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Author Topic: MH's ideal coil and voltage question  (Read 477580 times)

tinman

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Re: MH's ideal coil and voltage question
« Reply #300 on: May 14, 2016, 05:04:13 AM »
Tinman,

I did not notice the short circuit you drew into your diagram.  I mistook those arrows for measurement points (only glanced, time is short right now).



PW

Quote
Surely you do not believe that is the equivalent circuit for an ideal inductor with zero resistance.

You forgot to take notice of the rest of the circuit described in MHs question.
This is what i have been trying to explain all along.
That will come soon enough.

Question 2--see diagram below.


Brad

picowatt

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Re: MH's ideal coil and voltage question
« Reply #301 on: May 14, 2016, 05:10:00 AM »
You forgot to take notice of the rest of the circuit described in MHs question.
This is what i have been trying to explain all along.
That will come soon enough.

Question 2--see diagram below.


Brad

Why do you indicate a wire shorting your coil?  You do know that does not represent an ideal inductor don't you?

As you did not specify an ideal wire, just one with no resistance, shall we assume the wire still has inductance (like any wire)?

PW


picowatt

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Re: MH's ideal coil and voltage question
« Reply #302 on: May 14, 2016, 05:25:02 AM »
You forgot to take notice of the rest of the circuit described in MHs question.
This is what i have been trying to explain all along.
That will come soon enough.

Question 2--see diagram below.


Brad

My short answer to question number two as stated in the diagram is yes.

PW

wattsup

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    • Spin Conveyance Theory - For a New Perspective...
Re: MH's ideal coil and voltage question
« Reply #303 on: May 14, 2016, 06:20:16 AM »
@tinman

For your last question, my answer is yes there will always be some form of impulse voltage but nothing that could be considered as gain since the short is bleeding it right away. This would somewhat equal your Lewan test.

@all

OK, then let me ask you guys this crazy question if possible. We will call it a Bizarre Four Stage Coil (BFSC). It is not an ideal coil, just a regular coil with regular copper wire of let's say 16 awg. You can give it the resistance value you want, it should not change the question.

You apply a DC voltage on the BFSC where in the first quarter of the coil the voltage can exist as applied, in the second quarter the voltage cannot exist, in the third quarter the voltage can exist again as applied and in the final quarter the voltage cannot exist again. What is meant by cannot exist just means the voltage will be zero on those quarters of the coil but will not hinder the voltage from continuing to the next quarter as if the previous quarter was not there. This would infer that the voltage would be as applied through the first and third quarters as if the second quarter was not there although the second and third quarters are there but at zero volts. Zero here should not infer infinity.

The inductance of the total coil is 1H. You apply a DC voltage of 10 volts at 5 amps.

The question is what will the current be in each quarter?

Also, to prevent any "that's impossible" drama you can modify this question any way you want as long as you keep the four quarters and their voltage handling attributes.

I will tell you in advance that this is not a trap question but it will lead to a second question that you may not like. This is an example of puzzles I make for myself to verify EE logic. Let's see how objective you guys really are. You can't get more basic the this while still providing a spread that can actually be discussed.

wattsup


tinman

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Re: MH's ideal coil and voltage question
« Reply #304 on: May 14, 2016, 07:04:57 AM »
Why do you indicate a wire shorting your coil?  You do know that does not represent an ideal inductor don't you?

As you did not specify an ideal wire, just one with no resistance,

PW

As we are talking about ideal inductors,i thought you would have nutted that out for your self.\If we are talking about an ideal coil,would it not be wound with ideal wire?--that has no resistance?.

Quote
shall we assume the wire still has inductance (like any wire)?

Makes no difference to the answer to the question.

This is a simple test that can be carried out on the bench using a real coil,and provide the correct result.


Brad

tinman

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Re: MH's ideal coil and voltage question
« Reply #305 on: May 14, 2016, 07:07:07 AM »
Is this loop current steady, or is it continuously-varying with time?
.


