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Author Topic: MH's ideal coil and voltage question  (Read 477839 times)

wattsup

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Re: MH's ideal coil and voltage question
« Reply #525 on: May 17, 2016, 11:18:36 PM »
I think the question is clear enough.  A voltage source is connected across an inductor.  The voltage is a step waveform with various voltage levels, what happens?

Some people didn't even know where to begin.  That is very telling.  What happens?  The only unknown is the current, solve for the current.

Honestly, all these words that you are throwing at my question itself are too much.  The question is what it is.

MileHigh

@MH

Your question really involves 6 different experiments, so it should have been questioned as such. Each one would start at their own t0 mark at their respective voltage setting and duration. Each would have produce their individual result. Your question the way it was inferred is that all these events occurred with only one 4V application and nothing else. After the 4V you did not say stop, reset the voltage to 0, wait x seconds, stop reset the voltage to -3, wait x seconds, etc. You said all these events occurred because of the initial first application of 4V. Now do you get it. I don't see why this is so hard to understand. 

If you were writing a technical report with such a question, you would have been fired the next day.

And please don't give this "If you were an EEer you would know what the question meant business". You were  not asking this question to known EEers you were asking it to @tinman and others here. Wonder why no one else dared answer it? Because they were to smart to get involved in the first place. Dumb me all right.

@tinman

Sine wave, square wave, will not change that the question was just badly presented. Since these are 6 individual experiments with the same 5H, there is no point to answer it anymore because the first 2.4 amps gave out the rest of the answers. hehehe

It helped Wattsup to notice that he needs to be more careful with his words.
These are technical posts and every word matters. Making mental shortcuts is sometimes funny but most often it requires "secret decoder rings" from the reader.  Those are not good habits for technical communication.

So now we have established that an ideal voltage source merely needs to have:
- zero internal resistance
- zero internal reactance
- an output voltage that is not affected by the load

...but it does not need to output a constant output voltage all the time, and it can be even an ideal alternating voltage source.

@verpies

I have always appreciated your input regardless of who you respond to it is always a pleasure. That includes @poynt99 and others who know who they are. But you all are not @MH and this is not your question.

So let me ask you this simple simple question.

You have an ideal voltage source of 4V and an ideal inductor of 5H. You apply the voltage at t0 for 5 hours. What will be the voltage read across the terminals at every hour? What will be the current measure at every hour?

You know why I made this easy. hahaha Here is my answer because it has already been said before. The voltage will remain at 4v throughout the 5 hours. The current will rise to 2.4 and remain there for 5 hours. Is this correct or not?

That's all we need to know to ascertain is @MH'S question was well presented of not.

wattsup

MileHigh

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Re: MH's ideal coil and voltage question
« Reply #526 on: May 18, 2016, 12:52:33 AM »
Wattsup:

No, the question involves one experiment.  A standard way to describe a process is chronologically, which is what I did.  Many people have no problem at all with the question.  I am attaching Poynt's graph that shows the voltage waveform that corresponds to the question.  There is no more need to discuss the question.

What we need is progress towards answering the question.

MileHigh

verpies

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Re: MH's ideal coil and voltage question
« Reply #527 on: May 18, 2016, 01:32:56 AM »
You have an ideal voltage source of 4V and an ideal inductor of 5H. You apply the voltage at t0 for 5 hours. What will be the voltage read across the terminals at every hour? What will be the current measure at every hour?
You know why I made this easy. hahaha Here is my answer because it has already been said before. The voltage will remain at 4v throughout the 5 hours.
Yes.
No load is incapable of altering the voltage at the output of an ideal voltage source.

The current will rise to 2.4 and remain there for 5 hours. Is this correct or not?
No, at t0 the current will be zero.
at 1h it will be 2.88kA
at 2h it will be 5.76kA
at 3h it will be 8.64kA
at 4h it will be 11.52kA
at 5h it will be 14.4A
...and it will keep increasing like that at the rate of 2880A per hour, ad infinitum.



tinman

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Re: MH's ideal coil and voltage question
« Reply #528 on: May 18, 2016, 04:07:06 AM »
Brad, verpies is agreeing that some of the energy stored in the inductor can be absorbed by the voltage source. Or at least I think he is.

