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Author Topic: MH's ideal coil and voltage question  (Read 477854 times)

minnie

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Re: MH's ideal coil and voltage question
« Reply #540 on: May 18, 2016, 09:05:40 AM »



   tinman, forget about concepts and abstractions- you obviously can't handle them.
   They're no use in the "real world" anyhow.
   Forget about 5 Henry inductors- they're too big.
   Make yourself a Maxwell bridge and have a bit of fun learning what that can do.
          John.

tinman

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Re: MH's ideal coil and voltage question
« Reply #541 on: May 18, 2016, 09:55:16 AM »


   
   They're no use in the "real world" anyhow.
   Forget about 5 Henry inductors- they're too big.
   Make yourself a Maxwell bridge and have a bit of fun learning what that can do.
          John.

Quote
tinman, forget about concepts and abstractions- you obviously can't handle them.

Dont give me that crap John,it's not me here thats talking double dutch.

Concepts and abstractions dont cut it,and if i have to be precise ,then so dose everyone else.

Perhaps take some time,and look up the definition of precision. ;)

Keep on reading,and see who is making no sense in this thread.
You continue on with your wollowing's,and yet know no better yourself.


Brad

tinman

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Re: MH's ideal coil and voltage question
« Reply #542 on: May 18, 2016, 10:24:20 AM »








Quote
Well, in this posting I am going to assume that you are not properly conceptualizing what an ideal voltage source does when you pump power into it.

And here we go--MHs paradox that is needed so as he thinks he is not wrong in his statement-but falls apart with another of his own statement's.

So now we have an ideal voltage !source!,that has power pumped into it(a missing component of MHs 2 component circuit),even though it cannot store it ::)
So the ideal voltage source is now just some part that the incoming power passes through(as it cannot store it),and just flows straight into the inductor :o.

A capacitor(a voltage source)that has a voltage across it,contains stored energy.
A battery that has a voltage across it ,contains stored energy.
A sponge that absorb's water,contains that water.

Quote
I cracked a joke because Verpies was just asking a silly question for fun.  Any power that is pumped into an ideal voltage source doesn't go anywhere.  It's simply gone, you can forget about it.  The ideal voltage source is still the same ideal voltage source, nothing has changed.

And this is the best yet.Any power that is pumped into an ideal voltage source doesn't go anywhere.  It's simply gone
You have excelled your self there MH.You have just defied the laws of physics,and now it has to be rewritten. Energy can be transformed from one form to another-and also be destroyed by MHs voltage source ;)
A recap on what you said above in the previous paragraph-->So now we have an ideal voltage !source!,that has power pumped into it
Then in the next paragraph-->Any power that is pumped into an ideal voltage source doesn't go anywhere
So this power that is feeding the voltage source dose not make it to the inductor???,as you have stated it dose not go anywhere--just disappears.
I dont even have to go to any other of your post to put all this together--you have it all in one post MH :D

Quote
Yeah, it contains an infinite amount of energy.  So where does that get you?  If a coil pumps more energy into a "container" that stores an infinite amount of energy then voila!, you still have a container filled with an infinite amount of energy.

So now your ideal voltage source dose contain energy?,or is this just the supply of energy that go's into the voltage source that just disappears?.

Quote
Or, if you want to be "more sophisticated" you can forget about the container altogether and just call it an ideal voltage source.
So it's time to stop spinning your wheels and stop the trash talk.

Have a good look at your own statements above MH,and then ask your self--who is talking trash.
You are so lost it's not funny anymore,and your buddy minnie is not that far behind you.

Brad

tinman

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Re: MH's ideal coil and voltage question
« Reply #543 on: May 18, 2016, 10:30:17 AM »
This is a ridiculous discussion and you are just wasting time.

Here is the answer to your question:  I take a paper napkin and a pen, and I mark a few lines on the napkin, and there is your ideal voltage source and there is no stored energy in sight.  The _idea_ that it can supply energy is in your mind only, and that's all that counts.

Another idiotic statement.
Lets see your paper napkin induce a current into an inductor--see how stupid that sounds MH.

You asked a specific question base around two components.
We know we can get very very close to an ideal inductor in the real world,and !you! have stated many times that we can build an ideal voltage source(which of course we cannot). And now we are going into the land of MHs make believe,by way of lines on a paper napkin to solve MHs question.

And you wonder why i say you are the laughing stock of the forum.
Well we only have to look at the last few of your posts to see why.