Brad
« Last Edit: May 14, 2016, 10:31:32 AM by tinman »

picowatt

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Re: MH's ideal coil and voltage question
« Reply #306 on: May 14, 2016, 07:45:23 AM »
As we are talking about ideal inductors,i thought you would have nutted that out for your self.\If we are talking about an ideal coil,would it not be wound with ideal wire?--that has no resistance?.

The equivalent circuit model for an ideal inductor is not an inductor with a wire shorting across its ends.

You do know that don't you?

PW

minnie

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Re: MH's ideal coil and voltage question
« Reply #307 on: May 14, 2016, 08:07:33 AM »



   The poor tinman is obviously very,very lost here.
   I really like him all the same.
   One needs to go right back to the basic concept and start from there.
        John.

Johan_1955

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Re: MH's ideal coil and voltage question
« Reply #308 on: May 14, 2016, 08:14:40 AM »
The equivalent circuit model for an ideal inductor is not an inductor with a wire shorting across its ends.

You do know that don't you?

PW

Of course you're right, the wire is ... ?

------------

Why not a small EE-Built-Off:

Copper pipe, with water flowing in, 2 cell's of a lead battery with SuperCaps, ......??

Just with all the ideas from, WITH respect our EE's, to make / compensate almost ideaal components from what we have on material, is that maybe and hopefully possible?

That would make lovers / rosa glasses from ................ yep, also me!!

Please, 5 min, YT?

Regards, Johan

tinman

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Re: MH's ideal coil and voltage question
« Reply #309 on: May 14, 2016, 08:38:05 AM »
Tinman,

I did not notice the short circuit you drew into your diagram.  I mistook those arrows for measurement points (only glanced, time is short right now).



PW

Quote
Surely you do not believe that is the equivalent circuit for an ideal inductor with zero resistance.

I believe that is an ideal inductor that a voltage cannot be measured across at any two points when current is flowing through it.

Brad

tinman

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Re: MH's ideal coil and voltage question
« Reply #310 on: May 14, 2016, 08:39:56 AM »


As you did not specify an ideal wire, just one with no resistance, shall we assume the wire still has inductance (like any wire)?

PW

Quote
Why do you indicate a wire shorting your coil?  You do know that does not represent an ideal inductor don't you?

Indeed i do PW--something for you to remember stating when the end result is presented.


Brad

tinman

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Re: MH's ideal coil and voltage question
« Reply #311 on: May 14, 2016, 08:42:11 AM »
My short answer to question number two as stated in the diagram is yes.

PW

As i said,this i would like to see.


Brad

tinman

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Re: MH's ideal coil and voltage question
« Reply #312 on: May 14, 2016, 08:43:15 AM »
The equivalent circuit model for an ideal inductor is not an inductor with a wire shorting across its ends.

You do know that don't you?

PW

Yes i do.
Remember you stated that PW. ;)


Brad

tinman

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Re: MH's ideal coil and voltage question
« Reply #313 on: May 14, 2016, 08:49:46 AM »


   The poor tinman is obviously very,very lost here.
   I really like him all the same.
   One needs to go right back to the basic concept and start from there.
        John.

What one needs to do,is look at MHs circuit as described,and understand what it is.

As soon as you do the MH paradox conversion,where you simply dismiss things like infinite and no resistance,because you !think! they have no meaning due to there value,then you will never arrive at a correct conclusion as to what will happen at T=0

The fact that there is no resistance,is the very reason you do not just dismiss it,just because you think inductance is going to make it obsolete-->big error.

Are you going to have a go at answering MHs question John,or are you just going to continue to say i am wrong,even though you can answer the question your self.
Much like telling some one that they dont know what  the magnetic force is,even though you have no clue of your own as to what it is.
One can only conclude that your statements and remarks toward me ,are nothing more than you riding on the back of MH--and others here as well.
Agree with those you think are correct--not because you have an opinion of your own.


Brad

minnie

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Re: MH's ideal coil and voltage question
« Reply #314 on: May 14, 2016, 08:54:20 AM »



   What is the diagram with a shorted inductor?
       John.