What are your thoughts now?
My toughts are,because of MHs statement that an ideal voltage source contains no energy,is a clear indication that he would not have been able to answer his question correctly.
You may wish to rethink your stance on MH being able to do so.

Brad

wattsup

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Re: MH's ideal coil and voltage question
« Reply #529 on: May 18, 2016, 04:10:43 AM »
@MH

If you cannot first concede your question was loaded the way it was asked, then you can play with yourself

wattsup


MileHigh

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Re: MH's ideal coil and voltage question
« Reply #530 on: May 18, 2016, 04:33:20 AM »
Brad:

Quote
My toughts are,because of MHs statement that an ideal voltage source contains no energy,is a clear indication that he would not have been able to answer his question correctly.
You may wish to rethink your stance on MH being able to do so.

This is just useless spinning.  You read how I described what an ideal voltage source is.  An ideal voltage source can output or absorb an unlimited amount of power, and by extension, an unlimited amount of energy.  But it does not "contain energy."  It's just a concept, an important tool used all the time in electronics.

Wattsup:

Quote
If you cannot first concede your question was loaded the way it was asked, then you can play with yourself

Sorry, but you failed to make an impression.  Reading you discussing electronics is difficult and stressful.

Let's focus on moving forward.

MileHigh

poynt99

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Re: MH's ideal coil and voltage question
« Reply #531 on: May 18, 2016, 05:39:43 AM »
My toughts are,because of MHs statement that an ideal voltage source contains no energy,is a clear indication that he would not have been able to answer his question correctly.
You may wish to rethink your stance on MH being able to do so.

Brad
I don't wish to change my stance. I know he could.

But that wasn't what my question was about. I said at one point that some of the inductor's energy would be returned to the source, and you disagreed and said it was not possible. And that had nothing to do with MH's statement, this was your own stance. verpies seems to agree with me on this and I'd like to know if this has caused you to reconsider perhaps?

tinman

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Re: MH's ideal coil and voltage question
« Reply #532 on: May 18, 2016, 06:08:03 AM »
Brad:

This is just useless spinning.  You read how I described what an ideal voltage source is.  An ideal voltage source can output or absorb an unlimited amount of power, and by extension, an unlimited amount of energy.  But it does not "contain energy."  It's just a concept, an important tool used all the time in electronics.

Wattsup:

Sorry, but you failed to make an impression.  Reading you discussing electronics is difficult and stressful.

Let's focus on moving forward.

MileHigh

The fact that you dont understand what a !source! Of power is, only means you cannot understand your own question .
Show me any source that can deliver power without that source containing enery.
I await the next MH paradox.

Brad.

tinman

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Re: MH's ideal coil and voltage question
« Reply #533 on: May 18, 2016, 06:23:29 AM »
Brad, verpies is agreeing that some of the energy stored in the inductor can be absorbed by the voltage source. Or at least I think he is.

What are your thoughts now?

He also stated -but what happens to  it?.
Then we look at MHs idiotic reply after that-shows how serious he is about the whole thing.

Verpies said-but what happens to it once it is absorbed?--MH says it cannot be contained within the ideal device that verpies and yourself just stated absorbed it.

Im wondering if you are seeing how stupid this sounds.

A source that can provide power, must contain the energy within it, in order to provide that power.


I remain firm on my position that MH could not possibly  answer his own question,as he dose not even know what a power source is.

Brad

MileHigh

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Re: MH's ideal coil and voltage question
« Reply #534 on: May 18, 2016, 06:29:24 AM »
Brad:

Well, if you are going to push it then we will get to the root of the matter, and it's a use of language issue.  It makes sense to say that a capacitor or an inductor can "contain energy."  It implies that there is a finite and measurable amount of energy in the device.  In contrast, a voltage source has no finite and measurable amount of energy.  It doesn't make sense to say that "A voltage source contains some energy."  An ideal voltage source is not even a tangible device, it's a theoretical device.