Im not interested in following you up the garden path of MH wonder land,where reality give way to paper napkins.


Brad

tinman

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Re: MH's ideal coil and voltage question
« Reply #544 on: May 18, 2016, 10:57:42 AM »
I read every word. How was that post helpful to anyone?



Quote
I encourage you to avoid the so-called rhetorical questions, and instead try to help Brad understand why his thinking on this affair is a little off the tracks
.

My thinking is off track???

It is not me that thinks this ideal voltage source can absorb energy but not contain it.
Did you guys really think about this statement,and how it go's with other agreed upon definitions that have been made about the ideal voltage source?.
Sometime's you EE guys make no sense at all,and it's no wonder people get confused.

We have all agreed that an ideal voltage source dose not dissipate any power,as it's ideal.
If the ideal voltage source can absorb power,but cannot dissipate power-->where is this absorbed power if it is not contained within the ideal voltage source?.
Is it just like MH said,and it just vanishes without a trace--it's just gone--the energy is destroyed?

Do you see how ridiculous this sound's,and how far away from the fundamentals of science this is.
Here you are Poynt,saying that i should agree with what is being presented by the EE guy's here,but there is no way in hell i am going to settle on anything when statements such as above are being asked to be accepted,as statements such as MHs contradict them selves,and the others make no sense at all.

So my question remains--what happens to the stored energy (during the 0 volt part of the cycle),when the negative 3 volt part of the cycle start's?
1-MHs theory-->it just disappears--energy is destroyed.
2-it is stored in the ideal voltage source?
3-it is absorbed by the ideal voltage source that cannot dissipate power=stored in the ideal voltage source.


Unlike MHs mockery of this thread,i wish to solve this question correctly. But while there are nonsensical comments like-energy can be absorbed but not stored in a device that cannot dissipate that absorbed energy,then i will simply not be agreeing to anything.
So maybe you can try and make sense of that ,and let me know what it is,as i know of no other device that can have a voltage across it,but not have stored energy within it. And this rubbish about energy just disappearing by MH,is nothing but a joke.

So to put it simple,how can a component that absorbs energy,but cant dissipate energy,not store that energy?.


Brad

wattsup

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Re: MH's ideal coil and voltage question
« Reply #545 on: May 18, 2016, 12:48:33 PM »
@MH

You really are either willfully ignorant or willfully deceptive.

Give me one reason why for endless pages and pages i would disagree with your question continuously stating to you that ideal voltages do not change in time. @verpies again just confirmed this. You knew all along that we did not "understand" your question because there was no other reason for anyone to object to the question unless they understood the whole process to be one event.

You willfully, and, I have to add with the aid of others who were in the know but decided to just shut up and let the commotion continue endlessly, decided to not clarify the question and leave it as the ambiguous piece of shit it was. You had the choice but you decided to just play along, you fed the fire, you were implicit in this and played us for fools for two weeks.

You knew that one little clarification that would not have given out any of the answers to your question but would have brought more fluency to the question would have solved the whole matter, but you decided to both play your, "I am an EE king and you need to learn boy attitude". So now I know how much of a prick you are and will leave you to play with yourself.

You are an insult to EE teaching and I have to say now that those who knew were the small discrepancy was in this question and did not step forward to provide a correction are no better. But the onus was fully on @MH as he played the teacher fiddle and he knew the question was not in tune but he kept on whipping away enjoying ever minute.

So now, no more trust. You burned that one to hell this time. You played us for fools. You are now off my list. If I ever see you on any of my threads, you will be deleted so don't bother. I have no more trust in your opinions since I know now you are only on this forum to up your own ego. So enjoy it.

@tinman

Listen. I am only going to say this once. If you knew @MH's question involved 6 separate events combined in one sequence, then you had no damn reason to object to his question. So don't pretend you fully understood his question because that would be adding to the pile of bull already on the floor.

@all

All you guys do is play games. Every thread starts holy molly and ends in bullshit. And what did you learn about the coil, F all, but keep on plastering those games all over the placed and wish and wish and wish some more.

wattsup


tinman

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Re: MH's ideal coil and voltage question
« Reply #546 on: May 18, 2016, 01:17:43 PM »
@MH







 

@tinman

Listen. I am only going to say this once. If you knew @MH's question involved 6 separate events combined in one sequence, then you had no damn reason to object to his question. So don't pretend you fully understood his question because that would be adding to the pile of bull already on the floor.



wattsup

And when did i object to his question?
I started this thread to answer his question,not object to it--so i dont know what page you are on,but it's the wrong one.
I fully understood his question from the day i read it,and did not object to the question at all.
I object to the fact that the EE guys think the answer is simple and straight forward,as when you use ideal components,it is never straight forward.

