://www.ferrodevices.com/1/297/introduction_to_ferroelectrics.asp

Quote
If you could imagine two such caps sitting side by side,, they both have screws that enter into the fluid chamber so that you could screw the screw in and increase pressure and or screw the screw out and decrease the fluid pressure.

The cost to work the screws,, if using a non-compressible fluid,, would be next to nothing.
That basically describes piezoelectricity. Think of a piezoelectric igniter such as found on gas ranges or furnaces. Pressing down on the igniter button essentially cocks a hammer that when released strikes the piezoelectric material, the deformation of the material by the hammer striking it causing the release of electrical energy across a spark gap to igniter the gas. The amount of work to  that hammer, however, is not trivial.



Quote
You start by charging the larger capacitance one up,, hook your electronic device between them and then reverse the screw positions so that the charged one is at a lower capacitance value and the other one is at a high value,, as the charge migrates over to the now larger capacitance you can use the energy,, then when the system is balanced back out you again reverse the screws.

Charge it once and use it many times.
When your device between the capacitors is energized it will consume (heat, leakage, etc) some of the charge that will need to be replenished.  When the system balances out again it will be balanced but at a lower charge state. So it won't be able to be used over and over again without being replenished by the amount consumed.

Offline webby1

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Re: Pressure sensitive dielectric
« Reply #6 on: July 27, 2016, 01:04:27 PM »
What is capacitance?

It is not charge but amount of charge that can be stored at a given voltage per quantity of charge stored.

A piezoelectric device takes the mechanical force imparted by the hammer,, it gets distorted and that strain is what moves the electrons,, so that is not what I mean. I mean pressure not force over distance.

I mean a medium that can hold against some amount of polarization under one pressure,, and if you were to change that pressure it would be able to hold against another value, change the capacitance of the dielectric medium between the plates.

If this medium were liquid,, how much work is needed to impart a pressure onto a liquid,, since you are not moving the liquid that would infer no work needed.

Thanks

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Pressure sensitive dielectric
« Reply #6 on: July 27, 2016, 01:04:27 PM »
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