In the world of electronics, nobody uses the language construct of an ideal voltage source "containing energy."  That's the way it is, and sometimes you have to go with the flow.  Just because you strung those words together does not mean that it is a valid thing to say.  In fact it is an invalid thing to say and you should just absorb that fact and move on.  When you used the argument that since an inductor can return energy to the ideal voltage source therefore the voltage source "must contain energy," it was simply wrong.  You have to think and choose your words better than that.  An ideal voltage source supplies energy, it does not contain energy.

Most importantly, we are certainly all in agreement on this fact:  The ideal voltage source can supply power to the device it's connected to, and it can even absorb power from the device it's connected to.  There is no disputing this fact by anyone in this debate, and that is the critical factor for advancing this debate.

So don't give us your trash talk that I "dont understand what a !source! of power is."  You are not fooling anybody by a long shot.  It's time for you to move forward in the technical discussion and talk about what we are really here for.

MileHigh

tinman

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Re: MH's ideal coil and voltage question
« Reply #535 on: May 18, 2016, 06:32:40 AM »
Brad:

The simple fact is that you have trouble with abstract concepts.  An example is an ideal voltage source varying in time, you still refuse to believe that.  In the more difficult version of the question the ideal voltage source varies in time.  You need to move on with respect to the ideal voltage source business and just accept it.

An inductor can store energy.  A capacitor can store energy.  A battery can store energy.  But an ideal voltage source does not "store energy."  "How many Joules are in that ideal voltage source?" is a question that makes no sense.  An ideal voltage source is a potentially unlimited source of power.  It is simply "power on tap" and it doesn't make sense to think about it storing energy.

If an inductor returns a finite amount of energy back to an ideal voltage source then that energy is not to be "found inside" the ideal voltage source.  The concept of an ideal short "containing energy" is simply ridiculous.

It's like a jigsaw puzzle were you want to force pieces of the jigsaw puzzle together that don't fit because you said something and the only way to backup your statement is to force some concepts together that don't fit.  It's related to your issue about refusing to accept that you are wrong.

It's time for the discussion to move forward.  What is the complete current waveform and more importantly what are the concepts that explain the current waveform?  The only part of the question that you have answered so far is the fact that the current doesn't change when the ideal voltage source outputs zero volts.  The clues to answering the full question are in this thread.

You have to understand what is taking place in the circuit and why it does what it does if you are going to understand and appreciate the harder version of the question that has already been answered.

MileHigh

No need for any more of you babble MH.
My description of an ideal voltage source is correct,and backed up by verpies. So now your just making your self look stupid.

The fact that you think a source that can deliver power ,dose not contain energy,just go's to show how little you know.
That also means that you could not have answered your question correctly.
You would be trying to explain how a car is able to be powered by an engine,without knowing how that engine works.

Good show MH.


Brad

tinman

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Re: MH's ideal coil and voltage question
« Reply #536 on: May 18, 2016, 06:42:07 AM »
Brad:

Well, if you are going to push it then we will get to the root of the matter, and it's a use of language issue.  It makes sense to say that a capacitor or an inductor can "contain energy."  It implies that there is a finite and measurable amount of energy in the device.  In contrast, a voltage source has no finite and measurable amount of energy.  It doesn't make sense to say that "A voltage source contains some energy."  An ideal voltage source is not even a tangible device, it's a theoretical device.

In the world of electronics, nobody uses the language construct of an ideal voltage source "containing energy."  That's the way it is, and sometimes you have to go with the flow.  Just because you strung those words together does not mean that it is a valid thing to say.  In fact it is an invalid thing to say and you should just absorb that fact and move on.  When you used the argument that since an inductor can return energy to the ideal voltage source therefore the voltage source "must contain energy," it was simply wrong.  You have to think and choose your words better than that.  An ideal voltage source supplies energy, it does not contain energy.