So i really do not know why you have said what you have said,as i do not object to the question,nor have i ever done so--other than the use of ideal components that dont exist being used in the question.
If real world components were used in place of the ideal components,then the answer is pretty straight forward,and that answer would depend on how much information MH required for the answer. Would he want to know things like magnetic field strengths during each part of the cycle?. Would he want to know coil temperatures at the start middle and end of the cycle?.

When you ask--what happens from T=0,leaves a very big list to choose from,and this was unspecified in the question.


Brad

MileHigh

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Re: MH's ideal coil and voltage question
« Reply #547 on: May 18, 2016, 01:44:02 PM »
Wattsup:

You are truly baffling, and even Brad says you are baffling.  From your comments it's like you are on another planet.

Brad:

The only thing you need to know about the ideal voltage source for this question is that it puts out the waveform as described.

So can you move forward now and try to answer the question?

MileHigh

wattsup

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Re: MH's ideal coil and voltage question
« Reply #548 on: May 18, 2016, 01:46:24 PM »
And when did i object to his question?
I started this thread to answer his question,not object to it--so i dont know what page you are on,but it's the wrong one.
I fully understood his question from the day i read it,and did not object to the question at all.
I object to the fact that the EE guys think the answer is simple and straight forward,as when you use ideal components,it is never straight forward.

So i really do not know why you have said what you have said,as i do not object to the question,nor have i ever done so--other than the use of ideal components that dont exist being used in the question.
If real world components were used in place of the ideal components,then the answer is pretty straight forward,and that answer would depend on how much information MH required for the answer. Would he want to know things like magnetic field strengths during each part of the cycle?. Would he want to know coil temperatures at the start middle and end of the cycle?.

When you ask--what happens from T=0,leaves a very big list to choose from,and this was unspecified in the question.


Brad

@tinman

Wow, this is playing out to be one hell of drama here.

I cannot believe if you knew what the actual question meant, you would have had a problem answering it then. The only reason I backed you up in this is because I saw this question as to ambiguous and did not openly imply 6 separate MANUAL settings of voltage. In my book there was no other VALID reason to object to it since we all new it was under ideal conditions. We know ideal conditions do not exist but the way the question was asked was in my book, deceptive in the process, not in the substance.

So good luck then.

Added: When did you object to the question? Just look at the JT thread which is the origin.

@MH

When you ask a question, you know, if your life depended on that question, you would be toast by now. Everyone should just go back and read the question from the stand point of an outsider, not your EE brainiacs perspective. Questions are not for those that are in the know. They are for those that want to understand your viewpoint. It's your view you want to bring across and you did a shitty job of it. I don't know where @tinamn is coming from to say he understood it. If he did, then bads on him. 

Enough of this.

wattsup


MileHigh

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Re: MH's ideal coil and voltage question
« Reply #549 on: May 18, 2016, 01:48:57 PM »
Brad:

Quote
If real world components were used in place of the ideal components,then the answer is pretty straight forward,and that answer would depend on how much information MH required for the answer. Would he want to know things like magnetic field strengths during each part of the cycle?. Would he want to know coil temperatures at the start middle and end of the cycle?.

We already discussed a variation on the question.  How about you answer it where you add an 0.00001 ohm resistance to the 5 Henry coil?  That's the only thing that needs to be added.  The answer will be almost identical, you are free to go that route if you want.

There is no need to know the magnetic field strength, and no need to know the coil temperature.

MileHigh

tinman

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Re: MH's ideal coil and voltage question
« Reply #550 on: May 18, 2016, 02:17:05 PM »
@tinman

Wow, this is playing out to be one hell of drama here.

I cannot believe if you knew what the actual question meant, you would have had a problem answering it then. The only reason I backed you up in this is because I saw this question as to ambiguous and did not openly imply 6 separate MANUAL settings of voltage. In my book there was no other VALID reason to object to it since we all new it was under ideal conditions. We know ideal conditions do not exist but the way the question was asked was in my book, deceptive in the process, not in the substance.

So good luck then.

wattsup

Here is the problem with being able to answer the question using ideal components.