Most importantly, we are certainly all in agreement on this fact:  The ideal voltage source can supply power to the device it's connected to, and it can even absorb power from the device it's connected to.  There is no disputing this fact by anyone in this debate, and that is the critical factor for advancing this debate.

So don't give us your trash talk that I "dont understand what a !source! of power is."  You are not fooling anybody by a long shot.  It's time for you to move forward in the technical discussion and talk about what we are really here for.

MileHigh

We are dealing with facts MH,not some deluded MH version of what an ideal voltage source is.
You are now trying to throw in one of your deluded paradoxes that dose not exist.

In one post you say ideal voltage sources exist,and now you say it's a device that dose not exist in reality.
First you argue with me when i state that an ideal voltage source dosnt exist,and now you agree with me--just to try and bail yourself out of your mistake.

Any voltage source contains energy-show me one that dose not.
If that source could supply an infinite amount of power,then it would contain an infinite amount of energy.

So just provide one example of a voltage source that can supply power,but has no stored energy within that soufce.


Brad

SeaMonkey

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Re: MH's ideal coil and voltage question
« Reply #537 on: May 18, 2016, 06:49:39 AM »
Quote from: Miles Higher
it's a use of language issue.  It makes sense to say that a capacitor or an inductor can "contain energy."  It implies that there is a finite and measurable amount of energy in the device.

Agreed.  The Inductor or Capacitor which is storing
energy
is said to be "Charged."

Quote from: Miles Higher
In contrast, a voltage source has no finite and measurable amount of energy.  It doesn't make sense to say that "A voltage source contains some energy."  An ideal voltage source is not even a tangible device, it's a theoretical device.

Surprisingly, your language and your theory is rather
imprecise Miles.  Is there some Wobble here? ???

Quote from: Miles Higher
In the world of electronics, nobody uses the language construct of an ideal voltage source "containing energy."  That's the way it is, and sometimes you have to go with the flow.
...
When you used the argument that since an inductor can return energy to the ideal voltage source therefore the voltage source "must contain energy," it was simply wrong.  You have to think and choose your words better than that.  An ideal voltage source supplies energy, it does not contain energy.


Now that is definitely Wobbly! So you're actually saying that
you believe a Voltage Source contains no Charge?  That it is
not a repository of Stored Energy?  That it has no Capacity? :o

Miles, that is a Most Unusual Conclusion! ;)

MileHigh

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Re: MH's ideal coil and voltage question
« Reply #538 on: May 18, 2016, 06:50:26 AM »
He also stated -but what happens to  it?.
Then we look at MHs idiotic reply after that-shows how serious he is about the whole thing.

Verpies said-but what happens to it once it is absorbed?--MH says it cannot be contained within the ideal device that verpies and yourself just stated absorbed it.

Im wondering if you are seeing how stupid this sounds.

Brad

Well, in this posting I am going to assume that you are not properly conceptualizing what an ideal voltage source does when you pump power into it.

I cracked a joke because Verpies was just asking a silly question for fun.  Any power that is pumped into an ideal voltage source doesn't go anywhere.  It's simply gone, you can forget about it.  The ideal voltage source is still the same ideal voltage source, nothing has changed.

Quote
A source that can provide power, must contain the energy within it, in order to provide that power.

Yeah, it contains an infinite amount of energy.  So where does that get you?  If a coil pumps more energy into a "container" that stores an infinite amount of energy then voila!, you still have a container filled with an infinite amount of energy.

Or, if you want to be "more sophisticated" you can forget about the container altogether and just call it an ideal voltage source.

So it's time to stop spinning your wheels and stop the trash talk.

MileHigh

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Re: MH's ideal coil and voltage question
« Reply #539 on: May 18, 2016, 07:00:13 AM »

So just provide one example of a voltage source that can supply power,but has no stored energy within that soufce.

Brad

This is a ridiculous discussion and you are just wasting time.

Here is the answer to your question:  I take a paper napkin and a pen, and I mark a few lines on the napkin, and there is your ideal voltage source and there is no stored energy in sight.  The _idea_ that it can supply energy is in your mind only, and that's all that counts.