1- if the coil is ideal,then why would not the CEMF be ideal to the EMF that created it?
If the CEMF is ideal,and equal to the EMF,would current ever flow through the coil?.

2- If the voltage source is ideal,it cannot dissipate power. If it absorbs power,and cannot dissipate power,why dose it not store that power as MH says?.

MH says an ideal voltage source can deliver energy,but dose not contain any energy.
He then says that an ideal voltage source can absorb power,and that power just is gone-disappears,no longer exist.

To many holes in the question when ideals are included.
To many holes in MHs explanation.
To many other EE guys agreeing with some of these MH paradoxes that are nonsense.


If we are to come to some sort of correct answer,then these nonsense's need sorting.

To look at the question again

You have an ideal voltage source and an ideal coil of 5 Henrys.  At time t=0 seconds the coil connects to the ideal voltage source. For three seconds the voltage is 4 volts.  Then for the next two seconds the voltage is zero volts. Then for two seconds the voltage is negative three volts, and then for the next six seconds the voltage is 0.5 volts.  Then after that the voltage is zero volts.
What happens from T=0 when the ideal voltage is connected to the ideal coil?.

It is clear that an ideal voltage source delivers a volatge selected by the user,and will maintain that voltage no matter what the load. The voltage value can only be determined and change by the user--not the load.

The user(MH) has selected a voltage of 4 volts to be placed across the ideal coil,for a period of 3 seconds. After the first 3 seconds, he then changes that voltage value to 0 volts,for a period of 2 seconds. After that two seconds is up,he inverts the polarity,and selects a voltage value of 3 volts,for a time period of 2 seconds. After that period of 2 seconds is up,he then selects a voltage value of 500mV for 6 second's. As he dose not mention !negative! at this point,we can assume that the voltage polarity at this point in time,is now back to the original polarity-being the positive polarity. After this 6 second time period,the voltage value is then selected to be 0 volt's.

I do not see the problem in understanding the voltage wave form that would be associated with this question. What i do question is would that actually be the case,and would this ideal circuit follow the same rules as real world components?.


Brad

poynt99

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Re: MH's ideal coil and voltage question
« Reply #551 on: May 18, 2016, 02:22:42 PM »
He also stated -but what happens to  it?.
Yes, that is a good question too.

But I'd like your answer on the concept that the source can and will absorb energy from the inductor.

Do you agree or disagree?

minnie

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Re: MH's ideal coil and voltage question
« Reply #552 on: May 18, 2016, 02:36:55 PM »



   What's the problem?
    I.V.S. able to supply/absorb any amount of current.
    The current through I.V.S. Completely under the control of the external circuit.

partzman

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Re: MH's ideal coil and voltage question
« Reply #553 on: May 18, 2016, 02:58:51 PM »
I know some here and perhaps many that have followed this thread think that this is some kind of futile exercise that has no bearing on our OU efforts so let's get back to work!

Well, consider this- If I should see some kind of odd result in my prospective OU creation, how do I determine if the anomaly I see is the result of some newly discovered function or simply the result of conventional functions that slipped past me because of my lack of understanding. This has happened to me more times than I would like to admit and it is the reason I strive to understand the basics so I will be able to recognize a true anomaly if and when it occurs.

I believe that this was/is the intention of MH when he proposed the original problem as well as others who have contributed along the way.  Whether the problem uses ideal components as originally stated or real world components as later stated, the resulting differences are insignificant. The point is, do I understand how to solve this problem or not?

partzman


tinman

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Re: MH's ideal coil and voltage question
« Reply #554 on: May 18, 2016, 03:13:15 PM »
Yes, that is a good question too.

But I'd like your answer on the concept that the source can and will absorb energy from the inductor.

Do you agree or disagree?

I cannot agree to the ideal voltage source being able to absorb energy if it cannot contain it.
If any energy is absorbed by the ideal voltage source,and that ideal voltage source dose not dissipate energy,then the energy must now be contained in it(the ideal voltage source).

I cannot agree with MHs statement that the energy is just gone-disappears.
MHs question consists of two components only--the ideal voltage source,and the ideal inductor. He has made this apparent many times when he has stated that EMJ and Wattsup could not answer a simple question that involved on two components.
MH also states that the ideal voltage source can deliver energy,but dose not contain energy.

At T=5s, what would the solution below read?
And then again at T=7s,what would the solution below read?.

Brad